Police search for missing boy with brain tumour removed from hospital by his parents

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  • nethwennethwen Posts: 23,374
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    Ehh??? :confused::confused:

    Of course they can......not only have i actually said so before, i've also discharged myself once from a Hospital and i've mentioned it a few times in this thread! But it has to be done correctly which involves signing a form. Takes all of 30 seconds.

    You cannot just simply walk out without telling the Hospital.

    The family would not have needed to do this if the consultants at the hospital hadn't illegally threatened Mr King with an Emergency Protection Order, for the simple reason that Mr King questioned their treatment, and had done his own research on the internet every night, looking into other options to help his son.
  • saralundsaralund Posts: 3,377
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    Who'd be held accountable then? Where would the blame be laid?

    Parents of the child......or the Authorities?

    Which one?

    Accountable in what way? Legally accountable? Or morally accountable?

    Only the hospital were concerned with legal accountability, because any failure of their care might get them into legal hot water. The family were not concerned about legal accountability because they had done nothing illegal.

    Moral accountability trumps legal accountability for most humans in most cases, does it not?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,044
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    I wonder how many parents in Southampton are now sat there thinking "If little Johnny gets ill. he isn't going under Gary Nicolin"
  • skp20040skp20040 Posts: 66,872
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    SaturnV wrote: »
    Yes you can, it's not a prison. They may prefer that you fill in their form but they can't stop you walking out.

    They cannot stop a mentally capable adult walking out with or without signing formns , they are however legally obliged to act in the case of a minor. I am not saying the hospital acted correctly in it's dealings with the parents they sound as though they did not, but on the subject of a child being removed it is very different to an adult choosing to leave.
  • CrazyChickCrazyChick Posts: 2,554
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    Ehh??? :confused::confused:

    Of course they can......not only have i actually said so before, i've also discharged myself once from a Hospital and i've mentioned it a few times in this thread! But it has to be done correctly which involves signing a form. Takes all of 30 seconds.

    You cannot just simply walk out without telling the Hospital.

    Of course you can. All that form is for, is so the hospital are legally protected if you leave against medical advice. It's not a permission slip- you don't need their permission.
  • Bulletguy1Bulletguy1 Posts: 18,429
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    SaturnV wrote: »
    Yes you can, it's not a prison. They may prefer that you fill in their form but they can't stop you walking out.
    Maybe physically not, but legally you'd be walking a tightrope and would put the Hospital in a dangerous position and yourself at risk.

    Look.....here is an example of what i mean.

    A few years ago i had knee surgery involving general anesthetic. It was a single day admittance and discharge, but on leaving i was verbally told not to drive for three weeks and then given a document stating such which i had to sign.

    What reason do you think that was for?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,044
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    Maybe physically not, but legally you'd be walking a tightrope and would put the Hospital in a dangerous position and yourself at risk.

    Look.....here is an example of what i mean.

    A few years ago i had knee surgery involving general anesthetic. It was a single day admittance and discharge, but on leaving i was verbally told not to drive for three weeks and then given a document stating such which i had to sign.

    What reason do you think that was for?

    That was to let the hospital off the hook if you drove and had an accident, or did further damage to your knee and tried to blame them
  • Bulletguy1Bulletguy1 Posts: 18,429
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    CrazyChick wrote: »
    Of course you can. All that form is for, is so the hospital are legally protected if you leave against medical advice. It's not a permission slip- you don't need their permission.
    BIB is all you needed to say. Obviously it's also for the patients benefit too.

    Of course in the Kings case they left the Hospital wide open for launching a case of neglect and God knows what else the 'ambulance chasing' Lawyers could jump on.

    Brilliant. >:(
  • nethwennethwen Posts: 23,374
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    BIB is all you needed to say. Obviously it's also for the patients benefit too.

    Of course in the Kings case they left the Hospital wide open for launching a case of neglect and God knows what else the 'ambulance chasing' Lawyers could jump on.

    Brilliant. >:(

    None of what you say suggests "neglect". Or child cruelty as the CPS liked to call it.
  • idlewildeidlewilde Posts: 8,698
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    Well i'd say that's damned irresponsible for an adult to do, never mind an adult removing a child without informing and not signing a discharge form.

    Do you not understand yet why the parents did not inform the hospital and simply left? By all accounts they wanted to be formally discharged to try an alternative type of treatment elsewhere, and likely would have been all too happy to sign the discharge form, but the hospital dug its heels in and refused to discharge the child, threatening a court order if they tried to leave
  • Bulletguy1Bulletguy1 Posts: 18,429
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    magratx wrote: »
    That was to let the hospital off the hook if you drove and had an accident, or did further damage to your knee and tried to blame them
    No......that was only part of it.

    In the event of a car accident my Insurance would be instantly voided, i'd find myself facing charges and undoubtedly sued for crazy money.
  • nethwennethwen Posts: 23,374
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    magratx wrote: »
    That was to let the hospital off the hook if you drove and had an accident, or did further damage to your knee and tried to blame them

    And common sense too. Surely a patient would already know that it is inadvisable to drive after having a general anaesthetic.
  • duckyluckyduckylucky Posts: 13,828
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    nethwen wrote: »
    Discernment and intuition. I'm also the type of person to always have hope, however small. And I cannot stand injustices being done to people.

    The family should have never been put through this nightmare. And the fact that the CPS have now: a) withdrawn their European Arrest Warrant b) dropped their child cruelty charges c) dropped plans to force them to return to the UK, confirms that Southampton Hospital, the police and the CPS have all made a MASSIVE boo boo.

    Intuition is one thing . Making statements that something happenec when you were not there is another
    All I wish for is for this child to get what he deserves and the love he needs from his family But my gut tells me there are two sides to this story
    The parents lost trust and perhaps the oncology team lost trust too for a reason
  • kaloukkalouk Posts: 923
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    Ehh??? :confused::confused:

    Of course they can......not only have i actually said so before, i've also discharged myself once from a Hospital and i've mentioned it a few times in this thread! But it has to be done correctly which involves signing a form. Takes all of 30 seconds.

    You cannot just simply walk out without telling the Hospital.

    In a perfect world they probably would have done as you did but we all know that wasn't an option for them due to the hospitals threats. You obviously can just walk out because they did and the police have said they have broken no laws.
  • skp20040skp20040 Posts: 66,872
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    CrazyChick wrote: »
    Of course you can. All that form is for, is so the hospital are legally protected if you leave against medical advice. It's not a permission slip- you don't need their permission.

    The DAMA does not absolve them from legal claims at all and in the case of a child a parent can argue they were not given sufficient advice and sue.

    http://www.nursingtimes.net/Journals/2013/08/05/o/s/v/070813-Children-discharged-against-medical-advice.pdf

    As said here " if a child is taken home by DAMA and this has been judged to be unsafe , the child needs to be brought back to hospital through a Police Protection Order"

    In this case there was no DAMA as the parents took him without the staff knowledge y so the medics had to act, however if the Medcis had had better communications it may never have come to that in the first place, but legally they had no option but to act and the Police had to follow it through.
  • Bulletguy1Bulletguy1 Posts: 18,429
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    nethwen wrote: »
    None of what you say suggests "neglect". Or child cruelty as the CPS liked to call it.
    Unfortunately that's the path this would have undoubtedly gone down had the Authorities done absolutely nothing and the little boy died in the back of a car travelling 'somewhere in the middle of Europe'!

    Folk here would be screeching from the rooftops.

    As i've said before. Damned when they do......damned when they don't.
  • nethwennethwen Posts: 23,374
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    Unfortunately that's the path this would have undoubtedly gone down had the Authorities done absolutely nothing and the little boy died in the back of a car travelling 'somewhere in the middle of Europe'!

    Folk here would be screeching from the rooftops.

    That is the very path that the authorities did go down, and it has been proven that it is without any basis whatsoever.

    What, say, if any other patient was sent abroad for treatment by the NHS and they died on the way there. Whose responsibility would it be with then?
  • Bulletguy1Bulletguy1 Posts: 18,429
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    nethwen wrote: »
    And common sense too. Surely a patient would already know that it is inadvisable to drive after having a general anaesthetic.
    That won't stand up in a Court. Hospitals have to factor in stupidity.......and they undoubtedly get a lot of that!
  • nethwennethwen Posts: 23,374
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    That won't stand up in a Court. Hospitals have to factor in stupidity.......and they undoubtedly get a lot of that!

    So are you now saying that, if the hospital hadn't advised you not to drive your car after your operation, that you wouldn't have known about any of it?
  • Bulletguy1Bulletguy1 Posts: 18,429
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    nethwen wrote: »
    That is the very path that the authorities did go down, and it has been proven that it is without any basis whatsoever.
    No it wasn't. They were eventually located after French and Spanish Police had been alerted. The parents could have avoided all that.......if they'd wanted to.
    nethwen wrote: »
    What, say, if any other patient was sent abroad for treatment by the NHS and they died on the way there. Whose responsibility would it be with then?
    Just as yourself, i have no idea exactly how that works but would imagine the patient concerned would be covered by the NHS until they were at their destination.

    That's not unreasonable to expect.
  • nethwennethwen Posts: 23,374
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    No it wasn't. They were eventually located after French and Spanish Police had been alerted. The parents could have avoided all that.......if they'd wanted to.

    The reason why has already been explained to you over and over again.
    Just as yourself, i have no idea exactly how that works but would imagine the patient concerned would be covered by the NHS until they were at their destination.

    That's not unreasonable to expect.

    So the NHS would pay out a huge amount of money to the patient's family then? I don't think so myself.
  • Bulletguy1Bulletguy1 Posts: 18,429
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    nethwen wrote: »
    So are you now saying that, if the hospital hadn't advised you not to drive your car after your operation, that you wouldn't have known about any of it?
    I knew for sure i wouldn't be able to drive for 48hrs due to having a general, but hadn't expected it to be three weeks. However it was the first time i'd had a knew operation so i soon discovered it was going to take much longer!

    TBH i felt physically ok to drive by the end of the second week but obviously didn't.

    Another point worth mentioning. Hospitals won't even allow you to return home in a Taxi after a 'general' now. It has to be either a family member or friend and they are supposed to stay with you. My son lives in London but at the time was visiting friends here so it worked out.
  • skp20040skp20040 Posts: 66,872
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    nethwen wrote: »
    And common sense too. Surely a patient would already know that it is inadvisable to drive after having a general anaesthetic.

    People know a lot of things that are unadvisable but they still do them, when I was in hospital recently they would not let me leave until they actually spoke to the person waiting to pick me up and that was after a sedative not a GA.
  • nethwennethwen Posts: 23,374
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    I knew for sure i wouldn't be able to drive for 48hrs due to having a general, but hadn't expected it to be three weeks. However it was the first time i'd had a knew operation so i soon discovered it was going to take much longer!

    TBH i felt physically ok to drive by the end of the second week but obviously didn't.

    Obviously I don't know, but was the reason that you shouldn't drive for so long due mainly to putting pressure on your knee rather than the effects of the general anaesthetic, which would have presumably worn off after a day or two?
  • benjaminibenjamini Posts: 32,066
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    Bulletguy1 wrote: »
    That won't stand up in a Court. Hospitals have to factor in stupidity.......and they undoubtedly get a lot of that!

    Criminalising stupidity:o hell they better start building prisons at a rate of knots.
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