I have just been looking at the ratings for the first couple of stories of Troughton....the first actor being involved in such a massive change for the show, when the audience before him would have only known one person as the Doctor....and even the concept of regeneration didn't even have that name....
And they are all consistant enough.....ranging roughly 7 million....more so than the last three stories of Hartnell...
Surely it was a huge risk then replacing a well loved actor....and yet the majority of the audience accepted Troughton with open arms.....
Agreed. I'm not fussed about a female Doctor, either. I don't really see it happening but, if it did, I'd wait for a few episodes to see what she was like - same as I would with any other Doctor.
I agree. James Bond: Male.
The Doctor: Male
Santa Claus: Male
Imagine the uproar if James Bond became Jane Bond or Santa became Santa Maria Claus!
Some things are because they just are. The Doctor as a female is a terrible idea. I wouldn't watch. Many others wouldn't either.
While I agree that the Doctor shouldn't be made female (because making radical changes to a character is usually indicative of desperation on the part of the writers, and is a major symptom of shark-jumping), it's not fair to compare to those characters, because you're comparing the creation of a female version of a character to actually changing the sex of an existing character.
For a counter-example, look at the revamped Battlestar Galactica - they took Starbuck, one of the most iconic and male characters from the original, and made him female. Yes, there was outrage. No, it didn't affect the show negatively, and most people ended up seeing the character positively.
While I agree that the Doctor shouldn't be made female (because making radical changes to a character is usually indicative of desperation on the part of the writers, and is a major symptom of shark-jumping), it's not fair to compare to those characters, because you're comparing the creation of a female version of a character to actually changing the sex of an existing character.
For a counter-example, look at the revamped Battlestar Galactica - they took Starbuck, one of the most iconic and male characters from the original, and made him female. Yes, there was outrage. No, it didn't affect the show negatively, and most people ended up seeing the character positively.
i agree with your points but I was merely trying to suggest that male characters are male characters for a reason and should be left as such. there are some great iconic female characters too and in the same way should never be cast to a male.
While I agree that the Doctor shouldn't be made female (because making radical changes to a character is usually indicative of desperation on the part of the writers, and is a major symptom of shark-jumping), it's not fair to compare to those characters, because you're comparing the creation of a female version of a character to actually changing the sex of an existing character.
For a counter-example, look at the revamped Battlestar Galactica - they took Starbuck, one of the most iconic and male characters from the original, and made him female. Yes, there was outrage. No, it didn't affect the show negatively, and most people ended up seeing the character positively.
While I agree that the Doctor shouldn't be made female (because making radical changes to a character is usually indicative of desperation on the part of the writers, and is a major symptom of shark-jumping), it's not fair to compare to those characters, because you're comparing the creation of a female version of a character to actually changing the sex of an existing character.
For a counter-example, look at the revamped Battlestar Galactica - they took Starbuck, one of the most iconic and male characters from the original, and made him female. Yes, there was outrage. No, it didn't affect the show negatively, and most people ended up seeing the character positively.
I didn't, I thought it was absurd. But then, I won't watch new BSG anyway, I loathe crappy remakes. If it ain't Dirk Benedict, it ain't Starbuck, and if it doesn't have Lorne Greene, it ain't BSG.
Only if you can prove that the audience indeed would turn away from the show if a female takes the role....then maybe they wouldn't want to take the risk....
....
I truly do not believe they will take the risk. Not when there is so much money at stake. Most episodes cost about half a million, sometimes more. The minute the ratings crash then the show is gone.
And the casting is paramount. I remember the eighties where we had Davison, Colin and McCoy. Male and white - yes, but the audience didnt like it. Ratings fell and the show was eventually cancelled.
Money talks nowadays. Male and white is safe and bankable. Female is just not bankable enough and too risky - especially in a show with a longrunning male lead.
I didn't, I thought it was absurd. But then, I won't watch new BSG anyway, I loathe crappy remakes. If it ain't Dirk Benedict, it ain't Starbuck, and if it doesn't have Lorne Greene, it ain't BSG.
You know what, we probably guessed that before you said it...
Why do you like the DW and Star Trek books then, given that William Shatner and Tom Baker aren't portraying the characters?
I didn't, I thought it was absurd. But then, I won't watch new BSG anyway, I loathe crappy remakes. If it ain't Dirk Benedict, it ain't Starbuck, and if it doesn't have Lorne Greene, it ain't BSG.
My twopeneth: Firstly, I wouldn't be enthralled, but for different reasons. As a female I like my doctors to be male, call me shallow that's what I like (I can drool over them:p). To a certain degree it feels like I could go travelling with him. With regard to whether it is possible or not, I agree with some people on here that we do not know what is possible or not (I think CE was talking about ending up with two heads, didn't he). He might have been joking, but maybe he was serious, although according to MS humans look like time lords, which obviously means they don't have two head (I'm rambling).
Forgot to quote her, but in essence I agree with Crazzy if it ever happened I would wait and see, it could work depending on the writers and if it isn't a desperate attempt to boost viewing figures. I think many people thought a younger doctor wouldn't work, and how wrong were they?
With regard to a Asian or African doctor, I can't see anything wrong with that either. Along many lines, the doctor has been a bit too London-Anglocentric for me anyway. Surely in a multi-cultural society, an alien from another planet has to adapt to many different races.
As a female I like my doctors to be male, call me shallow that's what I like (I can drool over them:p). To a certain degree it feels like I could go travelling with him.
That's very shallow. I'm shocked. :eek:
I wouldn't mind travelling with the Doctor and I don't fancy him.
Looks like tingramretro is right - us chaps are better than you girlies.
I wouldn't mind travelling with the Doctor and I don't fancy him.
Looks like tingramretro is right - us chaps are better than you girlies.
Well at least you agree with him on one point:p:D. I'm not even going to defend myself. I'm sure you never drooled over ... lets say Mary Tamm, or any of the other ladies.
I will continue to drool over each doctor regardless of age, race and, if pushed, gender:p:cool:. RTD educated me well:p
And the casting is paramount. I remember the eighties where we had Davison, Colin and McCoy. Male and white - yes, but the audience didnt like it. Ratings fell and the show was eventually cancelled.
Sorry to contradict, but for the most part the audience were fine with those actors. Ratings didn't start falling noticeably until McCoy's first season, which was more to do with the scheduling than anything else, and Davison in particular was very popular. To say that audiences 'didn't like' Who in the eighties and it was cancelled as a result when it successfully saw out the entire decade makes little sense: if it was that unpopular throughout, it would never have lasted until 1989!
Sorry to contradict, but for the most part the audience were fine with those actors. Ratings didn't start falling noticeably until McCoy's first season, which was more to do with the scheduling than anything else, and Davison in particular was very popular. To say that audiences 'didn't like' Who in the eighties and it was cancelled as a result when it successfully saw out the entire decade makes little sense: if it was that unpopular throughout, it would never have lasted until 1989!
I agree with you there, it wasn't the actors fault it failed. There were lots of politics going on.
I agree. James Bond: Male.
The Doctor: Male
Santa Claus: Male
Imagine the uproar if James Bond became Jane Bond or Santa became Santa Maria Claus!
Some things are because they just are. The Doctor as a female is a terrible idea. I wouldn't watch. Many others wouldn't either.
Thing is though...I'm not sure that argument even applies to the Doctor....okay lets look at it this way, how much of the Doctor being "male" affects his personality, his thinking, his intelligence, his behaviour, his lifestyle, his actions....other than just well looking what we label as a male? chances are the theanswer to many of those things is that all of those are the way they are because he is the Doctor...not because he happensto be a "he".....if the Doctor became female...yeah sure we may see the character wearing dresses...we may not...but is that any different to one Doctor who chooses to wear a leather Jacket...and another a techni-colour coat??? the Doctor will still be the Doctor....his personlaity changes anyway...so I don't see why a famel Doctor would be classed as a change too far when a change of personality and tastes comes with the job...
Even Hamlet, a play that was written about a male, a son who wants to avenge the death of his father...has been played by women.....(in Shakespearen time it would have been a male playing a woman, playing a man...okay that is a different play...but the point still stands;))
If people are worried that all of a sudden the Doctor turning femalemeans that the Doctor will have a thing for the males...well a lot of old school fans feel that the Doctor is asexual...so again the sex of the Doctor can't determine his/her sexaulity (niether does it always for some one is a sexual being...ie...Capt Jack or us humans)...so I am not sure that making the Dctor male or female changes the character anymore than having 11 different actors already does...and more importantly this is a character that recoginises others for who they are as a person...not their sex or race....so he definitely wouldn't agree with this notion that James Bond can't be a female;)
While I agree that the Doctor shouldn't be made female (because making radical changes to a character is usually indicative of desperation on the part of the writers, and is a major symptom of shark-jumping), it's not fair to compare to those characters, because you're comparing the creation of a female version of a character to actually changing the sex of an existing character.
For a counter-example, look at the revamped Battlestar Galactica - they took Starbuck, one of the most iconic and male characters from the original, and made him female. Yes, there was outrage. No, it didn't affect the show negatively, and most people ended up seeing the character positively.
exactly....few fans threw a tantrum....but this show has become more critically accliamed than the original....
I truly do not believe they will take the risk. Not when there is so much money at stake. Most episodes cost about half a million, sometimes more. The minute the ratings crash then the show is gone.
And the casting is paramount. I remember the eighties where we had Davison, Colin and McCoy. Male and white - yes, but the audience didnt like it. Ratings fell and the show was eventually cancelled.
Money talks nowadays. Male and white is safe and bankable. Female is just not bankable enough and too risky - especially in a show with a longrunning male lead.
Your argument just proved that male and white is not a safe bet at all....because if it was then surely the show would have not been cancelled at all in 1989...and it shows that other factors can play in a shows failure.....money does talk...and if they find a perfect actress, and the show is good as ever ie brilliant stories...and people fall in love with, just like the change that happend when Troughton took over...no harm will be done...
The females of this show have been equally as popular as the Doctor...and there are plenty of shows where women are the main leads...so this idea that women arenot bankable is a little strange...
The BBC have taken risks before with this show when fans have been up in arms....in the new series so far they have been fruitful...who knows about the future....but you can't predict what the audience will definitely feel...
As Douglas Adams once said "If the programme didn't move and take a few risks then it would have died of boredom years ago"
My twopeneth: Firstly, I wouldn't be enthralled, but for different reasons.As a female I like my doctors to be male, call me shallow that's what I like (I can drool over them). To a certain degree it feels like I could go travelling with him. With regard to whether it is possible or not, I agree with some people on here that we do not know what is possible or not (I think CE was talking about ending up with two heads, didn't he). He might have been joking, but maybe he was serious, although according to MS humans look like time lords, which obviously means they don't have two head (I'm rambling).
Forgot to quote her, but in essence I agree with Crazzy if it ever happened I would wait and see, it could work depending on the writers and if it isn't a desperate attempt to boost viewing figures. I think many people thought a younger doctor wouldn't work, and how wrong were they?
With regard to a Asian or African doctor, I can't see anything wrong with that either. Along many lines, the doctor has been a bit too London-Anglocentric for me anyway. Surely in a multi-cultural society, an alien from another planet has to adapt to many different races.
Don't worry sis...i feel the same!!!! and my only argument to be against the female Doctor for now.....;):D
Although even I don't drool for all of them:p...I just don't mind the Doctor being male forever at all....
Sorry to contradict, but for the most part the audience were fine with those actors. Ratings didn't start falling noticeably until McCoy's first season, which was more to do with the scheduling than anything else, and Davison in particular was very popular. To say that audiences 'didn't like' Who in the eighties and it was cancelled as a result when it successfully saw out the entire decade makes little sense: if it was that unpopular throughout, it would never have lasted until 1989!
Nice to have something to agree on in quite a while.....
If The Doctor had had a few female incarnations en route to this point, I wouldn't see it being a problem, but as they've been all male Doctors, I think it would too radical depature.
Saying that, I did enjoy Joanna Lumley as The Doctor in The Curse Of The Fatal Death.....especially her Dalek Bumps, though we never got to see the on-switch......:(:D
No it just indicates that a Time Lord changing sex is a Taboo subject in Time Lord Society and it is not supposed to happen.
It would apply equally if Romana was to reappear and regenerate into a man.
Don't be disgusting!:mad:
Speaking as someone to whom Lalla Ward was very important for a lot of vaguely defined reasons at the age of 11, I feel traumatised by that remark...
Oh, those rumours. Nothing to them, at least as far as Billy goes - maybe a woman at some point in the future, but not too soon. I don't think they're brave enough to mess with the format that much yet.
I don't think we'll ever see the Doctor, as played from William Hartnel to Tom Baker to Matt Smith, regenerate into a woman- as Johnnysaucepn pointed out, it would probably be seen as a gimmick and a sign that the production team were getting desperate.
It might be interesting, however, to do a parallel-universe story where we see a female Doctor and her male companion (like in that Red Dwarf ep where they met their female counterparts).
Don't be disgusting!:mad:
Speaking as someone to whom Lalla Ward was very important for a lot of vaguely defined reasons at the age of 11, I feel traumatised by that remark...
You obviously did not read my previous posts on this subject.
My point was that if they were to go with a female Doctor in Doctor Who then they could not just do the regeneration aftermath as if it was a normal thing that had just happened.
If I was producing a series when this happened I would have the story develop that Time Lords changing sex during regeneration is not supposed to happen and that Time Lord Society found the whole concept distasteful and it was a taboo subject.
This would lead to the regeneration aftermath being longer and the effect on The Doctor (or any other Time Lord/Lady) would be very profound and devastating.
Of course he/she would eventually come to terms with this happening. In fact The Doctor’s journey of coming to terms with it could mirror the audiences attempt to come to terms with something like this happening.
However I don’t think it will happen as I don’t think that the BBC are brave enough to allow this to happen and the standard of the writing would have to be far better than it is now.
If we do end up with a female Doctor, in the interests of equality and balance, how about a Mr Marple?
Ah, of course, silly me. It doesn't work that way around...
The Doctor is a male, end of. Sorry if that offends, but there it is.
Perhaps those calling for a female Doctor might consider devising a new character instead instead of trying to impose gender politics on an existing one.
If we do end up with a female Doctor, in the interests of equality and balance, how about a Mr Marple?
Ah, of course, silly me. It doesn't work that way around...
The Doctor is a male, end of. Sorry if that offends, but there it is.
What a well constructed argument! You've certainly convinced me.
Perhaps those calling for a female Doctor might consider devising a new character instead instead of trying to impose gender politics on an existing one.
I'm afraid you've brought quite a lot of baggage to this argument that simply doesn't exist. Nobody here is advocating a female doctor on the basis of equality or the kind of (frankly non-existent) political correctness that so irritates the daily mail. This is a debate about whether or not it would be in the interests of th character, or whether we think it would harm the stories.
If we do end up with a female Doctor, in the interests of equality and balance, how about a Mr Marple?
Ah, of course, silly me. It doesn't work that way around...
The Doctor is a male, end of. Sorry if that offends, but there it is.
Perhaps those calling for a female Doctor might consider devising a new character instead instead of trying to impose gender politics on an existing one.
What a well constructed argument! You've certainly convinced me.
I'm afraid you've brought quite a lot of baggage to this argument that simply doesn't exist. Nobody here is advocating a female doctor on the basis of equality or the kind of (frankly non-existent) political correctness that so irritates the daily mail. This is a debate about whether or not it would be in the interests of th character, or whether we think it would harm the stories.
Comments
And they are all consistant enough.....ranging roughly 7 million....more so than the last three stories of Hartnell...
Surely it was a huge risk then replacing a well loved actor....and yet the majority of the audience accepted Troughton with open arms.....
exactly....
I agree. James Bond: Male.
The Doctor: Male
Santa Claus: Male
Imagine the uproar if James Bond became Jane Bond or Santa became Santa Maria Claus!
Some things are because they just are. The Doctor as a female is a terrible idea. I wouldn't watch. Many others wouldn't either.
For a counter-example, look at the revamped Battlestar Galactica - they took Starbuck, one of the most iconic and male characters from the original, and made him female. Yes, there was outrage. No, it didn't affect the show negatively, and most people ended up seeing the character positively.
i agree with your points but I was merely trying to suggest that male characters are male characters for a reason and should be left as such. there are some great iconic female characters too and in the same way should never be cast to a male.
It's just the way it is and should always be.
James Bond: Human
The Doctor: Alien
Santa Claus: Folk legend
Hardly comparable figures in modern culture. Might as well compare a tomato, moon rock and pixie dust.
Good argument.
Good points here, though.
I didn't, I thought it was absurd. But then, I won't watch new BSG anyway, I loathe crappy remakes. If it ain't Dirk Benedict, it ain't Starbuck, and if it doesn't have Lorne Greene, it ain't BSG.
I truly do not believe they will take the risk. Not when there is so much money at stake. Most episodes cost about half a million, sometimes more. The minute the ratings crash then the show is gone.
And the casting is paramount. I remember the eighties where we had Davison, Colin and McCoy. Male and white - yes, but the audience didnt like it. Ratings fell and the show was eventually cancelled.
Money talks nowadays. Male and white is safe and bankable. Female is just not bankable enough and too risky - especially in a show with a longrunning male lead.
You know what, we probably guessed that before you said it...
Why do you like the DW and Star Trek books then, given that William Shatner and Tom Baker aren't portraying the characters?
I've just had a feeling of deja vu:)
Me too:D:D.
My twopeneth: Firstly, I wouldn't be enthralled, but for different reasons. As a female I like my doctors to be male, call me shallow that's what I like (I can drool over them:p). To a certain degree it feels like I could go travelling with him. With regard to whether it is possible or not, I agree with some people on here that we do not know what is possible or not (I think CE was talking about ending up with two heads, didn't he). He might have been joking, but maybe he was serious, although according to MS humans look like time lords, which obviously means they don't have two head (I'm rambling).
Forgot to quote her, but in essence I agree with Crazzy if it ever happened I would wait and see, it could work depending on the writers and if it isn't a desperate attempt to boost viewing figures. I think many people thought a younger doctor wouldn't work, and how wrong were they?
With regard to a Asian or African doctor, I can't see anything wrong with that either. Along many lines, the doctor has been a bit too London-Anglocentric for me anyway. Surely in a multi-cultural society, an alien from another planet has to adapt to many different races.
That's very shallow. I'm shocked. :eek:
I wouldn't mind travelling with the Doctor and I don't fancy him.
Looks like tingramretro is right - us chaps are better than you girlies.
Well at least you agree with him on one point:p:D. I'm not even going to defend myself. I'm sure you never drooled over ... lets say Mary Tamm, or any of the other ladies.
I will continue to drool over each doctor regardless of age, race and, if pushed, gender:p:cool:. RTD educated me well:p
I agree with you there, it wasn't the actors fault it failed. There were lots of politics going on.
Thing is though...I'm not sure that argument even applies to the Doctor....okay lets look at it this way, how much of the Doctor being "male" affects his personality, his thinking, his intelligence, his behaviour, his lifestyle, his actions....other than just well looking what we label as a male? chances are the theanswer to many of those things is that all of those are the way they are because he is the Doctor...not because he happensto be a "he".....if the Doctor became female...yeah sure we may see the character wearing dresses...we may not...but is that any different to one Doctor who chooses to wear a leather Jacket...and another a techni-colour coat??? the Doctor will still be the Doctor....his personlaity changes anyway...so I don't see why a famel Doctor would be classed as a change too far when a change of personality and tastes comes with the job...
Even Hamlet, a play that was written about a male, a son who wants to avenge the death of his father...has been played by women.....(in Shakespearen time it would have been a male playing a woman, playing a man...okay that is a different play...but the point still stands;))
If people are worried that all of a sudden the Doctor turning femalemeans that the Doctor will have a thing for the males...well a lot of old school fans feel that the Doctor is asexual...so again the sex of the Doctor can't determine his/her sexaulity (niether does it always for some one is a sexual being...ie...Capt Jack or us humans)...so I am not sure that making the Dctor male or female changes the character anymore than having 11 different actors already does...and more importantly this is a character that recoginises others for who they are as a person...not their sex or race....so he definitely wouldn't agree with this notion that James Bond can't be a female;)
exactly....few fans threw a tantrum....but this show has become more critically accliamed than the original....
What? What? WHAT???????
Your argument just proved that male and white is not a safe bet at all....because if it was then surely the show would have not been cancelled at all in 1989...and it shows that other factors can play in a shows failure.....money does talk...and if they find a perfect actress, and the show is good as ever ie brilliant stories...and people fall in love with, just like the change that happend when Troughton took over...no harm will be done...
The females of this show have been equally as popular as the Doctor...and there are plenty of shows where women are the main leads...so this idea that women arenot bankable is a little strange...
The BBC have taken risks before with this show when fans have been up in arms....in the new series so far they have been fruitful...who knows about the future....but you can't predict what the audience will definitely feel...
As Douglas Adams once said "If the programme didn't move and take a few risks then it would have died of boredom years ago"
Don't worry sis...i feel the same!!!! and my only argument to be against the female Doctor for now.....;):D
Although even I don't drool for all of them:p...I just don't mind the Doctor being male forever at all....
Nice to have something to agree on in quite a while.....
No it just indicates that a Time Lord changing sex is a Taboo subject in Time Lord Society and it is not supposed to happen.
It would apply equally if Romana was to reappear and regenerate into a man.
Saying that, I did enjoy Joanna Lumley as The Doctor in The Curse Of The Fatal Death.....especially her Dalek Bumps, though we never got to see the on-switch......:(:D
Don't be disgusting!:mad:
Speaking as someone to whom Lalla Ward was very important for a lot of vaguely defined reasons at the age of 11, I feel traumatised by that remark...
I don't think we'll ever see the Doctor, as played from William Hartnel to Tom Baker to Matt Smith, regenerate into a woman- as Johnnysaucepn pointed out, it would probably be seen as a gimmick and a sign that the production team were getting desperate.
It might be interesting, however, to do a parallel-universe story where we see a female Doctor and her male companion (like in that Red Dwarf ep where they met their female counterparts).
You obviously did not read my previous posts on this subject.
My point was that if they were to go with a female Doctor in Doctor Who then they could not just do the regeneration aftermath as if it was a normal thing that had just happened.
If I was producing a series when this happened I would have the story develop that Time Lords changing sex during regeneration is not supposed to happen and that Time Lord Society found the whole concept distasteful and it was a taboo subject.
This would lead to the regeneration aftermath being longer and the effect on The Doctor (or any other Time Lord/Lady) would be very profound and devastating.
Of course he/she would eventually come to terms with this happening. In fact The Doctor’s journey of coming to terms with it could mirror the audiences attempt to come to terms with something like this happening.
However I don’t think it will happen as I don’t think that the BBC are brave enough to allow this to happen and the standard of the writing would have to be far better than it is now.
Ah, of course, silly me. It doesn't work that way around...
The Doctor is a male, end of. Sorry if that offends, but there it is.
Perhaps those calling for a female Doctor might consider devising a new character instead instead of trying to impose gender politics on an existing one.
I'm afraid you've brought quite a lot of baggage to this argument that simply doesn't exist. Nobody here is advocating a female doctor on the basis of equality or the kind of (frankly non-existent) political correctness that so irritates the daily mail. This is a debate about whether or not it would be in the interests of th character, or whether we think it would harm the stories.
Which it would, because it would be ridiculous.