Clara vs The Doctor: the row

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Whose side are you on ?

The row they had: whose side are you on ? The Doctor's or Clara's ? 154 votes

The Doctor's
48% 75 votes
Clara's
31% 48 votes
Neither
20% 31 votes
«13

Comments

  • James FrederickJames Frederick Posts: 53,184
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    Neither and both

    I can see both POV's and agree with them both to a point but also disagree with them both.
  • doctor blue boxdoctor blue box Posts: 7,243
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    The doctor's of course. She felt like she'd effectively been treated like a child, but in her anger, which was mainly caused by the fear she had just experienced, she failed to realise that he intended the exact opposite and was actually giving her and humanity a chance to prove to them he respects them enough to make their own decisions.
  • LightMeUpLightMeUp Posts: 1,915
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    I was on her side.

    Though I am female and full of these pesky hormones so I suppose I would wouldn't I!?

    In all seriousness, she had a point. What he did was patronising and misjudged. That said, I don't think he meant any harm.
  • AbominationAbomination Posts: 6,483
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    I am definitely on Clara's side.

    You shouldn't be scared by the propsects that your friends put you through. The Doctor took Clara there, she had absolutely no will of her own when it came to being put in that situation. She had the responsibility of Courtney as it was, and though given the choices of humanity was never given the choice of opting out of that decision as an individual. The Doctor was wrapped up in the concept of in flux moments and the wider concept of humanity that he lost sight of his individual companion who is just one person.

    And whilst the Doctor raises a valid point of humanity making choices for itself, it still wasn't right to put that decision in Clara's hands. Earth might be her home planet, but 2049 is not her world.

    All said and done, I still feel sorry for The Doctor as well. I don't think he did what he did out of spite, he just sees things very differently to her.
  • ryanr554ryanr554 Posts: 4,013
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    I think the whole thing is stupid and really out of character for the Doctor anyway. Since when has he ever let anyone else make decisions like that. So what if it is their moon, you have protected their earth a thousand times before without their bloody consent.

    It was so forced so they could prove Danny right about the doctor pushing Clara too far.
  • AbominationAbomination Posts: 6,483
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    ryanr554 wrote: »
    I think the whole thing is stupid and really out of character for the Doctor anyway. Since when has he ever let anyone else make decisions like that.

    The Doctor did the same in Series 5's Cold Blood, stepping aside to allow humans to discuss ownership of the whole planet with Silurians. It was a small number speaking on behalf of each species then as well.

    This time he overstepped the mark, arguably, and that was addressed as the very point of the episode.
  • James FrederickJames Frederick Posts: 53,184
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    ryanr554 wrote: »
    I think the whole thing is stupid and really out of character for the Doctor anyway. Since when has he ever let anyone else make decisions like that. So what if it is their moon, you have protected their earth a thousand times before without their bloody consent.

    It was so forced so they could prove Danny right about the doctor pushing Clara too far.

    He has not just protected Earth but the universe and all the innocent in it.

    This was not some evil alien trying to destroy-rule the world it was a innocent baby just trying to be born.

    So he had a choice protect the Earth and kill a unborn baby and the last/only of it's kind or let it be born and kill everyone on Earth.

    I agree it was not his choice to make
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5
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    She only had the outburst due to Danny Pink's intervention last week. It was completely out of character given what she has experienced until now.
  • MinkytheDogMinkytheDog Posts: 5,658
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    This time he overstepped the mark, arguably, and that was addressed as the very point of the episode.

    You missed the point - he already knew exactly what was going to happen (that whole speech on the beach detailed the events that he already knew followed as a direct result of the space creature being born) - so there was no point at which he actually gave anyone any genuine "choice" in anything.

    What he was doing was showing Clara that you can't always make "simple choices" because there's no real "right and wrong" in most cases - you have to make some decisions and live with them cos the choices are bad and bad. He even made the point about the situation being "grey". He also knew a lot more about the whole situation than he let on - he didn't "accidentally" take the future President of the USA to the moon on the very day that the future President of the USA just happened to have sent that shuttle to deal with that problem.

    It's obvious that the Doctor is fully aware of something that we have not been shown or told - as yet. It's likely that it's related to Clara's future - he knows something about it that involves her making a choice. That choice is likely to involve the Doctor and danny - it could be staying with one of them but it could equally be a choice of saving one and letting the other die. The latter seems more likely given the various scenes of the Doctor making the same choices and seemingly accepting that some people can't be saved cos they are "already dead".
  • Xmas_TrenzaloreXmas_Trenzalore Posts: 550
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    Neither.

    The Doctor went by his moral code, that he shouldn't interfere at critical moments, and he genuinely didn't comprehend the severity of that act because his latest incarnation isn't very well equipped when it comes to socially interacting with people. He's brutally candid to a fault.

    But Clara is a human being with human emotions, and being put under that much pressure could cause anyone to burst. From her perspective her best friend put her in a crappy position, and she doesn't feel like she can trust him anymore, or indeed if she ever could.
  • AbominationAbomination Posts: 6,483
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    You missed the point - he already knew exactly what was going to happen (that whole speech on the beach detailed the events that he already knew followed as a direct result of the space creature being born) - so there was no point at which he actually gave anyone any genuine "choice" in anything.

    I think it's far simpler personally, and that the Doctor indeed had no idea of how things would happen. Once that in flux decision regarding the moon fell into place, The Doctor was able to see how the future would unfold...as simple as that.

    Kind of the same as in how Series 1's Aliens of London/World War Three the Doctor had a distinct feeling he knew the name Harriet Jones. But it only fell into place for him once the events had passed, and he knew she'd had two successful terms as PM and would bring in Britain's Golden Age as a result of her involvement in the story. Of course, the future has a knack for doing its own thing and that future was undone by his deposing of her.

    You could be right of course, but I don't see the show delving into the complex notion of The Doctor pre-emptively knowing more than he's sharing regarding Clara or Courtney. He went in as blind as the rest of them, I believe.
  • DWA9ISDWA9IS Posts: 10,557
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    You missed the point - he already knew exactly what was going to happen (that whole speech on the beach detailed the events that he already knew followed as a direct result of the space creature being born) - so there was no point at which he actually gave anyone any genuine "choice" in anything.

    What he was doing was showing Clara that you can't always make "simple choices" because there's no real "right and wrong" in most cases - you have to make some decisions and live with them cos the choices are bad and bad. He even made the point about the situation being "grey". He also knew a lot more about the whole situation than he let on - he didn't "accidentally" take the future President of the USA to the moon on the very day that the future President of the USA just happened to have sent that shuttle to deal with that problem.

    It's obvious that the Doctor is fully aware of something that we have not been shown or told - as yet. It's likely that it's related to Clara's future - he knows something about it that involves her making a choice. That choice is likely to involve the Doctor and danny - it could be staying with one of them but it could equally be a choice of saving one and letting the other die. The latter seems more likely given the various scenes of the Doctor making the same choices and seemingly accepting that some people can't be saved cos they are "already dead".

    What you have said sounds very plausible and very much like the style of writing that Moffat would use. I agree that this is very likely the case.
  • johnnysaucepnjohnnysaucepn Posts: 6,775
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    ryanr554 wrote: »
    I think the whole thing is stupid and really out of character for the Doctor anyway. Since when has he ever let anyone else make decisions like that. So what if it is their moon, you have protected their earth a thousand times before without their bloody consent.

    It was so forced so they could prove Danny right about the doctor pushing Clara too far.

    It's one thing to protect against hostile intent. This was something else, this was the human race making a choice about their own future, where no-one knew what the outcome would be.

    To use a Star Trek parallel - the Prime Directive prohibits the Federation from interfering in the natural development of a culture, however it still allows them to take measures when another space-faring race seeks to, say, enslave that species or steal their resources.

    Both sides are right - the Doctor's probably justified that it's not his decision to make, but Clara's also right that he's involved himself in humans and their lives so much that he can't remain detached. And also that, as a friend, she asked for his help and he refused her.

    He's also wrong to have put them in that situation in the first place - to treat Courtney as unimportant and then over-compensate by putting her in the most terrible situation he could, just to make a point. He, as others have said, is always about big statements and the magnificent power of possibility, while being blissfully unaware of the effect that has on mere mortals. He forgets how much he screws up the lives of his companions.

    If you take the episode as an allegory for abortion, with three generations of women being forced to choose the fate of an unborn foetus (an older woman, with nothing to live for of her own, making the pragmatic decision, and a teenager, not emotionally mature enough to make the decision alone), the the Doctor is the pro-choice boyfriend that abdicates any responsibility to support his partner, no matter how much she asks for his help.

    He may be technically right, but not morally. And I think that's a significant part of the Twelfth Doctor and why he needs Clara.
  • MinkytheDogMinkytheDog Posts: 5,658
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    I think it's far simpler personally, and that the Doctor indeed had no idea of how things would happen. Once that in flux decision regarding the moon fell into place, The Doctor was able to see how the future would unfold...as simple as that.

    Kind of the same as in how Series 1's Aliens of London/World War Three the Doctor had a distinct feeling he knew the name Harriet Jones. But it only fell into place for him once the events had passed, and he knew she'd had two successful terms as PM and would bring in Britain's Golden Age as a result of her involvement in the story. Of course, the future has a knack for doing its own thing and that future was undone by his deposing of her.

    You could be right of course, but I don't see the show delving into the complex notion of The Doctor pre-emptively knowing more than he's sharing regarding Clara or Courtney. He went in as blind as the rest of them, I believe.

    They may have avoided using the phrase but what happened there was a "fixed point" - it was that specific event, played out such that the creature was seen flying across the sky, that caused humans to go back into space after (as we were told) having abandoned space-travel. That ending was always going to happen and the Doctor knew it - he lied about it being "grey" to make Clara realise something.

    As for Courtney, he not only knew that she was going to become President of the USA, he was able to name a person she is destined to meet in her future. He doesn't know all about every human that ever lived - he knows a few "important" ones and the question of Courtney's "importance" was highlighted from the start of the episode.

    And it has to be said - there's absolutely NO WAY he'd really have left Clara to die - which she would have if she hadn't stopped that timer cos there wasn't even time from when he arrived for them to get into the Tardis if the countdown hadn't been stopped - and he materialised at EXACTLY the time the countdown did stop.

    As much as I detest the "you're over-analysing" tripe that gets thrown around, I'm loathe to say the opposite to anyone but I think that there's quite a bit more to this weeks story that the Doctor being a bit of a knob and Clara only surviving by chance and two seconds.

    Basically, I don't think the thrust of this episode or this season is as shallow and pointless as the Doctor and Clara falling.
  • saladfingers81saladfingers81 Posts: 11,301
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    You missed the point - he already knew exactly what was going to happen (that whole speech on the beach detailed the events that he already knew followed as a direct result of the space creature being born) - so there was no point at which he actually gave anyone any genuine "choice" in anything.

    What he was doing was showing Clara that you can't always make "simple choices" because there's no real "right and wrong" in most cases - you have to make some decisions and live with them cos the choices are bad and bad. He even made the point about the situation being "grey". He also knew a lot more about the whole situation than he let on - he didn't "accidentally" take the future President of the USA to the moon on the very day that the future President of the USA just happened to have sent that shuttle to deal with that problem.

    It's obvious that the Doctor is fully aware of something that we have not been shown or told - as yet. It's likely that it's related to Clara's future - he knows something about it that involves her making a choice. That choice is likely to involve the Doctor and danny - it could be staying with one of them but it could equally be a choice of saving one and letting the other die. The latter seems more likely given the various scenes of the Doctor making the same choices and seemingly accepting that some people can't be saved cos they are "already dead".

    I think you're onto something here. Could it be that the arc this series isn't just toned down but hidden in plain sight? Of course we know all about Missy and Seb already but could this be just part of something bigger? I hope you are right. I would love it to be so.
  • johnnysaucepnjohnnysaucepn Posts: 6,775
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    Minky, I agree with your point that it's possible the Doctor knew what the outcome 'should' be, and Clara very much attacked him on that point. But he dodged the question somewhat, much like we didn't see the outcome of the tussle between him and the Half-Faced Man, and I think that's probably a good thing. I don't think the audience should always know what the Doctor's thinking, and I don't think we can assume he's deliberately lying to Clara about it.

    But regardless, Clara at least seems to accept his version of events, and still thinks his attitude stinks based on that alone.
  • MinkytheDogMinkytheDog Posts: 5,658
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    It's one thing to protect against hostile intent. This was something else, this was the human race making a choice about their own future, where no-one knew what the outcome would be.

    To use a Star Trek parallel - the Prime Directive prohibits the Federation from interfering in the natural development of a culture, however it still allows them to take measures when another space-faring race seeks to, say, enslave that species or steal their resources..

    Interesting that you mention Star Trek cos I saw the episode as being pretty much a reworking of "First Contact" - where the whole future of the human race and the federation hinges on one specific event because it's that one event that first shows humans that there is life in the universe other than on this planet.

    Essentially, what we had today was the Doctor visiting a fixed-point - the day that humans discovered that non-human life existed and realising that they NEEDED to explore space. The Doctor knew damned well what was going to happen cos it had to - that's why he knew it was perfectly safe to leave Clara and Courtney with 100 nukes and "by the book" astronaut who was determined to blow them all to kingdom come.

    Or are you thinking that he really would have run away and left them to die in the explosion?
  • James FrederickJames Frederick Posts: 53,184
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    And it has to be said - there's absolutely NO WAY he'd really have left Clara to die - which she would have if she hadn't stopped that timer cos there wasn't even time from when he arrived for them to get into the Tardis if the countdown hadn't been stopped - and he materialised at EXACTLY the time the countdown did stop.

    Do we know when he came back I may have to re-watch it but we didn't hear it (He turned the brakes off I guess)

    Maybe he was there for a few minutes to watch what they would do but in the chaos they didn't notice him
  • MinkytheDogMinkytheDog Posts: 5,658
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    Do we know when he came back I may have to re-watch it but we didn't hear it (He turned the brakes off I guess)

    Maybe he was there for a few minutes to watch what they would do but in the chaos they didn't notice him

    Definitely hear it - Clara and Courtney press the button to stop the countdown and we hear the Tardis arrive half a second later as the display changes from numbers to read "Aborted"
  • James FrederickJames Frederick Posts: 53,184
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    Definitely hear it - Clara and Courtney press the button to stop the countdown and we hear the Tardis arrive half a second later as the display changes from numbers to read "Aborted"

    As well

    Just seems a very Doctor thing to do would be watch them for 5 mins
  • AbominationAbomination Posts: 6,483
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    There's a glaring problem with the theory that The Doctor actually knew any of this. Surely the astronaut would have recognised the young girl either by name or appearance as the President of the America, no?

    It's just a massive leap that makes the whole episode redundant to suggest that he actually knew it was going to unfold the way it did. "The Doctor lies" as we know, but Series 8 has very much been about a different direction with that, and as much as I feel The Doctor may be doing things that are important whilst Clara isn't around I don't think they'll be harking back to these particular events for any reason.
  • DWA9ISDWA9IS Posts: 10,557
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    Interesting that you mention Star Trek cos I saw the episode as being pretty much a reworking of "First Contact" - where the whole future of the human race and the federation hinges on one specific event because it's that one event that first shows humans that there is life in the universe other than on this planet.

    Essentially, what we had today was the Doctor visiting a fixed-point - the day that humans discovered that non-human life existed and realising that they NEEDED to explore space. The Doctor knew damned well what was going to happen cos it had to - that's why he knew it was perfectly safe to leave Clara and Courtney with 100 nukes and "by the book" astronaut who was determined to blow them all to kingdom come.

    Or are you thinking that he really would have run away and left them to die in the explosion?

    I think you are right that he knew what Clara would do, even if he hadn't seen it, he knows her and has for about 1000 years of his time alive, even if that time was mainly before his last regeneration.
    Courtney obviously is important, as he has made clear that all people/creatures are important, but her decisions on the moon were irrelevant and to some extent so were the astronaut's.
    He may come across cold now, but his values haven't changed.

    Moffat is being so clever with us again, he knows how to create the depth of mystery in the whole story, his arcs may be more complicated than RTD's arcs, but I feel they give greater satisfaction upon them being fully realized.
    You could say that they add that extra heightened sense of drama in comparison.

    I know I love a good puzzle to things anyway.
  • James FrederickJames Frederick Posts: 53,184
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    There's a glaring problem with the theory that The Doctor actually knew any of this. Surely the astronaut would have recognised the young girl either by name or appearance as the President of the America, no?

    Maybe not

    Did she know her full name there is more than one Courtney in the world and she would have aged of course it's not likely she became/becomes President in the next few years so a 13 year old Courtney and say a 40+ year old Courtney may look very different and even if so you would just think it was a passing resemblance there could be a 13 year old boy now who looks like a young Barack Obama.

    Plus she may have had something else on her mind at the time
  • AbominationAbomination Posts: 6,483
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    lotrjw wrote: »
    I think you are right that he knew what Clara would do, even if he hadn't seen it, he knows her and has for about 1000 years of his time alive, even if that time was mainly before his last regeneration.
    Courtney obviously is important, as he has made clear that all people/creatures are important, but her decisions on the moon were irrelevant and to some extent so were the astronaut's.
    He may come across cold now, but his values haven't changed.


    Moffat is being so clever with us again, he knows how to create the depth of mystery in the whole story, his arcs may be more complicated than RTD's arcs, but I feel they give greater satisfaction upon them being fully realized.

    I believe that the Doctor was being very honest and sincere when he told Clara that he knew she'd make the right decision. He's always picked his friends carefully and as you say he's known her for so incredibly long, also knowing that she sacrificed herself to save all of his lives at one point as well.

    I think this alone is depth and mystery to the characters, and this series it's really paying off. It allowed a rather moral dilemma play out tonight. I think that the Doctor knew very well how Clara would respond in the position he put her in, but I think he was genuinely unaware about what would happen to the moon before Clara was put in the position. It shows he puts faith and trust in his friends, which is why I sympathise with him at the end. At the same time though the reasons that led them there were very patronising, and the fact that he scared his closest friend out of the TARDIS was not a good move. Earth is Clara's home planet, but 2049 is not her world. She's as strange and alien to it as he is, if not more so and it was unfair to leave her in that position. It's be the equivalent of in The Fires of Pompeii with The Doctor leaving Donna to cause Vesuvius to erupt...it's her planet after all, not his...same morality essentially, if a slightly different circumstance.
  • AbominationAbomination Posts: 6,483
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    Maybe not

    Did she know her full name there is more than one Courtney in the world and she would have aged of course it's not likely she became/becomes President in the next few years so a 13 year old Courtney and say a 40+ year old Courtney may look very different and even if so you would just think it was a passing resemblance there could be a 13 year old boy now who looks like a young Barack Obama.

    Plus she may have had something else on her mind at the time

    It seems highly unlikely given that she knew they were time travellers, she knew the girl was black, called Courtney, and had an English accent. I know she was described as a third hand astronaut essentially, but she wasn't stupid...it's a real stretch to suggest she wouldn't have put two and two together, especially when the subject arose and she was able to point out herself she knew the President was indeed a woman.
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