Who's not taking it seriously? Why the anger? I do take it "seriously" and prefer the science to be plausible myself, but we are hardly in a position to judge what's plausible and what's not.
It's not real anger. I just thought the smiley worked in that context
I was referring to the writer not taking it seriously, not you.
Tell my why the TARDIS is more or less plausible than the moon egg or trees?
The TARDIS extrapolates on existing scientific theories (multiple dimensions beyond the third, wormholes that allow time travel, etc. ). I can believe in the plausibility of the TARDIS.
I also said that I accepted the egg thing (although, I consider it borderline).
The trees, not so much. Not because of their creation and destruction. If these motes can manipulate energy into matter they can theoretically create and uncreate anything they want. I do think it's odd that the Doctor and all his vaunted technology has never detected them or been aware of them before, though.
The idea that the trees could give off sufficient oxygen to make a difference in such a short space of time seems highly unlikely if they are just normal trees.
The idea that an excess of oxygen can stop the radiation from a solar flare makes no sense.
The idea that this level of oxygen saturation wouldn't have caused everyone to die of oxygen poisoning makes no sense.
The idea that all those trees caused such little destruction and loss of life as seemed to be implied made no sense.
The idea that these motes would use 'nature' to stop the flare but then have the ability to repair all of the technological and man-made structures after the trees were gone makes no sense. Why not just create the oxygen in the first place instead of via trees if they were that capable?
The idea that the Doctor suggest that the future is not certain even though the events are not influenced by time travel of any kind makes no sense.
The idea that mankind would just forget about these events due to some kind of collective amnesia that commonly accompanies these catastrophes makes no sense.
And my point is everyone's threshold is different. So it's back to being a subjective, not an objective thing again - just like "likes" and "dislikes" of any given story/series/showrunner.
And I agreed with your point. However, there is a threshold and it surpassed mine. That's all I said.
When it comes to science there's always Clarke's Law which says any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic.
.
.
In the end it's internal story logic and plausible characterisation that makes a good drama, not an overly strict attitude towards scientific accuracy.
Yes, and it's internal story logic and plausible characterisation which was distinctly lacking in this instance! Hence why it exceeded my threshold for the suspension of disbelief. It's all very well to have pseudo-scientific explanations for why something happens but when you actually have explicit explanations that don't make sense (like trees giving off oxygen which wards off a solar flare) then that's an entirely different matter.
It seemed to me that the writer did not care about story logic or any attempt to make his ideas plausible on the basis that Doctor Who is just a children's fairy tale and doesn't need to make sense as long as it's fun. Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I think that's the wrong way to write for this show.
It's not real anger. I just thought the smiley worked in that context
I was referring to the writer not taking it seriously, not you.
The TARDIS extrapolates on existing scientific theories (multiple dimensions beyond the third, wormholes that allow time travel, etc. ). I can believe in the plausibility of the TARDIS.
I also said that I accepted the egg thing (although, I consider it borderline).
The trees, not so much. Not because of their creation and destruction. If these motes can manipulate energy into matter they can theoretically create and uncreate anything they want. I do think it's odd that the Doctor and all his vaunted technology has never detected them or been aware of them before, though.
The idea that the trees could give off sufficient oxygen to make a difference in such a short space of time seems highly unlikely if they are just normal trees.
The idea that an excess of oxygen can stop the radiation from a solar flare makes no sense.
The idea that this level of oxygen saturation wouldn't have caused everyone to die of oxygen poisoning makes no sense.
The idea that all those trees caused such little destruction and loss of life as seemed to be implied made no sense.
The idea that these motes would use 'nature' to stop the flare but then have the ability to repair all of the technological and man-made structures after the trees were gone makes no sense. Why not just create the oxygen in the first place instead of via trees if they were that capable?
The idea that the Doctor suggest that the future is not certain even though the events are not influenced by time travel of any kind makes no sense.
The idea that mankind would just forget about these events due to some kind of collective amnesia that commonly accompanies these catastrophes makes no sense.
And I agreed with your point. However, there is a threshold and it surpassed mine. That's all I said.
Yes, and it's internal story logic and plausible characterisation which was distinctly lacking in this instance! Hence why it exceeded my threshold for the suspension of disbelief. It's all very well to have pseudo-scientific explanations for why something happens but when you actually have explicit explanations that don't make sense (like trees giving off oxygen which wards off a solar flare) then that's an entirely different matter.
It seemed to me that the writer did not care about story logic or any attempt to make his ideas plausible on the basis that Doctor Who is just a children's fairy tale and doesn't need to make sense as long as it's fun. Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I think that's the wrong way to write for this show.
Fair enough. I actually agree with most of what you said. Good writing for Doctor Who involves taking a crazy, improbable or impossible idea and making it seem plausible to the audience. Perhaps the writer(s) need a slightly greater understanding of scientific principles, so they at least know when they're breaking them and so know when to put greater effort into making them plausible.
I don't know whether the writer of this particular episode cared or not (though I suspect he gave it his best shot) but I do think it had bigger problems than scientific plausibility, some of which I think were production choices, not the writing. I only gave this ep "average" because of them.
Where were all the other Londoners?
Wouldn't it have been better (greater tension and threat) set at night - you know, set it in the forest of the night? This story, the title, the threat from the wolves and the tiger, some of the Doctor's dialogue cries out to have been set at night. They probably weren't allowed to use child actors in night shoots.
I didn't get Clara's sudden choices or the Doctor's passive behaviour (but still hope it will be properly explained in the finale).
Was something missing? Were the stuffed wolf and tiger in the museum meant to inspire Clara or Missy to, perhaps, create the "real" wolves and tiger?
I prefer to think of it as a minor aberration during an otherwise good / excellent series.
But I agree with the above - couldn't help thinking that the trailer for "Wizards and Aliens" that followed Saturday's mess looked dazzling by comparison.
I agree, I saw a snippet of a trailer for "Wizards & Aliens" earlier in the week when changing channels. I thought it was for Dr Who; I was somewhat miffed when I discovered it wasn't.
Wouldn't it have been better (greater tension and threat) set at night - you know, set it in the forest of the night? This story, the title, the threat from the wolves and the tiger, some of the Doctor's dialogue cries out to have been set at night. They probably weren't allowed to use child actors in night shoots.
This was something that disappointed me too. It did seem to call out for a nighttime setting. The reason is probably as you say, plus practical considerations of constant night shoots in a forest. That would be a rough schedule for everybody, and more expensive than day shoots. This is a lesson we always need to remember: Doctor Who is heavily constrained by practical considerations. When we are picking the episodes apart we rarely pay enough attention to this fact (including myself). I know for certain (from commentaries, interviews, behind the scenes documentaries etc) that sometimes they can have a fantastic script that they simply can't realize in the form it was on the page and they have to compromise it. The only way to avoid this is to never try anything vaguely ambitious, which of course is a counter-productive solution.
They have done night shoots before, of course, but if memory serves, only sections of stories needed it. Night shoots do cost more, as you say, and in this case most of the story would have been a night shoot with children, if they were to use a real forest. In other respects use of a real forest did look great. I'm not sure a fake forest, even if mostly in darkness, would have been convincing.
i thought it was good, loved that this invasion was a friendly and beneficial one,, i was thinking that i wish i there were teachers like danny and clara when i went to school, nice the way they wanted to help the kids that perhaps didn't do so well in school,
the ending was nice with the little girls sister reappearing although im not sure if it made sense that she just appeared like that but still it was a nice ending
The girl appeared back suddenly at the end because Maeve "thought her back", as once she had obviously "thought her lost".
The scene where the doctor and clara watched the "thought trees" disappear was like a scene of Timelord Art.
This Finale is going to be a stinker isnt it! It will linger. ha!
I don't think Maeve thought anything into existence. She was just sensitive to thoughts, she didn't create things out of them.
The firefly things created the trees, Maeve just predicted it. The wolves and tigers escaped from the Zoo they weren't wished into existence by Maeve.
The sister came back because she heard Maeve's plea on her mobile phone. Although why this would have motivated her to return I've no idea. She presumably ran away for a reason
I don't think Maeve thought anything into existence. She was just sensitive to thoughts, she didn't create things out of them.
The firefly things created the trees, Maeve just predicted it. The wolves and tigers escaped from the Zoo they weren't wished into existence by Maeve.
The sister came back because she heard Maeve's plea on her mobile phone. Although why this would have motivated her to return I've no idea. She presumably ran away for a reason :confused:
we were told that Annabel went missing, not 'she ran away'. It is not stated in the episode but it could easily be infered that the whatever they are took Annabel to trigger the trauma that allowed Maebh to hear them, so that she could be used to inform The Doctor, who would realise what was happening, so that he could get Maebh to stop the chemical attack, that allowed the trees to protect Earth and Annabel was returned because the whatever they are had finished with her. Or they found her wherever she was lost and returned her as a thank you.
I don't think Maeve thought anything into existence. She was just sensitive to thoughts, she didn't create things out of them.
The firefly things created the trees, Maeve just predicted it. The wolves and tigers escaped from the Zoo they weren't wished into existence by Maeve.
The sister came back because she heard Maeve's plea on her mobile phone. Although why this would have motivated her to return I've no idea. She presumably ran away for a reason
I'm pretty sure that Maebh said she 'wished' for the trees, and they appeared. This is why she was blaming herself.
I still think that following a sisterly squabble she 'wished' her sister gone, and her asking for her to come home again was the cue for the motes to bring her back.
we were told that Annabel went missing, not 'she ran away'. It is not stated in the episode but it could easily be infered that the whatever they are took Annabel to trigger the trauma that allowed Maebh to hear them, so that she could be used to inform The Doctor, who would realise what was happening, so that he could get Maebh to stop the chemical attack, that allowed the trees to protect Earth and Annabel was returned because the whatever they are had finished with her. Or they found her wherever she was lost and returned her as a thank you.
I did think they took her but not to cause the trauma but more to learn how to communicate with us but only Maebh could hear as she was the sister as she had a biological and emotional connection.
Maybe she did run away and they found her wondering in the forest (I assume that's where they live) and took their chance.
I don't think Maeve thought anything into existence. She was just sensitive to thoughts, she didn't create things out of them.
The firefly things created the trees, Maeve just predicted it. The wolves and tigers escaped from the Zoo they weren't wished into existence by Maeve.
The sister came back because she heard Maeve's plea on her mobile phone. Although why this would have motivated her to return I've no idea. She presumably ran away for a reason
I wonder how much of this story actually 'happened'. And how much was in Maebh's head. It's interesting that we saw a stuffed Tiger in the museum (and stuffed wolves I think) and these were the only animals that apparently escaped from the zoo.
We saw no other people in the forest other than the class, a few suited-up burners and Meabh's Mum. No one else. That's really odd isn't it?
And how did Meabh get away from the school trip so early and find the Doctor so easily? She said that Clara told her to find the Doctor, yet Clara seemed unaware of this... Again, how much of this story was wished into existence by Meabh, and how much really happened? It's very unclear and I think another viewing is in order.
I did think they took her but not to cause the trauma but more to learn how to communicate with us but only Maebh could hear as she was the sister as she had a biological and emotional connection.
Maybe she did run away and they found her wondering in the forest (I assume that's where they live) and took their chance.
Well your guess is as good as mine. But I do think that there is more than hint of the 'being mabled' about Annabels disapperance. It is such a shame that Frank's fantastic ideas were what let down by the limitations of the 45 min format of Doctor Who.
It is odd that we didn't see any other Londoners. If it really was all conjured up by the Maebh it could explain it. The stuffed animals in the museum could have been the inspiration for the "real" wolves and the tiger, though the Doctor gave a reasonable explanation for their appearance.
I do hope it doesn't turn out that the Doctor in this series is actually in some kind of simulated reality, and wakes up to find Clara in the shower.
I'm pretty sure that Maebh said she 'wished' for the trees, and they appeared. This is why she was blaming herself.
I still think that following a sisterly squabble she 'wished' her sister gone, and her asking for her to come home again was the cue for the motes to bring her back.
I think there was some suggestion that she thoguht she had wished them into existence but my understanding is that this was disproved when the Doctor found out the real cause of the trees.
While we could hypothesize that the trees and animals and her sister returning were all due to some kind of superhuman psychic abilities of Maebh's, that sounds highly improbable and wasn't what we were ultimately shown to be the cause.
We were shown that the fireflies created the trees in response to the flare and that they had a history of doing this in Earth's past.
We were shown that the Zoo gates were open and told that the animals must have escaped from the Zoo.
It was heavily implied that Maebh's sister came back as a result of Maebh's plea at the end of her phone broadcast.
If all this was down to Maebh's psychic manipulations I would have expected the episode to have made that clearer rather than deliberately show these things to be due to other reasons. Unless Maebh and her abilities are going to be explored in a subsequent episode (which I highly doubt) I think we need to take the episode at face value for what it actually showed us. Which, it seemed to me, was just that Maebh was a sensitive with some kind of telepathic or precognitive abilities but not the ability to wish things into existence.
It was heavily implied that Maebh's sister came back as a result of Maebh's plea at the end of her phone broadcast.
Then she would either have to be fast or know how to get there quick and with transport been down that would be very hard or never went that far away anyway.
Then she would either have to be fast or know how to get there quick and with transport been down that would be very hard or never went that far away anyway.
It's just one of a long list of issues with the script/plot that make no sense whatsoever.
While it's nice to invent fanciful reasons for getting round the shortcomings of the script I'm not convinced that making Maebh some kind of god-like being with the ability to alter reality is much of an improvement in the plausibility department!
Plus I think that if this were the case the episode would have made more of it and made it clear that is what was going on rather than make it look like it was the phone call that did it.
Still, if it helps people accept the story more readily then far be it for me to pour water on their parade!
As far as Maebh's sister is concerned, I assumed she was a runaway and her younger sister had felt guilty and blamed herself. Maebh's sister got the message on her mobile, including her sister's plea that she come home, so she did. She then decided to randomly hide in a bush (that then disappeared on cue) to give a heart-warming final shot.
I voted 'average' because there were a number of positives, but this really isn't going to go down as a misunderstood classic, is it.
As far as Maebh's sister is concerned, I assumed she was a runaway and her younger sister had felt guilty and blamed herself. Maebh's sister got the message on her mobile, including her sister's plea that she come home, so she did. She then decided to randomly hide in a bush (that then disappeared on cue) to give a heart-warming final shot.
That odd disappearance of the shrubbery to reveal Maebh's sister made me wonder whether Annabel had come home at all. Could the glowing motes have made a new Annabel as a thank-you gift to Maebh? Of course, the new Annabel wouldn't be a perfect copy: unsettling discrepancies would gradually become apparent (think of the vegetable Judy Robinson in the Lost in Space episode "Attack of the Monster Plants"), and there would be ructions further down the road when the original Annabel eventually comes home in response to Maebh's message and is turned away as an impostor.
Then again, perhaps it was just clumsy writing and/or direction...
Maebh's sister reappearing like that, did Maebh say how long Annabel had been missing and could she have been there all along, she just didn't see her.
Anyone who thought the writing in the ep was atrocious will be chuckling at these tortuous post-airing justifications. Some of you lot are twisting yourself into knots trying to make sense of what is simply one of the poorest Dr Who episodes ever written!
You`ll need counselling if you carry on like this!
That is the issue being explored; the connection between what is inside us and what is outside us.
It operates on many levels and its open to interpretation without there being a right or wrong interpretation.
Thats why Doctor Who is great drama.
This concept or reality outside and reality inside us is something much debated on philosophy courses.
Its also something close to the imagination of children who often think magically, that they are responsible for things that are happening because of their thoughts, what they want or will.
Its been a very interesting theme of the series this year...and it looks like Finale will explore this further since we have seen an extract of Clara saying "I dont exist".
Its been fascinating, and this episode was an "enchantment" on that theme.
Anyone who thought the writing in the ep was atrocious will be chuckling at these tortuous post-airing justifications. Some of you lot are twisting yourself into knots trying to make sense of what is simply one of the poorest Dr Who episodes ever written!
You`ll need counselling if you carry on like this!
Eh?? Tortuous?...justifications? There is nothing to justify. The episode, despite its obvious short comings, was a decent 'modern fairy story'. I don't need to make any more sense of it than the perfect sense it made the one and only time I watched it. Perhaps my personal interest in folklore and folk tales made it easier for me see the underlying themes that were presented, or perhaps the sniggering 'flash mob' you refer to aren't clever enough to appreciate good story telling or open minded enough to explore its meaning. Who knows? It's a matter of personal taste and interpretation.
As far as I am concerned, the faults with the episode are down to the limitations of the programmes format and poor execution of a number of scenes, not with the writer. Add to that 'the mobs' favourite brick bat, child actors, and a resolution that required viewers to 'not look to closely' and '...Forest...' created the perfect target for those determined to find fault with Doctor Who and have Moffat sacked. It was the same with 'classic', it was the same under RTD, it will be the same after Moffat. Ah well, putting up with insults for having differing tastes and opinions is the lot of being any Doctor Who fan.
The name Maebh Arden was not chosen randomly. It has meaning and is the key to understanding the episode. As has been stated elsewhere, Maebh is the name of the Queen of the Faires in Irish folklore and is probably where the name of the British 'Mab' stems from. Today, folk tales of fairies kidnapping children are well known and in the Warwickshire area the phrase, 'they've been Mabeled' is still used in the same way that 'away with the fairies' is used elsewhere. Warwickshire, also, is the place were once stood the mighty, ancient Forest of Arden. So the idea that Maebh was some how 'special' in the eyes of the 'fairies', or connected to them in a deeper way, was actually front and centre in the episode and her sister disappearing and her resulting 'madness' was not some random, inexplicable coincidence but was the heart of the story.
FBC presented us with the idea that 'fairies' are a mysterious 'Earth power' that will rise to protect its domain when faced with destruction. The tales of children being kidnapped and the fear of being lost in the woods are the half remembered results of its past interventions and these seemingly magical effects are half remembered with fear and misunderstanding by the 'pudding brains'. When a child starts behaving oddly these days we pump them full of Ritalin or describe people as 'away with the fairies'. In short, we drug them, ridicule them and offer them counselling out of ignorance and arrogance. Not an uncommon reaction for those with limited knowledge or understanding, it seems?
I could drone on about the underlying beauty and themes that I found in Frank's Forest. Again, I admit that my own interest in British Folklore is the main reason for this rather than the way in which it was presented as an episode of Doctor Who, but will close this rambling diatribe now out of fear of disappearing up my own arse. Perhaps when people stop asking the wrong questions (why was Annabel turned into a plant? why did she run away? why was there a bicycle in a tree?), they might get the right answers. Stop looking at the trees and see the wood folks!!
I do think criticism of the writer is totally unjustifiable and insulting. His ideas, dialogue and story telling were spot on in my opinion. But in a poll I would rate the episode as above average but less than good, but there is not an option for that so I rate it on my own personal scale...did I enjoy the episode, yes or no?. I would say Yes! I would also, without hesitation, be seeking to get another script out of FBC if I was show runner...
Comments
It's not real anger. I just thought the smiley worked in that context
I was referring to the writer not taking it seriously, not you.
The TARDIS extrapolates on existing scientific theories (multiple dimensions beyond the third, wormholes that allow time travel, etc. ). I can believe in the plausibility of the TARDIS.
I also said that I accepted the egg thing (although, I consider it borderline).
The trees, not so much. Not because of their creation and destruction. If these motes can manipulate energy into matter they can theoretically create and uncreate anything they want. I do think it's odd that the Doctor and all his vaunted technology has never detected them or been aware of them before, though.
The idea that the trees could give off sufficient oxygen to make a difference in such a short space of time seems highly unlikely if they are just normal trees.
The idea that an excess of oxygen can stop the radiation from a solar flare makes no sense.
The idea that this level of oxygen saturation wouldn't have caused everyone to die of oxygen poisoning makes no sense.
The idea that all those trees caused such little destruction and loss of life as seemed to be implied made no sense.
The idea that these motes would use 'nature' to stop the flare but then have the ability to repair all of the technological and man-made structures after the trees were gone makes no sense. Why not just create the oxygen in the first place instead of via trees if they were that capable?
The idea that the Doctor suggest that the future is not certain even though the events are not influenced by time travel of any kind makes no sense.
The idea that mankind would just forget about these events due to some kind of collective amnesia that commonly accompanies these catastrophes makes no sense.
And I agreed with your point. However, there is a threshold and it surpassed mine. That's all I said.
Yes, and it's internal story logic and plausible characterisation which was distinctly lacking in this instance! Hence why it exceeded my threshold for the suspension of disbelief. It's all very well to have pseudo-scientific explanations for why something happens but when you actually have explicit explanations that don't make sense (like trees giving off oxygen which wards off a solar flare) then that's an entirely different matter.
It seemed to me that the writer did not care about story logic or any attempt to make his ideas plausible on the basis that Doctor Who is just a children's fairy tale and doesn't need to make sense as long as it's fun. Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I think that's the wrong way to write for this show.
Maybe he couldn't see wood for the trees? or the trees for the wood...
Fair enough. I actually agree with most of what you said.
I don't know whether the writer of this particular episode cared or not (though I suspect he gave it his best shot) but I do think it had bigger problems than scientific plausibility, some of which I think were production choices, not the writing. I only gave this ep "average" because of them.
Where were all the other Londoners?
Wouldn't it have been better (greater tension and threat) set at night - you know, set it in the forest of the night? This story, the title, the threat from the wolves and the tiger, some of the Doctor's dialogue cries out to have been set at night. They probably weren't allowed to use child actors in night shoots.
I didn't get Clara's sudden choices or the Doctor's passive behaviour (but still hope it will be properly explained in the finale).
Was something missing? Were the stuffed wolf and tiger in the museum meant to inspire Clara or Missy to, perhaps, create the "real" wolves and tiger?
I agree, I saw a snippet of a trailer for "Wizards & Aliens" earlier in the week when changing channels. I thought it was for Dr Who; I was somewhat miffed when I discovered it wasn't.
This was something that disappointed me too. It did seem to call out for a nighttime setting. The reason is probably as you say, plus practical considerations of constant night shoots in a forest. That would be a rough schedule for everybody, and more expensive than day shoots. This is a lesson we always need to remember: Doctor Who is heavily constrained by practical considerations. When we are picking the episodes apart we rarely pay enough attention to this fact (including myself). I know for certain (from commentaries, interviews, behind the scenes documentaries etc) that sometimes they can have a fantastic script that they simply can't realize in the form it was on the page and they have to compromise it. The only way to avoid this is to never try anything vaguely ambitious, which of course is a counter-productive solution.
the ending was nice with the little girls sister reappearing although im not sure if it made sense that she just appeared like that but still it was a nice ending
The girl appeared back suddenly at the end because Maeve "thought her back", as once she had obviously "thought her lost".
The scene where the doctor and clara watched the "thought trees" disappear was like a scene of Timelord Art.
This Finale is going to be a stinker isnt it! It will linger. ha!
I don't think Maeve thought anything into existence. She was just sensitive to thoughts, she didn't create things out of them.
The firefly things created the trees, Maeve just predicted it. The wolves and tigers escaped from the Zoo they weren't wished into existence by Maeve.
The sister came back because she heard Maeve's plea on her mobile phone. Although why this would have motivated her to return I've no idea. She presumably ran away for a reason
we were told that Annabel went missing, not 'she ran away'. It is not stated in the episode but it could easily be infered that the whatever they are took Annabel to trigger the trauma that allowed Maebh to hear them, so that she could be used to inform The Doctor, who would realise what was happening, so that he could get Maebh to stop the chemical attack, that allowed the trees to protect Earth and Annabel was returned because the whatever they are had finished with her. Or they found her wherever she was lost and returned her as a thank you.
I'm pretty sure that Maebh said she 'wished' for the trees, and they appeared. This is why she was blaming herself.
I still think that following a sisterly squabble she 'wished' her sister gone, and her asking for her to come home again was the cue for the motes to bring her back.
I did think they took her but not to cause the trauma but more to learn how to communicate with us but only Maebh could hear as she was the sister as she had a biological and emotional connection.
Maybe she did run away and they found her wondering in the forest (I assume that's where they live) and took their chance.
I wonder how much of this story actually 'happened'. And how much was in Maebh's head. It's interesting that we saw a stuffed Tiger in the museum (and stuffed wolves I think) and these were the only animals that apparently escaped from the zoo.
We saw no other people in the forest other than the class, a few suited-up burners and Meabh's Mum. No one else. That's really odd isn't it?
And how did Meabh get away from the school trip so early and find the Doctor so easily? She said that Clara told her to find the Doctor, yet Clara seemed unaware of this... Again, how much of this story was wished into existence by Meabh, and how much really happened? It's very unclear and I think another viewing is in order.
Well your guess is as good as mine. But I do think that there is more than hint of the 'being mabled' about Annabels disapperance. It is such a shame that Frank's fantastic ideas were what let down by the limitations of the 45 min format of Doctor Who.
I do hope it doesn't turn out that the Doctor in this series is actually in some kind of simulated reality, and wakes up to find Clara in the shower.
I think there was some suggestion that she thoguht she had wished them into existence but my understanding is that this was disproved when the Doctor found out the real cause of the trees.
While we could hypothesize that the trees and animals and her sister returning were all due to some kind of superhuman psychic abilities of Maebh's, that sounds highly improbable and wasn't what we were ultimately shown to be the cause.
We were shown that the fireflies created the trees in response to the flare and that they had a history of doing this in Earth's past.
We were shown that the Zoo gates were open and told that the animals must have escaped from the Zoo.
It was heavily implied that Maebh's sister came back as a result of Maebh's plea at the end of her phone broadcast.
If all this was down to Maebh's psychic manipulations I would have expected the episode to have made that clearer rather than deliberately show these things to be due to other reasons. Unless Maebh and her abilities are going to be explored in a subsequent episode (which I highly doubt) I think we need to take the episode at face value for what it actually showed us. Which, it seemed to me, was just that Maebh was a sensitive with some kind of telepathic or precognitive abilities but not the ability to wish things into existence.
Then she would either have to be fast or know how to get there quick and with transport been down that would be very hard or never went that far away anyway.
It's just one of a long list of issues with the script/plot that make no sense whatsoever.
While it's nice to invent fanciful reasons for getting round the shortcomings of the script I'm not convinced that making Maebh some kind of god-like being with the ability to alter reality is much of an improvement in the plausibility department!
Plus I think that if this were the case the episode would have made more of it and made it clear that is what was going on rather than make it look like it was the phone call that did it.
Still, if it helps people accept the story more readily then far be it for me to pour water on their parade!
I voted 'average' because there were a number of positives, but this really isn't going to go down as a misunderstood classic, is it.
That odd disappearance of the shrubbery to reveal Maebh's sister made me wonder whether Annabel had come home at all. Could the glowing motes have made a new Annabel as a thank-you gift to Maebh? Of course, the new Annabel wouldn't be a perfect copy: unsettling discrepancies would gradually become apparent (think of the vegetable Judy Robinson in the Lost in Space episode "Attack of the Monster Plants"), and there would be ructions further down the road when the original Annabel eventually comes home in response to Maebh's message and is turned away as an impostor.
Then again, perhaps it was just clumsy writing and/or direction...
You`ll need counselling if you carry on like this!
It operates on many levels and its open to interpretation without there being a right or wrong interpretation.
Thats why Doctor Who is great drama.
This concept or reality outside and reality inside us is something much debated on philosophy courses.
Its also something close to the imagination of children who often think magically, that they are responsible for things that are happening because of their thoughts, what they want or will.
Its been a very interesting theme of the series this year...and it looks like Finale will explore this further since we have seen an extract of Clara saying "I dont exist".
Its been fascinating, and this episode was an "enchantment" on that theme.
Eh?? Tortuous?...justifications? There is nothing to justify. The episode, despite its obvious short comings, was a decent 'modern fairy story'. I don't need to make any more sense of it than the perfect sense it made the one and only time I watched it. Perhaps my personal interest in folklore and folk tales made it easier for me see the underlying themes that were presented, or perhaps the sniggering 'flash mob' you refer to aren't clever enough to appreciate good story telling or open minded enough to explore its meaning. Who knows? It's a matter of personal taste and interpretation.
As far as I am concerned, the faults with the episode are down to the limitations of the programmes format and poor execution of a number of scenes, not with the writer. Add to that 'the mobs' favourite brick bat, child actors, and a resolution that required viewers to 'not look to closely' and '...Forest...' created the perfect target for those determined to find fault with Doctor Who and have Moffat sacked. It was the same with 'classic', it was the same under RTD, it will be the same after Moffat. Ah well, putting up with insults for having differing tastes and opinions is the lot of being any Doctor Who fan.
The name Maebh Arden was not chosen randomly. It has meaning and is the key to understanding the episode. As has been stated elsewhere, Maebh is the name of the Queen of the Faires in Irish folklore and is probably where the name of the British 'Mab' stems from. Today, folk tales of fairies kidnapping children are well known and in the Warwickshire area the phrase, 'they've been Mabeled' is still used in the same way that 'away with the fairies' is used elsewhere. Warwickshire, also, is the place were once stood the mighty, ancient Forest of Arden. So the idea that Maebh was some how 'special' in the eyes of the 'fairies', or connected to them in a deeper way, was actually front and centre in the episode and her sister disappearing and her resulting 'madness' was not some random, inexplicable coincidence but was the heart of the story.
FBC presented us with the idea that 'fairies' are a mysterious 'Earth power' that will rise to protect its domain when faced with destruction. The tales of children being kidnapped and the fear of being lost in the woods are the half remembered results of its past interventions and these seemingly magical effects are half remembered with fear and misunderstanding by the 'pudding brains'. When a child starts behaving oddly these days we pump them full of Ritalin or describe people as 'away with the fairies'. In short, we drug them, ridicule them and offer them counselling out of ignorance and arrogance. Not an uncommon reaction for those with limited knowledge or understanding, it seems?
I could drone on about the underlying beauty and themes that I found in Frank's Forest. Again, I admit that my own interest in British Folklore is the main reason for this rather than the way in which it was presented as an episode of Doctor Who, but will close this rambling diatribe now out of fear of disappearing up my own arse. Perhaps when people stop asking the wrong questions (why was Annabel turned into a plant? why did she run away? why was there a bicycle in a tree?), they might get the right answers. Stop looking at the trees and see the wood folks!!
I do think criticism of the writer is totally unjustifiable and insulting. His ideas, dialogue and story telling were spot on in my opinion. But in a poll I would rate the episode as above average but less than good, but there is not an option for that so I rate it on my own personal scale...did I enjoy the episode, yes or no?. I would say Yes! I would also, without hesitation, be seeking to get another script out of FBC if I was show runner...