also, the imagery of bert and ernie is most likely covered by copyright.
thus, unless the baker or the buyer has the permission to use the bert and ernie imagery then it should be refused on copyright grounds.
Quite right. The bakery would be breaking the law by profiting from copyrighted characters. They couldn't legally do a cake with Bert and Ernie on it anymore than they could sell their own range of Muppet cakes showing Kermit and Miss Piggy. . just to put a good 'ol heterosexual puppet relationship in to the mix.
Queerspace or whatever the f their called should be more concerned about being sued by the makers of Sesame Street.
Surely as the shop manager, she has the right to refuse anyone? Who says they turned it down because it was a 'gay' cake? Perhaps the owners don't like being involved in lobbying or publicising *any* cause or movement? I suspect this shop is being targetted by the horrid 'radical' gays who love to wallow in victimhood and collect scalps.
The bakers are refusing the order because they don't support the message, not because the customer is gay. I can't see any difference between this and the band that recently refused to play for UKIP
This doesn't look like the only bakery in town, and the town doesn't look like some isolated backwater in the middle of nowhere, and the bakery company itself looks to be very overtly Christian so I do wonder why someone chose to place this particular order with this particular bakery given the blindingly obvious likelihood that it might be a problem.
[ e2a: I see Shrike already made this point, my slow typing ]
What is the legal standpoint on forcing a publisher to print political leaflets that oppose his own viewpoint, because this seems to be closer to that than simply buying stuff from a shop?
How many times are we going to go round this particular circle. The law says you may not discriminate against people on the grounds of their sexuality when you are providing goods or services. Not liking that law is your prerogative... even breaking it is your prerogative... not being held accountable under law isn't.
Quite right. The bakery would be breaking the law by profiting from copyrighted characters. They couldn't legally do a cake with Bert and Ernie on it anymore than they could sell their own range of Muppet cakes showing Kermit and Miss Piggy. . just to put a good 'ol heterosexual puppet relationship in to the mix.
Queerspace or whatever the f their called should be more concerned about being sued by the makers of Sesame Street.
I do love the fact that no one is taking your bait. Must be quite frustrating?
The law isn't always right. There was a time when the law laid down some very negative rules about homosexuality. This is why you should be careful about supporting and invoking the law. Sometimes it really is an ass.
So you would think it was perfectly acceptable for a shop to refuse service to someone because they were black for example?
He didn't refuse service. He refused a service. And as far as we know he was still prepared to sell a cake - just not with that particular message. Would you support the baker if someone asked him to write a derogatory message about homosexuality and he agreed?
Tolerance goes both ways and I think the person asking for the message should have known it was contentious. Especially in NI where apparently they are still so backward they don't allow gay marriage. Anyway knowing the nature of the message they should have understood and accepted a private business owner's right not to put political statements on their merchandise.
This doesn't look like the only bakery in town, and the town doesn't look like some isolated backwater in the middle of nowhere, and the bakery company itself looks to be very overtly Christian so I do wonder why someone chose to place this particular order with this particular bakery given the blindingly obvious likelihood that it might be a problem.
What is the legal standpoint on forcing a publisher to print political leaflets that oppose his own viewpoint, because this seems to be closer to that than simply buying stuff from a shop?
It depends what it is - equality laws cover only certain protected characteristics, such as race, sexuality, disability etc. In this case the argument is that a protected characteristic applies.
If you go in to Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury, in fact any shop you like, they're within their legal rights not to serve you or ban you from the premises for any reason they like.
Actually they're not. They cannot ban you simply because you are gay, black, or female, for example, as these areas are covered by the anti-discimination laws.
How many times are we going to go round this particular circle. The law says you may not discriminate against people on the grounds of their sexuality when you are providing goods or services. Not liking that law is your prerogative... even breaking it is your prerogative... not being held accountable under law isn't.
was the buyer discriminated due to their sexuality?
no i don't think so.
if a straight person went in and asked for the same message on a cake then they would also be refused.
Surely as the shop manager, she has the right to refuse anyone? Who says they turned it down because it was a 'gay' cake? Perhaps the owners don't like being involved in lobbying or publicising *any* cause or movement? I suspect this shop is being targetted by the horrid 'radical' gays who love to wallow in victimhood and collect scalps.
Are there any such people, or did you just invent them?
How many times are we going to go round this particular circle. The law says you may not discriminate against people on the grounds of their sexuality when you are providing goods or services. Not liking that law is your prerogative... even breaking it is your prerogative... not being held accountable under law isn't.
But did they turn down the job because it was a 'gay' cake? Do you know? Perhaps the shop doesn't like being involved in 'messages' and prefers to stay clear of that kind of thing?
I'd rather people who are against gay marriage grew up and moved into the 21st century. Is this actually discrimination though? If a straight person had come in and asked for the same cake to be made, and the request was refused, there'd be no question of discrimination. On the face of the news article, it isn't that the bakery are refusing to serve a gay customer, it is that they are refusing to fulfil a specific request.
I'd rather people who are against gay marriage grew up and moved into the 21st century. Is this actually discrimination though? If a straight person had come in and asked for the same cake to be made, and the request was refused, there'd be no question of discrimination. On the face of the news article, it isn't that the bakery are refusing to serve a gay customer, it is that they are refusing to fulfil a specific request.
The law isn't always right. There was a time when the law laid down some very negative rules about homosexuality. This is why you should be careful about supporting and invoking the law. Sometimes it really is an ass.
It is of course true that laws are sometimes wrong... but whether or not you break them is an absolute... you either do or you do not. If the bakery thinks the law is wrong then they can try to get the law changed... but while it is on the statute books they cannot arbitrarily refuse to obey it just because they think it is wrong and expect no consequences.
I understand what you have typed but do not agree. Legislation needs to be in place to ensure people have equal access to goods and services and are not discriminated against for things that are just part of them - race, gender, sexuality, disability etc.
Refusing service to someone who is visibly drunk in a pub is acceptable because the person can avoid being drunk in order to still be served.
Someone who is black cannot avoid being black, just like someone who is gay cannot avoid being gay.
I am not asking you to agree with me. I have given my stance on the issue. Some will wont agree. I can live with that.
Sorry but your example isnt correct. You have no choice on what colour you are. You do have a choice on whether you want to pursue the gay lifestyle.
Gay man places order of a cake with a bakery decorated as Bert and Ernie with the inscription 'support gay marriage' on it. Christian bakery owner refuses to fill the order. Equality commission now threatening legal action unless bakery accepts the order.
I don't oppose gay marriage but I support people to have their own views about what is acceptable or offensive to them. I could not demand a halal bakery supply me with bacon for reasons of belief.
The gay lobby can be a petulant lot at times. Tolerance works both ways guys.
How was the customer to know that the bakery was owned by a Christian family? People with strong religious beliefs shouldn't be running a business where there's a chance that an order might not be able to be taken because of what they believe in.
But did they turn down the job because it was a 'gay' cake? Do you know? Perhaps the shop doesn't like being involved in 'messages' and prefers to stay clear of that kind of thing?
No, I don't know... that is why we have courts to test such things. Although from the comments of the bakery I can't see it being about messages in general, but certain messages they happen to disagree with.
It's an interesting case to be honest and might be worth taking to court to see if the refusal to provide a cake with a message is seen as discriminating against the person requesting it.
It is of course true that laws are sometimes wrong... but whether or not you break them is an absolute... you either do or you do not. If the bakery thinks the law is wrong then they can try to get the law changed... but while it is on the statute books they cannot arbitrarily refuse to obey it just because they think it is wrong and expect no consequences.
You are making the assumption that the bakery has discriminated on grounds of sexuality, but as several people have pointed out, that is extremely debateable.
If you go in to Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury, in fact any shop you like, they're within their legal rights not to serve you or ban you from the premises for any reason they like.
They can't put up a sign that says "no black people allowed" and start banning them for example.
It is of course true that laws are sometimes wrong... but whether or not you break them is an absolute... you either do or you do not. If the bakery thinks the law is wrong then they can try to get the law changed... but while it is on the statute books they cannot arbitrarily refuse to obey it just because they think it is wrong and expect no consequences.
I confess to not having read the article - does it say they expect no consequences? And I'm still not convinced that there was discrimination. Just a policy against certain types of message. How about if the baker decided to start a new line of cakes with the message 'We don't support gay marriage'. Would you expect the law to act against them then? If so - on what grounds?
We run a copying service and on very rare occasions we may not wish to serve one or two unpleasant customers which in one instance could have caused us a problem under the race relations act although the banning was nothing about race or colour. We simply tell them that the machine is out of order and awaiting an engineers visit If I were running that bakers and objected to certain wordings required then I would have come up with something like we are overbooked and cannot fit you in for a few days - or weeks as the case may be.
No, I don't know... that is why we have courts to test such things. Although from the comments of the bakery I can't see it being about messages in general, but certain messages they happen to disagree with.
That may be the case - but that doesn't necessarily mean they have been discriminating against anyone
I am not asking you to agree with me. I have given my stance on the issue. Some will wont agree. I can live with that.
Sorry but your example isnt correct. You have no choice on what colour you are. You do have a choice on whether you want to pursue the gay lifestyle.
Sexuality isn't chosen (by gay people or by straight people) - it is just part of who you are (just like your skin colour). Of course you can choose not to get married to someone of the same sex.. but then you can choose not to marry someone of a different skin colour... so would you think it acceptable if a bakery refused to bake a cake supporting mixed race weddings... after all, a black person has a choice whether they marry a white person.
Comments
Quite right. The bakery would be breaking the law by profiting from copyrighted characters. They couldn't legally do a cake with Bert and Ernie on it anymore than they could sell their own range of Muppet cakes showing Kermit and Miss Piggy. . just to put a good 'ol heterosexual puppet relationship in to the mix.
Queerspace or whatever the f their called should be more concerned about being sued by the makers of Sesame Street.
[ e2a: I see Shrike already made this point, my slow typing
What is the legal standpoint on forcing a publisher to print political leaflets that oppose his own viewpoint, because this seems to be closer to that than simply buying stuff from a shop?
I do love the fact that no one is taking your bait. Must be quite frustrating?
Tolerance goes both ways and I think the person asking for the message should have known it was contentious. Especially in NI where apparently they are still so backward they don't allow gay marriage. Anyway knowing the nature of the message they should have understood and accepted a private business owner's right not to put political statements on their merchandise.
It depends what it is - equality laws cover only certain protected characteristics, such as race, sexuality, disability etc. In this case the argument is that a protected characteristic applies.
Actually they're not. They cannot ban you simply because you are gay, black, or female, for example, as these areas are covered by the anti-discimination laws.
was the buyer discriminated due to their sexuality?
no i don't think so.
if a straight person went in and asked for the same message on a cake then they would also be refused.
no discrimination has taken place.
Are there any such people, or did you just invent them?
But did they turn down the job because it was a 'gay' cake? Do you know? Perhaps the shop doesn't like being involved in 'messages' and prefers to stay clear of that kind of thing?
I'd rather people who are against gay marriage grew up and moved into the 21st century. Is this actually discrimination though? If a straight person had come in and asked for the same cake to be made, and the request was refused, there'd be no question of discrimination. On the face of the news article, it isn't that the bakery are refusing to serve a gay customer, it is that they are refusing to fulfil a specific request.
You may have a point.
It is of course true that laws are sometimes wrong... but whether or not you break them is an absolute... you either do or you do not. If the bakery thinks the law is wrong then they can try to get the law changed... but while it is on the statute books they cannot arbitrarily refuse to obey it just because they think it is wrong and expect no consequences.
Sorry but your example isnt correct. You have no choice on what colour you are. You do have a choice on whether you want to pursue the gay lifestyle.
How was the customer to know that the bakery was owned by a Christian family? People with strong religious beliefs shouldn't be running a business where there's a chance that an order might not be able to be taken because of what they believe in.
No, I don't know... that is why we have courts to test such things. Although from the comments of the bakery I can't see it being about messages in general, but certain messages they happen to disagree with.
It's an interesting case to be honest and might be worth taking to court to see if the refusal to provide a cake with a message is seen as discriminating against the person requesting it.
You are making the assumption that the bakery has discriminated on grounds of sexuality, but as several people have pointed out, that is extremely debateable.
They can't put up a sign that says "no black people allowed" and start banning them for example.
That may be the case - but that doesn't necessarily mean they have been discriminating against anyone
Sexuality isn't chosen (by gay people or by straight people) - it is just part of who you are (just like your skin colour). Of course you can choose not to get married to someone of the same sex.. but then you can choose not to marry someone of a different skin colour... so would you think it acceptable if a bakery refused to bake a cake supporting mixed race weddings... after all, a black person has a choice whether they marry a white person.