Here's an idea. Before you all make up your minds about the new series weeks before it's actually aired why doesn't everyone wait a bit and actually watch it, rather than making snap judgements based solely on a script?
Doctor Who is a TV programme, a visual feast, full of stylish direction, cracking performances, stunning visual effects, and actors who imbue the lines with personality and style.
Doctor Who is far more than just a bunch of written words on a page.
However the scripts are more than enough to form a decision on the stories, which is what we're talking about. All the visual effects in the world can't save bad writing.
However the scripts are more than enough to form a decision on the stories, which is what we're talking about. All the visual effects in the world can't save bad writing.
Is that the predominant impression from the reports of those who have read the scripts, that they are bad writing, or is it more that narratively and stylistically it's just more of the same from Moffatt, which is good news for those who like his style, disappointing news for those who had hoped for a new direction for the show?
See all the anti-Moffat moaners have found a new place to congregate. The vast majority of people who have read the scripts ( I have them but won't read until after each episode airs ) on other, much larger forums seem extremely positive about them, the Moffat ones in particular ( surprise, surprise ). As for there being no major change of direction, THANK GOD! As long as there's no regression to the God awful RTD era, I'll be happy.
Is that the predominant impression from the reports of those who have read the scripts, that they are bad writing, or is it more that narratively and stylistically it's just more of the same from Moffatt, which is good news for those who like his style, disappointing news for those who had hoped for a new direction for the show?
That was probably not the best wording. It is definitely "more of the same".
Here's an idea. Before you all make up your minds about the new series weeks before it's actually aired why doesn't everyone wait a bit and actually watch it, rather than making snap judgements based solely on a script?
Doctor Who is a TV programme, a visual feast, full of stylish direction, cracking performances, stunning visual effects, and actors who imbue the lines with personality and style.
Doctor Who is far more than just a bunch of written words on a page.
Its a script, it gives visual hints as to what the writer is aiming for and what the writer has in mind over all.
By your deffinition all the Who expanded universe and spin off books that existed for many years during the break between classic who and new who are irrelevent and incapable of grabbing the readers imagination the same way that a tv show can???
Not getting into flame war, I just find your views to be ignorant and blind but your entitled to them just like I am entitled to mine.
That was probably not the best wording. It is definitely "more of the same".
I disagree entirely if you don't mind. I've read episodes 1-4, decided against 5, don't want to ruin it any more than I already have. I can feel a difference in the tone. The dynamic between Doctor and Clara is different, more of an embarressing uncle than a boyfriend.
The Show is driven by its lead characters, the tone of the stories ride on the change in their relationship. Episode 4 for instance, would not have worked at all with Matt or David, it's Peter's seemingly more brash and unsympathetic character that pulls the story along and makes the pay off more poignant.
Its a script, it gives visual hints as to what the writer is aiming for and what the writer has in mind over all.
By your deffinition all the Who expanded universe and spin off books that existed for many years during the break between classic who and new who are irrelevent and incapable of grabbing the readers imagination the same way that a tv show can???
Not getting into flame war, I just find your views to be ignorant and blind but your entitled to them just like I am entitled to mine.
A script and a story are two entirely different forms of writing. That is why some people who write amazing stories cannot turn them into scripts - they are very very different. Of course the stories count, but your analogy doesn't work anyway.
And, yes, you do get some visual flair. Bu thave you ever seen two performances of the same show by different directors and/or actors? They are different. The performances matter greatly. I can practically guarantee that any imagery of delivery you got from reading the scripts will not match the delivery as it is shown. You can gain a modicum of an idea, but there really is nowhere near enough information from a script alone to judge what is coming.
But, you are entitled to have an ill-informed opinion, if you wish.
Here's an idea. Before you all make up your minds about the new series weeks before it's actually aired why doesn't everyone wait a bit and actually watch it, rather than making snap judgements based solely on a script?
Doctor Who is a TV programme, a visual feast, full of stylish direction, cracking performances, stunning visual effects, and actors who imbue the lines with personality and style.
Doctor Who is far more than just a bunch of written words on a page.
There are several types people on here: Moffat bashers, nu-Who haters, music's too loud moaners, scripts too complicated whiners, Tennant fan-girls and Smith loathers. Very few of these narrow minded monkeys would even dream of watching something before coming to a reasonable view on It. No, they'll either read a downloaded script, or let someone else read it for them and agree with whatever negative thing they say about it.
Its a script, it gives visual hints as to what the writer is aiming for and what the writer has in mind over all.
By your deffinition all the Who expanded universe and spin off books that existed for many years during the break between classic who and new who are irrelevent and incapable of grabbing the readers imagination the same way that a tv show can???
Not getting into flame war, I just find your views to be ignorant and blind but your entitled to them just like I am entitled to mine.
Of course we all have our own opinions - long may it continue, but I'd disagree with the bit in bold. A TV script is the bare bones of a TV programme, it may have cues and visual hints, but it's still only the skeleton of the finished article. A novel, or comic strip or whatever are meant to be read - a well written Who novel grabs my attention and imagination - they're certainly not irrelevant and many are superb.
But I, personally, can't really see how a full opinion of a TV programme can be deduced purely from a script. If you can, then that's fine. Just my opinion.
But I, personally, can't really see how a full opinion of a TV programme can be deduced purely from a script. If you can, then that's fine. Just my opinion.
It can't of course. But a full opinion of the story can. And that's far and away the single most important element to me.
We've removed a number of posts from this thread requesting links to the leaked scripts. While we appreciate you're all excited for the new series, asking for download links through the forum (and this includes the Private Messaging system) is not something we can allow - aside from the fact this content isn't actually meant to be public material, it ruins the enjoyment for everyone.
If you come across a thread or post asking for links to the leaked scripts, or to be PMed a link, please alert it so that we can remove it.
Got to agree, read the scripts (three and a bit so far) and can see the "business as usual" flavour that tainted 11's run.
There are parts in all of the scripts that reek of Moffs sense of "humor" and general attitude toward to the series.
The script for "Listen" I instantly loathed, by the end of reading that rubbish I was convinced that Moffs next master stroke will be to rename the series "Clara Who" and get it over with!
The Robin Hood script read to me like it is trying to hard to be funny and very meta with plenty of winks to the audience (including Robins last line to the Doctor was really cheesy and groan inducing!!!)
I had high hopes for Capaldi after reading the first ep script but even that wasnt without its (many) faults.
I no longer think that Matt Smith was a mediocre Dr but rather suffered from a mediocre show runner.
Great points, I agree with everything.
Listen and Sherwood were particularly painful. The humour just falls completely flat and the plots are so limp.
Oh well, I guess we won't see a fresh new feel until we get a much-needed new showrunner.
Any news on when we'll be getting episode titles? I remember way back before series 4 that either RadioTimes or DWM gave a series breakdown giving all the episode titles (besides Forest of the Dead which was listed as River's Run and The Stolen Earth listed as TBA). Any news on when they are announced?
Any news on when we'll be getting episode titles? I remember way back before series 4 that either RadioTimes or DWM gave a series breakdown giving all the episode titles (besides Forest of the Dead which was listed as River's Run and The Stolen Earth listed as TBA). Any news on when they are announced?
We already know the first five. Some we knew before the leak, others as a result of the leak - but at this stage the waters have been muddied and can't distinguish between them so (these are confirmed):
01: Deep Breath
02: Into The Dalek
03: Robots of Sherwood
04: Listen
05: Time Heist
Aside from those, we have some titles for episode 06 to 12 but not all; these have not been confirmed and could still change:
Kill the Moon
Mummy on the Orient Express
Flatline
Coal Hill Disaster
Jesus Christ... some idiot manages to leak the scripts of the first few episodes and now some people have been given the opportunity to complain about how shit everything is going to be, two months before the bloody series begins airing.
It can't of course. But a full opinion of the story can. And that's far and away the single most important element to me.
Have to say I agree in this regard at least.
If you look at the more common criticisms of Who since 2005, they're nearly always concerned with things such as cheap endings, plot holes, deux ex machina and other forms of what people consider "bad writing".
All these problems (if present in a story) would be present in a script and would be easier to spot in a text-form document than during or after an actual broadcast, because with television we have special effects, music and the show's actual pacing to keep us distracted, disguise things and speed past fragile moments that can't stand up well to being dwelt upon.
That being said, those who would likely complain about these sort of elements would have made exactly the same complaints had they seen the episode on screen first. All that happened is these people got a bit of a head start. People always bash the show, and in some respects it's possibly a good thing some folks are getting it out of their system early.
I haven't read any of the scripts. Don't want to. But I do laugh at the usual Moffat bashing already. I've read alot of script books of many films. They don't always sparkle on the page. Not that I want to even get into this. I've read alot of good things about the scripts. Of course its still Moffat. I hope he changes things up a bit but he's a writer with a distinctive style and voice. As was RTD. He wasn't going to change his entire style. No one does. So haters keep on hating. I will remain excited. Fact is some people won't be happy until Moffats gone. And then they can complain about the next show runner.
Jesus Christ... some idiot manages to leak the scripts of the first few episodes and now some people have been given the opportunity to complain about how shit everything is going to be, two months before the bloody series begins airing.
Isn't so called 'fandom' brilliant? Has there ever been a show that had so many 'fans' that hate it? I can't think of one. Must be very awful for them all.
I haven't read any of the scripts. Don't want to. But I do laugh at the usual Moffat bashing already. I've read alot of script books of many films. They don't always sparkle on the page.
The problem, as far as I can see it is thus:
There are two types of "fans" - those who will take each episode as it comes, and those with an "anti Moffat" agenda. The former might have some sort of opinion after reading the scripts but is more likely to see the episode in it's intended form before passing any final judgement.
The latter simply looks for ways to criticize Moffat/RTD/whoever. These people will take every single scrap of evidence that exists and purposefully look for or invent the negatives. These people actively want to complain - and when there's a script leak they get plenty of raw material to go looking for things to complain about. To them, it hardly matters whether the things they're complaining about are being taken out of context or not, they've simply found a reason to complain and complain they do.
When a show is televised, everyone gets to have their say at the same time. When there's a script leak or something similar the folks in the latter category will have already made their minds up and will be very vocal about it - they got what they wanted, they're simply getting their word out first. Everyone else just sits and waits patiently until the episode airs before really commenting.
So right now all we're hearing is complaints. That's because it's only the complainers who are making a fuss over the content of these scripts and has no bearing on how well received or not the episode will be when shown on TV in August.
We already know the first five. Some we knew before the leak, others as a result of the leak - but at this stage the waters have been muddied and can't distinguish between them so (these are confirmed):
01: Deep Breath
02: Into The Dalek
03: Robots of Sherwood
04: Listen
05: Time Heist
Aside from those, we have some titles for episode 06 to 12 but not all; these have not been confirmed and could still change:
Kill the Moon
Mummy on the Orient Express
Flatline
Coal Hill Disaster
I'm aware of most of those apart from
Coal Hill Disaster. Is there a source for that?
I was wondering when the titles will be confirmed. Even 2-5 aren't exactly confirmed they're still working aren't they?
There are many types of fan. There are some who are very against the showrunner because they don't enjoy his work or his vision of the show and will always nitpick. Conversely, there are many who think the sun shines out of his rear and will never be able to objectively criticise him. Both are rather tiresome imo. Moffat isn't perfect - he's done some great stuff and he's got some very distinct weakness as a showrunner and writer which he gets away with due to his position. It happens often in TV. From what I've read so far people are giving their honest opinion on whether they like the stories written which is fair enough. They may like it much more on screen which is also fair enough. There are several people commenting that despite what Moffat's been saying there is no massive change of tone - for some people this is a good thing, for some this is bad. You get fans at both extremes but to essentially place everyone in the pile of 'haters' or 'true fans' is a nonsense - there's many people in the middle somewhere and personally I enjoy reading and discussing their opinions even if it's critical. Critical feedback is interesting!
In the end though, most 'fans' are people who watch it on a Saturday night and then don't really give it a further thought. It's these casual viewers who ironically hold the most power as without them a huge chunk of the audience goes and it's these who the show has to work hardest to please.
Comments
Doctor Who is a TV programme, a visual feast, full of stylish direction, cracking performances, stunning visual effects, and actors who imbue the lines with personality and style.
Doctor Who is far more than just a bunch of written words on a page.
Is that the predominant impression from the reports of those who have read the scripts, that they are bad writing, or is it more that narratively and stylistically it's just more of the same from Moffatt, which is good news for those who like his style, disappointing news for those who had hoped for a new direction for the show?
Its a script, it gives visual hints as to what the writer is aiming for and what the writer has in mind over all.
By your deffinition all the Who expanded universe and spin off books that existed for many years during the break between classic who and new who are irrelevent and incapable of grabbing the readers imagination the same way that a tv show can???
Not getting into flame war, I just find your views to be ignorant and blind but your entitled to them just like I am entitled to mine.
I disagree entirely if you don't mind. I've read episodes 1-4, decided against 5, don't want to ruin it any more than I already have. I can feel a difference in the tone. The dynamic between Doctor and Clara is different, more of an embarressing uncle than a boyfriend.
The Show is driven by its lead characters, the tone of the stories ride on the change in their relationship. Episode 4 for instance, would not have worked at all with Matt or David, it's Peter's seemingly more brash and unsympathetic character that pulls the story along and makes the pay off more poignant.
A script and a story are two entirely different forms of writing. That is why some people who write amazing stories cannot turn them into scripts - they are very very different. Of course the stories count, but your analogy doesn't work anyway.
And, yes, you do get some visual flair. Bu thave you ever seen two performances of the same show by different directors and/or actors? They are different. The performances matter greatly. I can practically guarantee that any imagery of delivery you got from reading the scripts will not match the delivery as it is shown. You can gain a modicum of an idea, but there really is nowhere near enough information from a script alone to judge what is coming.
But, you are entitled to have an ill-informed opinion, if you wish.
There are several types people on here: Moffat bashers, nu-Who haters, music's too loud moaners, scripts too complicated whiners, Tennant fan-girls and Smith loathers. Very few of these narrow minded monkeys would even dream of watching something before coming to a reasonable view on It. No, they'll either read a downloaded script, or let someone else read it for them and agree with whatever negative thing they say about it.
Of course we all have our own opinions - long may it continue, but I'd disagree with the bit in bold. A TV script is the bare bones of a TV programme, it may have cues and visual hints, but it's still only the skeleton of the finished article. A novel, or comic strip or whatever are meant to be read - a well written Who novel grabs my attention and imagination - they're certainly not irrelevant and many are superb.
But I, personally, can't really see how a full opinion of a TV programme can be deduced purely from a script. If you can, then that's fine. Just my opinion.
We've removed a number of posts from this thread requesting links to the leaked scripts. While we appreciate you're all excited for the new series, asking for download links through the forum (and this includes the Private Messaging system) is not something we can allow - aside from the fact this content isn't actually meant to be public material, it ruins the enjoyment for everyone.
If you come across a thread or post asking for links to the leaked scripts, or to be PMed a link, please alert it so that we can remove it.
Thanks!
Great points, I agree with everything.
Listen and Sherwood were particularly painful. The humour just falls completely flat and the plots are so limp.
Oh well, I guess we won't see a fresh new feel until we get a much-needed new showrunner.
We already know the first five. Some we knew before the leak, others as a result of the leak - but at this stage the waters have been muddied and can't distinguish between them so (these are confirmed):
02: Into The Dalek
03: Robots of Sherwood
04: Listen
05: Time Heist
Aside from those, we have some titles for episode 06 to 12 but not all; these have not been confirmed and could still change:
Mummy on the Orient Express
Flatline
Coal Hill Disaster
Possible title for one of the finale episodes
Have to say I agree in this regard at least.
If you look at the more common criticisms of Who since 2005, they're nearly always concerned with things such as cheap endings, plot holes, deux ex machina and other forms of what people consider "bad writing".
All these problems (if present in a story) would be present in a script and would be easier to spot in a text-form document than during or after an actual broadcast, because with television we have special effects, music and the show's actual pacing to keep us distracted, disguise things and speed past fragile moments that can't stand up well to being dwelt upon.
That being said, those who would likely complain about these sort of elements would have made exactly the same complaints had they seen the episode on screen first. All that happened is these people got a bit of a head start. People always bash the show, and in some respects it's possibly a good thing some folks are getting it out of their system early.
Isn't so called 'fandom' brilliant? Has there ever been a show that had so many 'fans' that hate it? I can't think of one. Must be very awful for them all.
The problem, as far as I can see it is thus:
There are two types of "fans" - those who will take each episode as it comes, and those with an "anti Moffat" agenda. The former might have some sort of opinion after reading the scripts but is more likely to see the episode in it's intended form before passing any final judgement.
The latter simply looks for ways to criticize Moffat/RTD/whoever. These people will take every single scrap of evidence that exists and purposefully look for or invent the negatives. These people actively want to complain - and when there's a script leak they get plenty of raw material to go looking for things to complain about. To them, it hardly matters whether the things they're complaining about are being taken out of context or not, they've simply found a reason to complain and complain they do.
When a show is televised, everyone gets to have their say at the same time. When there's a script leak or something similar the folks in the latter category will have already made their minds up and will be very vocal about it - they got what they wanted, they're simply getting their word out first. Everyone else just sits and waits patiently until the episode airs before really commenting.
So right now all we're hearing is complaints. That's because it's only the complainers who are making a fuss over the content of these scripts and has no bearing on how well received or not the episode will be when shown on TV in August.
I'm aware of most of those apart from
I was wondering when the titles will be confirmed. Even 2-5 aren't exactly confirmed they're still working aren't they?
Not really.
There are many types of fan. There are some who are very against the showrunner because they don't enjoy his work or his vision of the show and will always nitpick. Conversely, there are many who think the sun shines out of his rear and will never be able to objectively criticise him. Both are rather tiresome imo. Moffat isn't perfect - he's done some great stuff and he's got some very distinct weakness as a showrunner and writer which he gets away with due to his position. It happens often in TV. From what I've read so far people are giving their honest opinion on whether they like the stories written which is fair enough. They may like it much more on screen which is also fair enough. There are several people commenting that despite what Moffat's been saying there is no massive change of tone - for some people this is a good thing, for some this is bad. You get fans at both extremes but to essentially place everyone in the pile of 'haters' or 'true fans' is a nonsense - there's many people in the middle somewhere and personally I enjoy reading and discussing their opinions even if it's critical. Critical feedback is interesting!
In the end though, most 'fans' are people who watch it on a Saturday night and then don't really give it a further thought. It's these casual viewers who ironically hold the most power as without them a huge chunk of the audience goes and it's these who the show has to work hardest to please.