Just because a lot of people don't understand what a megabyte out a nanobot is fits not make them stupid. What in earth have you that idea?
I did ask you who you thought would benefit from your proposal? You did not answer.
Everyone as they have a clear understanding of exactly what their allowance is a month other than some vague value totally irrelevant to what they can actually use.
Your proposals benefit who exactly, just those who have no idea what a megabyte is? although this will make it very difficult for them to actually read the FUP.
Do we assume no one understands any technical information then and apply nanny rules for everyone?
Perhaps we should apply it to everything in life buy the new Ford Focus and get unlimited mileage on a tank of petrol, fair mileage policy applies. It would be very helpful for those that don't know what a mile/kilometre means.
Everyone as they have a clear understanding of exactly what their allowance is a month other than some vague value totally irrelevant to what they can actually use.
Your proposals benefit who exactly, just those who have no idea what a megabyte is? although this will make it very difficult for them to actually read the FUP.
Do we assume no one understands any technical information then and apply nanny rules for everyone?
Perhaps we should apply it to everything in life buy the new Ford Focus and get unlimited mileage on a tank of petrol, fair mileage policy applies. It would be very helpful for those that don't know what a mile/kilometre means.
Exactly, it's a unit of measurement just like a meter or a kilowatt hour. Should we not stop doing electricity metering and selling electricity by the kilowatt hour in case some don't understand it?
Maybe we should stop selling petrol by the litre? where does it end?
Maybe people could use the very simple sliders on most mobile providers sites that say how much they want to stream, how many emails and how many websites and then it gives them an idea of how many gigabytes they need.
Why are we advocating confusing consumers who have cared to research and look at what they're getting instead of pandering to the thick ones by pretending it's unlimited but allowing companies to put in very well hidden caps and get-outs.
By making everyone have a defined and exact limit each month rather than 'unlimited' (SwordMan - see flagpoles explanation for what the quotes mean) what benefit will it give people?
By making everyone have a defined and exact limit each month rather than 'unlimited' (SwordMan - see flagpoles explanation for what the quotes mean) what benefit will it give people?
I'm not advocating that, I'm advocating set allowances or unlimited means unlimited.
If they want to say unlimited with a FUP of 10 gigs that's fine, but it has to be in bold print and as visible as they unlimited claim.
Anything that claims to be 'totally unlimited' must be. That is what I'm advocating.
When it comes to consumer contracts and buying something that you are contracting to for 2 years there needs to be no ambiguity, no hidden caps, fees, etc.
I'm not advocating that, I'm advocating set allowances or unlimited means unlimited.
If they want to say unlimited with a FUP of 10 gigs that's fine, but it has to be in bold print and as visible as they unlimited claim.
Anything that claims to be 'totally unlimited' must be. That is what I'm advocating.
When it comes to consumer contracts and buying something that you are contracting to for 2 years there needs to be no ambiguity, no hidden caps, fees, etc.
As soon as companies start doing that they will start enforcing them much more rigorously and that will affect everyones prices in a bad way.
I think it's fair st stay without paying a lot of cash unlimited will never been totally unlimited. As soon as they start having to give a set limit which I expect they don't have at the moment then that will be the end of a decent ammount of data for a good price.
To get rid of the ambiguity then you potentially will mean the majority have to pay more than they do now just because of a few people that go willdy over all the time...the minority spoiling it for the majority.
Unfortunately I think we have to accept that we live in an era where there are two types of 'unlimited', namely
Unlimited with no FUP
Unlimited with a FUP
Sadly the majority of networks now seem to be increasingly falling under the second heading. With only three being described in the first, at least if Tethering is also required.
I think its just as important when choosing a network to ask 'Do you have a Fair Use Policy' as it is to ask 'Do you offer unlimited data'? and potential customers should always be pro-active in asking this.
Or maybe its actually just safer to assume a pessimistic view that 'unlimited' always has some kind of FUP or Catch until you have read the small print or asked customer services in order to prove otherwise!
The onus is always on the customer to read the small print, but unfortunately its a human trait not to read small print whether its taking out a monthly contract, hiring a car or buying a Tv set or a train ticket and I suspect we have all been guilty of that at some point. Its also not helped when a lot of networks bury their Fair Use policies by way of an asterisk, which is then explained in the middle of several pages of other T&C's usually in the smallest possible font.
I think networks should be made to advertise any Fair Use policy directly under the section where each tariff is stated, and in exactly the same font and size as the text promoting the free minutes / free texts, monthly price etc. I think this would quickly clear up a lot of confusion.
In the meantime there is little in the way of entirely unlimited around, other than Three. In fact if anything the networks seem to be stepping back in time, and hardly a month goes by without A.N Other network reducing this, removing that, preventing tethering and in real terms the 'popular' data allowances of 500mb - 1GB we see still present today have remained stagnant and are the same figures we were seeing in 2009 onwards.
Four years on, and very few of the networks are giving us any extra despite all of this faster HSDPA and DC-HSDPA technology, and EE's 4G current data allowances are just laughable.
I remember being on a 10gb per month Data only Tariff with Orange complete with a Dongle for £25 a month back in 2010, at the time, this tariff was one of the best around. Sadly, it was quickly removed a few months later and has never been replaced with anything approaching the same type of allowance on 3G, and that was 2010.
Which again, highlights my point that there is probably less available for frequent data users today, compared to 2010, at least not one which isn't speed capped in some way or policed by a FUP.
In fact other than Three, I can't think of any 3G network who has even offered a 10gb monthly data allowance in the last few years!, apart from Virgin Mobile who once had a 10gb FUP policy last year, but that was short lived also - blink and you would have missed it .
As soon as companies start doing that they will start enforcing them much more rigorously and that will affect everyones prices in a bad way.
I think it's fair st stay without paying a lot of cash unlimited will never been totally unlimited. As soon as they start having to give a set limit which I expect they don't have at the moment then that will be the end of a decent ammount of data for a good price.
To get rid of the ambiguity then you potentially will mean the majority have to pay more than they do now just because of a few people that go willdy over all the time...the minority spoiling it for the majority.
No idea why you think that there is no reason to believe that a company will enforce a set cap over a fup at all, at least with a set amount you can't call foul of a vague fup. If a company is offering unlimited in the first place there should be no reason to imagine their set cap shouldn't be quite high should there?
However to claim unlimited to obtain custom without any explanation of what this unlimited may mean is simply wrong.
As an example if I sign up to giffgaff how much data can I download on the unlimited package as many people seem to be finding difficulty with it but I can see no explanation of what I am entitled to on this unlimited plan.
No idea why you think that there is no reason to believe that a company will enforce a set cap over a fup at all, at least with a set amount you can't call foul of a vague fup. If a company is offering unlimited in the first place there should be no reason to imagine their set cap shouldn't be quite high should there?
However to claim unlimited to obtain custom without any explanation of what this unlimited may mean is simply wrong.
As an example if I sign up to giffgaff how much data can I download on the unlimited package as many people seem to be finding difficulty with it but I can see no explanation of what I am entitled to on this unlimited plan.
Everyone kknows giffgaff have limits (via the ASA)
Both of which a new customer will know nothing about when buying this unlimited sim and which does not always seem to be the case with many on line complaints.
How that equates to everyone knowing what giffgaff limits are is beyond me.
Buying that sim even I would expect it to be unlimited as there is no reason to suspect any different from giff gaff website.
On Orange we've got one person who has done over 100GB since the 3rd June - plan doesn't have a fair usage limit and Orange seem to be sticking to that which is good!
if this post on the Virgin forums is accurate (and absolutely no reason to believe that it isn't) then it looks like the ASA have just slammed (or are about to slam) Virgin Mobile over their 3.5GB Fair Use Policy on Mobile Data being described as 'unlimited'
Edit - Looks like one of Virgin's own forum moderators has moved the forum thread which i linked to above, from its original place on their 'Mobile' forum to the 'General Chat' section
On Orange we've got one person who has done over 100GB since the 3rd June
Iphone extra 51 (£51) - although no longer available to new customers. It gives unlimited data and unlimited tethering with a no fair usage limit.
The person no longer has home broadband and just tethers the phone instead as since EE have upgraded the cell site they now get over 20Mb and 4Mb for upload.
As soon as we heard Orange were changing their plans we moved all our connections to the 51 plan.
Everyone kknows giffgaff have limits (via the ASA)
they are.
1GB an hour
3GB a day
and around 20 OD gb a month
Yes, certainly not as good as Three offers, but Admittedly still better than the majority of the other networks. Faced with limited tariff data options, I'd still much rather have a 20GB monthly usage limit at uncapped speed, than a 3.5gb monthly FUP, after which, should you exceed it, you are bundled into a Delorean and taken back in time to experience the very first 3G speeds c/o Virgin Mobile (at the time I posted this)
And how does this Giff Gaff 1GB / hour (20GB a month) compare to say T-Mobile PAYG, Vodaphone or Orange pay monthly data allowances (The tariffs which are still available to new customers)?.
In a country still running on steam you really have to take what you can get!, and as much as I hate O2 / Giffgaff for its poor coverage, I still have to admit that 20GB of data a month is still pretty reasonable.
I use around 5gb - 6gb a month maximum and this is considered unthinkable by a lot of the other main networks, and its a usage which puts me in a bit of a no mans land tariff wise - so Giff Gaff would actually be one of a very limited number of options for me. Its just a shame that O2 3G coverage is pants in a 10 mile radius around me, and probably won't improve anytime soon.
if this post on the Virgin forums is accurate (and absolutely no reason to believe that it isn't) then it looks like the ASA have just slammed (or are about to slam) Virgin Mobile over their 3.5GB Fair Use Policy on Mobile Data being described as 'unlimited'
An example of how ludicrous this is how, in any reasonable world, can 3.5GB be described as unlimited. People defending this sort of sharp practice should be ashamed of themselves.
Giff Gaff/O2 3G coverage is very substandard compared to Three. And even when you do get 3G you're very, very unlikely to hit download speeds of 11Mbs or higher unlike on EE or Three.
An example of how ludicrous this is how, in any reasonable world, can 3.5GB be described as unlimited. People defending this sort of sharp practice should be ashamed of themselves.
The ASA are discontinuing the case as Virgin are removing the 'unlimited' claims. Virgin have told they ASA they will remove it from the website.
I've seen that but still advertised as such and people signed up to it just plain crazy this is allowed.
My own personal experience with Virgin Mobile was worse than that, originally the FUP was 10gb, which I was made aware of shortly after I signed up to their so called 'unlimited' service. I let it go as it was still reasonably above the 5gb to 6gb which I was routinely using every month.
However it was just a short time later when that FUP was reduced even further, this time from 10gb to 3.5gb which was the final straw. It was bad enough that Virgin Mobile had essentially reduced the FUP by a further 65% in one go just a few months after I had signed up, but the fact that i only found this out when I exceeded 3.5gb and fell foul of the (new) FUP and my download speed dropped dramatically that I went out in search of an explanation and found out about the FUP change - from a pinned post on their forum.
Virgin Mobile hadn't bothered to write to me (nor it seems many other customers) in advance to tell me about, what I considered to be a major change to their service. I would think that most customers, of any network, would consider a 65% reduction, whether it be Data, Minutes or texts to be worthy of being written to, in order to be informed about the change(s).
Unlimited on T-Mobile is fine with the 4Mbps limit as it allows perfect streaming of YouTube videos and BBC iPlayer in HD on a mobile handset.
The Full Monty is a much better option on T-Mobile than the restrictive limits with speed on EE I think.
I have declined the EE upgrade with a limit of 500MB a month as it might be within my usage limit now but I may have to pay a lot more if I want to stream more and the speed won't actually make any difference to my user experience.
As others have already said, unlimited can only mean one thing.. without limits. Anything else, be it FUP, slowdowns, network policy etc etc is not unlimited, and shouldnt be advertised as unlimited.
As others have already said, unlimited can only mean one thing.. without limits. Anything else, be it FUP, slowdowns, network policy etc etc is not unlimited, and shouldnt be advertised as unlimited.
Its not rocket science really!!!
But the networks can have data management policies like 3's Trafficsense or T-Mobile's 4Mbps data cap.
These seem to fall within the 'unlimited' banner without question but offer less than 'unlimited'.
Comments
Everyone as they have a clear understanding of exactly what their allowance is a month other than some vague value totally irrelevant to what they can actually use.
Your proposals benefit who exactly, just those who have no idea what a megabyte is? although this will make it very difficult for them to actually read the FUP.
Do we assume no one understands any technical information then and apply nanny rules for everyone?
Perhaps we should apply it to everything in life buy the new Ford Focus and get unlimited mileage on a tank of petrol, fair mileage policy applies. It would be very helpful for those that don't know what a mile/kilometre means.
Exactly, it's a unit of measurement just like a meter or a kilowatt hour. Should we not stop doing electricity metering and selling electricity by the kilowatt hour in case some don't understand it?
Maybe we should stop selling petrol by the litre? where does it end?
Maybe people could use the very simple sliders on most mobile providers sites that say how much they want to stream, how many emails and how many websites and then it gives them an idea of how many gigabytes they need.
Why are we advocating confusing consumers who have cared to research and look at what they're getting instead of pandering to the thick ones by pretending it's unlimited but allowing companies to put in very well hidden caps and get-outs.
By making everyone have a defined and exact limit each month rather than 'unlimited' (SwordMan - see flagpoles explanation for what the quotes mean) what benefit will it give people?
I'm not advocating that, I'm advocating set allowances or unlimited means unlimited.
If they want to say unlimited with a FUP of 10 gigs that's fine, but it has to be in bold print and as visible as they unlimited claim.
Anything that claims to be 'totally unlimited' must be. That is what I'm advocating.
When it comes to consumer contracts and buying something that you are contracting to for 2 years there needs to be no ambiguity, no hidden caps, fees, etc.
As soon as companies start doing that they will start enforcing them much more rigorously and that will affect everyones prices in a bad way.
I think it's fair st stay without paying a lot of cash unlimited will never been totally unlimited. As soon as they start having to give a set limit which I expect they don't have at the moment then that will be the end of a decent ammount of data for a good price.
To get rid of the ambiguity then you potentially will mean the majority have to pay more than they do now just because of a few people that go willdy over all the time...the minority spoiling it for the majority.
Unlimited with no FUP
Unlimited with a FUP
Sadly the majority of networks now seem to be increasingly falling under the second heading. With only three being described in the first, at least if Tethering is also required.
I think its just as important when choosing a network to ask 'Do you have a Fair Use Policy' as it is to ask 'Do you offer unlimited data'? and potential customers should always be pro-active in asking this.
Or maybe its actually just safer to assume a pessimistic view that 'unlimited' always has some kind of FUP or Catch until you have read the small print or asked customer services in order to prove otherwise!
The onus is always on the customer to read the small print, but unfortunately its a human trait not to read small print whether its taking out a monthly contract, hiring a car or buying a Tv set or a train ticket and I suspect we have all been guilty of that at some point. Its also not helped when a lot of networks bury their Fair Use policies by way of an asterisk, which is then explained in the middle of several pages of other T&C's usually in the smallest possible font.
I think networks should be made to advertise any Fair Use policy directly under the section where each tariff is stated, and in exactly the same font and size as the text promoting the free minutes / free texts, monthly price etc. I think this would quickly clear up a lot of confusion.
In the meantime there is little in the way of entirely unlimited around, other than Three. In fact if anything the networks seem to be stepping back in time, and hardly a month goes by without A.N Other network reducing this, removing that, preventing tethering and in real terms the 'popular' data allowances of 500mb - 1GB we see still present today have remained stagnant and are the same figures we were seeing in 2009 onwards.
Four years on, and very few of the networks are giving us any extra despite all of this faster HSDPA and DC-HSDPA technology, and EE's 4G current data allowances are just laughable.
I remember being on a 10gb per month Data only Tariff with Orange complete with a Dongle for £25 a month back in 2010, at the time, this tariff was one of the best around. Sadly, it was quickly removed a few months later and has never been replaced with anything approaching the same type of allowance on 3G, and that was 2010.
Which again, highlights my point that there is probably less available for frequent data users today, compared to 2010, at least not one which isn't speed capped in some way or policed by a FUP.
In fact other than Three, I can't think of any 3G network who has even offered a 10gb monthly data allowance in the last few years!, apart from Virgin Mobile who once had a 10gb FUP policy last year, but that was short lived also - blink and you would have missed it
Doesn't exactly bode well for the future
No idea why you think that there is no reason to believe that a company will enforce a set cap over a fup at all, at least with a set amount you can't call foul of a vague fup. If a company is offering unlimited in the first place there should be no reason to imagine their set cap shouldn't be quite high should there?
However to claim unlimited to obtain custom without any explanation of what this unlimited may mean is simply wrong.
As an example if I sign up to giffgaff how much data can I download on the unlimited package as many people seem to be finding difficulty with it but I can see no explanation of what I am entitled to on this unlimited plan.
Totally, my phones downstairs now, but i've downloaded many gigs and never got a warning after 7 months on the one plan.
Everyone kknows giffgaff have limits (via the ASA)
they are.
1GB an hour
3GB a day
and around 20 OD gb a month
So the argument here is that everyone knows the limits of giffgaffs unlimited plan is but not what a MB is :rolleyes:
the monthly usage is from my own experience.
And also@ http://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2012/8/giffgaff-Ltd/SHP_ADJ_192632.aspx
How that equates to everyone knowing what giffgaff limits are is beyond me.
Buying that sim even I would expect it to be unlimited as there is no reason to suspect any different from giff gaff website.
http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Mobile/Virgin-slammed-over-unlimited-claims/td-p/1873976
Edit - Looks like one of Virgin's own forum moderators has moved the forum thread which i linked to above, from its original place on their 'Mobile' forum to the 'General Chat' section
What Tariff is this on?
Iphone extra 51 (£51) - although no longer available to new customers. It gives unlimited data and unlimited tethering with a no fair usage limit.
The person no longer has home broadband and just tethers the phone instead as since EE have upgraded the cell site they now get over 20Mb and 4Mb for upload.
As soon as we heard Orange were changing their plans we moved all our connections to the 51 plan.
Yes, certainly not as good as Three offers, but Admittedly still better than the majority of the other networks. Faced with limited tariff data options, I'd still much rather have a 20GB monthly usage limit at uncapped speed, than a 3.5gb monthly FUP, after which, should you exceed it, you are bundled into a Delorean and taken back in time to experience the very first 3G speeds c/o Virgin Mobile (at the time I posted this)
And how does this Giff Gaff 1GB / hour (20GB a month) compare to say T-Mobile PAYG, Vodaphone or Orange pay monthly data allowances (The tariffs which are still available to new customers)?.
In a country still running on steam you really have to take what you can get!, and as much as I hate O2 / Giffgaff for its poor coverage, I still have to admit that 20GB of data a month is still pretty reasonable.
I use around 5gb - 6gb a month maximum and this is considered unthinkable by a lot of the other main networks, and its a usage which puts me in a bit of a no mans land tariff wise - so Giff Gaff would actually be one of a very limited number of options for me. Its just a shame that O2 3G coverage is pants in a 10 mile radius around me, and probably won't improve anytime soon.
An example of how ludicrous this is how, in any reasonable world, can 3.5GB be described as unlimited. People defending this sort of sharp practice should be ashamed of themselves.
The ASA are discontinuing the case as Virgin are removing the 'unlimited' claims. Virgin have told they ASA they will remove it from the website.
I've seen that but still advertised as such and people signed up to it just plain crazy this is allowed.
Advertise what we want until busted, ASA are useless anyway this should be taken way beyond them.
My own personal experience with Virgin Mobile was worse than that, originally the FUP was 10gb, which I was made aware of shortly after I signed up to their so called 'unlimited' service. I let it go as it was still reasonably above the 5gb to 6gb which I was routinely using every month.
However it was just a short time later when that FUP was reduced even further, this time from 10gb to 3.5gb which was the final straw. It was bad enough that Virgin Mobile had essentially reduced the FUP by a further 65% in one go just a few months after I had signed up, but the fact that i only found this out when I exceeded 3.5gb and fell foul of the (new) FUP and my download speed dropped dramatically that I went out in search of an explanation and found out about the FUP change - from a pinned post on their forum.
Virgin Mobile hadn't bothered to write to me (nor it seems many other customers) in advance to tell me about, what I considered to be a major change to their service. I would think that most customers, of any network, would consider a 65% reduction, whether it be Data, Minutes or texts to be worthy of being written to, in order to be informed about the change(s).
The Full Monty is a much better option on T-Mobile than the restrictive limits with speed on EE I think.
I have declined the EE upgrade with a limit of 500MB a month as it might be within my usage limit now but I may have to pay a lot more if I want to stream more and the speed won't actually make any difference to my user experience.
Its not rocket science really!!!
But the networks can have data management policies like 3's Trafficsense or T-Mobile's 4Mbps data cap.
These seem to fall within the 'unlimited' banner without question but offer less than 'unlimited'.