can you be bothered to explain where i have made assumptions and where i have misunderstood?
others have been more helpful in explaining.
from my perspective, the notion that removing the planet being attacked from the line of fire caused all the Daleks to fire on themselves seems basic to be generous and ludicrous if i'm being honest. they also came up with this about 30 seconds after the best idea they had was mass genocide?
why did the doctors all turn up at that point in time, the time war had not occurred from the perspective of the first 7 doctors, right?
the idea that "the moment" can break the time lock is fine, but the doctor would have known this and for the past 3 versions of his regeneration's he has been saying that this is not possible.
maybe it's more lazy than stupid, and you are right. maybe that by expecting things make sense within the shows established logic is wrong of me.
BIB - It was a fixed point in time. It had to happen like that. And although the 3 Doctors were involved in the show all 13 turned up due to the fixed point in time. And like Hurt and Tennant, they forgot it occurred because they were entering their future time stream. There is still no issue with that as far as I can see.
They have explained it, but I'd be more than happy to -
He himself claims he's been fighting for too long. And he kind of does end the Time War, along with all the other incarnations.
He might have regenerated into a young Fourth Doctor, and lived many years. We don't know that - we already know that Timelords can control their regenerations. Why not revisit old faces?
No, 11 came up with it 400 years after making the decision to commit mass genocide. Or rather, he was thinking about it for 400 years, and the idea fully formed then. With the help of Clara reminding him of who he is.
The Time War was raging throughout time, so in a way it was. Besides, when the Doctor calls upon himself for help, then he knows it is serious and will help. That's not an unusual or unprecedented happening.
Why would he remember that, but not remember he didn't commit genocide? That wouldn't make any narrative sense.
I really don't agree that any of the writing was lazy. You might not have enjoyed it yourself, but there was nothing either stupid or lazy about it. It also uses well established Doctor Who universe logic... so I'm not sure why you felt that last dig at it was necessary. There's nothing in the episode that contradicts anything established in the show. That was meticulously planned (which shows claims of 'lazy' and 'stupid' are misguided at best).
first up i thought it was just fine as an episode of DW and also thanks for taking the time to explain you thoughts, i don't agree with it all as it's asking for assumptions to be made which are not explicit, but at least there's logic (and i assume a lot of background knowledge into the show on your part helps).
the basic premise is that anything can be re-done by the doctor, even when he says it can't, because he's probably already re-done it, but he can't remember it when he's re- done it.
BIB - It was a fixed point in time. It had to happen like that. And although the 3 Doctors were involved in the show all 13 turned up due to the fixed point in time. And like Hurt and Tennant, they forgot it occurred because they were entering their future time stream. There is still no issue with that as far as I can see.
sorry munta, sebbie3000 beat you to it.
does Matt smith's doctor also forget it as the 13th dr was there?
first up i thought it was just fine as an episode of DW and also thanks for taking the time to explain you thoughts, i don't agree with it all as it's asking for assumptions to be made which are not explicit, but at least there's logic (and i assume a lot of background knowledge into the show on your part helps).
the basic premise is that anything can be re-done by the doctor, even when he says it can't, because he's probably already re-done it, but he can't remember it when he's re- done it.
I suppose that might be of some help - but only really minimal I think.
Anyway, I would prefer to think that it's more along the lines of: Things that can't be changed by the Doctor remain unchanged, but sometimes revealing the truth challenges the established notions...
Sorry, I strongly disagree with the idea that The Doctor just blanked out and assumed he used The Moment. It contradicts Nine's line that "he watched it happen" and "millions of Dalek ships on fire". In my view he did originally activate the moment and destroyed Gallifrey, but The Moment crated an alternate timeline, similar to the OP's idea. I think if Gallifrey was safe all along it would really undervalue some moments throughout the series; sure, it's all the same for The Doctor, but it's not too satisfying from the audience's perspective on repeated views.
Sorry am not as clued up as most people are on here - Are the people on Gallifrey in the painting suspended in time or are they living their lives? The Doctors and Clara could break out, can't they?
The status cube puts people into "paintings" which are frozen instances in time. They come in, they come out. So ... how come the dalek came out? Can things that didn't go in also come out? If so, why not hire a time lord to freeze a moment in time containing hundreds of well-armed, intensely loyal bezerker troops. Copy the "painting" a few hundred times and hey presto ...the perfect army!
Also, when the three doctors appeared in the Gallifrey "painting" they used three sonic screwdrivers against one dalek, which then flew backwards. So ... why doesn't the doctor just carry three sonic screwdrivers?
Did anyone else notice the "comedic" bit near the beginning when a dalek exploded and a squidgy thing came flying out? I just love replaying that clip and saying "weeeeeeeee!!" every time.
Sorry, I strongly disagree with the idea that The Doctor just blanked out and assumed he used The Moment. It contradicts Nine's line that "he watched it happen" and "millions of Dalek ships on fire". In my view he did originally activate the moment and destroyed Gallifrey, but The Moment crated an alternate timeline, similar to the OP's idea. I think if Gallifrey was safe all along it would really undervalue some moments throughout the series; sure, it's all the same for The Doctor, but it's not too satisfying from the audience's perspective on repeated views.
Hi, OP here. I thought that too, but then thought he would just mistake the dalek ships firing in on themselves and Gallifrey disappearing as himself using The Moment.
You missed the next bit: Clearly led to in the actual episode... A smaller version of which was used to 'escape' with the sonics of the three of them.
There was no deus ex machina - surely if you know what it is you know there wasn't one.
I don't get your last sentence. The whole point was that The Moment was nudging the Doctor to choose the right path. So... pretty much, yeah - it took the story where the writer wanted it to go.
Which is what all stories do - go where the writer wants it to, that is.
I don't get your issue with that.
not sure what you mean by foreshadowing , she just appeared didn't she ?
the thing with the writer is - he shouldn't be apparent .
Bad Wolf just seemed to be too often nudging him not do it , helping him find a way not to do it , interrupting him from doing it - too much interference .
Sorry, I strongly disagree with the idea that The Doctor just blanked out and assumed he used The Moment. It contradicts Nine's line that "he watched it happen" and "millions of Dalek ships on fire". In my view he did originally activate the moment and destroyed Gallifrey, but The Moment crated an alternate timeline, similar to the OP's idea. I think if Gallifrey was safe all along it would really undervalue some moments throughout the series; sure, it's all the same for The Doctor, but it's not too satisfying from the audience's perspective on repeated views.
hmm ... good point .
the question is - how did he survive detonating The Moment ? he was on Galifrey at the time wasn't he ? I was a bit confused by the desert bit , was it a real desert on Galifrey ?
not sure what you mean by foreshadowing , she just appeared didn't she ?
the thing with the writer is - he shouldn't be apparent .
Bad Wolf just seemed to be too often nudging him not do it , helping him find a way not to do it , interrupting him from doing it - too much interference .
Did you mean Bad Wolf Rose as the deus ex machina? Then you would be completely wrong! She appeared very early on in the story - canno ttherefore be a sudden or unexpectred arrival to fix the problem at the end of the story...
We also had it explained, quite clearly, that the weapon had gained a conscience. A conscience suggests it would rather not blow people up. Perfectly acceptable in narrative... Not entirely sure why you think the whole premise of a particular character is either a deus ex machina, or the writer being too obvious... It's how stories are told.
Did you mean Bad Wolf Rose as the deus ex machina? Then you would be completely wrong! She appeared very early on in the story - canno ttherefore be a sudden or unexpectred arrival to fix the problem at the end of the story...
We also had it explained, quite clearly, that the weapon had gained a conscience. A conscience suggests it would rather not blow people up. Perfectly acceptable in narrative... Not entirely sure why you think the whole premise of a particular character is either a deus ex machina, or the writer being too obvious... It's how stories are told.
well the story is ongoing , but as far as this story is concerned - the time war and how it ended , then yes she does seem rather like a deus-ex-machina who suddenly appears to help fix things .
a conscience is one thing but why did she interfere and manipulate events so much ? seemed more like a God to me.
well the story is ongoing , but as far as this story is concerned - the time war and how it ended , then yes she does seem rather like a deus-ex-machina who suddenly appears to help fix things .
a conscience is one thing but why did she interfere and manipulate events so much ? seemed more like a God to me.
I'm sorry, but your own perception of a narrative does not a deus ex machina make. The Moment is not one. We were lead to believe that is how it played out all along. And she/it was there from very early on in the story to allow us to know her/its purpose.
Why ask the question: 'why did she interfere and manipulate events so much?', when you've answered it with the previous statement: 'a conscience'
The Moment has a conscience, it knows what it will do to all the innocent children should it be used. It doesn't want to kill them. That's what having a conscience does...
Yes, the paradox was explained by the immediate regeneration of the Doctor and the plain fact that faced with the evidence - that Gallifrey has disappeared and the Daleks have been wiped out - the Doctor assumed the Moment had been used.
What the Doctor does and does not 'remember' (if memory is the same for Time Lords as it is for humans, which is debatable) is a loose affair and always has been. For example, Smith's Doctor says, when the portal opens 'of course, this is where I come in' (at 26:40) suggesting that he's remembering from his experience as the previous incarnation. But that remark is left unqualified.
In short, if we approached memory only from a human perspective, there would be lots of other time-line relationships which would demand comment almost continuously; there simply isn't enough time in the show to do this (not even with the benefit of time travel!)
So what was it that triggered John Hurt's regeneration?
Old age. He said he was weaing thin. And the First says the same.
So nothing more than that? Nothing in DoTD that might have caused him to start it? Or was it more of a case that he regenerated simply as a way to get some energy back after a long day much like we do that when we sleep?
I'm sorry, but your own perception of a narrative does not a deus ex machina make. The Moment is not one. We were lead to believe that is how it played out all along. And she/it was there from very early on in the story to allow us to know her/its purpose.
Why ask the question: 'why did she interfere and manipulate events so much?', when you've answered it with the previous statement: 'a conscience'
The Moment has a conscience, it knows what it will do to all the innocent children should it be used. It doesn't want to kill them. That's what having a conscience does...
I think you described this very well here. In fact, it made me consider the following; the Moment was doing what the Doctor normally does - ie. it was a superior intelligence that did everything it could to push people into making a morally good choice.
So nothing more than that? Nothing in DoTD that might have caused him to start it? Or was it more of a case that he regenerated simply as a way to get some energy back after a long day much like we do that when we sleep?
Like many old people he tied up loose ends (The Time War) before he felt able to pass on
So nothing more than that? Nothing in DoTD that might have caused him to start it? Or was it more of a case that he regenerated simply as a way to get some energy back after a long day much like we do that when we sleep?
I think Time Lords don't "age" as we do. I think experiences ages them, not time (lol). Of the doctors, three have aged (Hartnell, McGann, Hurt) whilst the rest haven't. They must have seen some bad stuff. Smith spent 300 years on his own and barely aged a day.
Of course, it just might be linked to the fact the the actors playing the parts either age or don't!
I think Time Lords don't "age" as we do. I think experiences ages them, not time (lol). Of the doctors, three have aged (Hartnell, McGann, Hurt) whilst the rest haven't. They must have seen some bad stuff. Smith spent 300 years on his own and barely aged a day.
Of course, it just might be linked to the fact the the actors playing the parts either age or don't!
Well... Ten looked aged (by about 3 years) considering he was just about to start EoT prt1. McCoy aged as well by the way. But yeah perhaps that is right. Maybe sometimes they just get tired and therefore use more incarnation energy and therefore age more.
If only the latest incarnation remembers and all others forget saving Gallifrey, what if the latest incarnation were "Curator" Who, couldn't that actually mean that 11 will forget doing it as well?
Or might he at least forget the name of the painting "Gallifrey falls no more"?
Comments
BIB - It was a fixed point in time. It had to happen like that. And although the 3 Doctors were involved in the show all 13 turned up due to the fixed point in time. And like Hurt and Tennant, they forgot it occurred because they were entering their future time stream. There is still no issue with that as far as I can see.
first up i thought it was just fine as an episode of DW and also thanks for taking the time to explain you thoughts, i don't agree with it all as it's asking for assumptions to be made which are not explicit, but at least there's logic (and i assume a lot of background knowledge into the show on your part helps).
the basic premise is that anything can be re-done by the doctor, even when he says it can't, because he's probably already re-done it, but he can't remember it when he's re- done it.
sorry munta, sebbie3000 beat you to it.
does Matt smith's doctor also forget it as the 13th dr was there?
I suppose that might be of some help - but only really minimal I think.
Anyway, I would prefer to think that it's more along the lines of: Things that can't be changed by the Doctor remain unchanged, but sometimes revealing the truth challenges the established notions...
I doun't think it will - we were following the 11th Doctor's timeline, so it would be the 12th that was out of sync...
Maybe it will be the other way, though. At this point, there's no evidence that suggests anything particularly strongly.
The status cube puts people into "paintings" which are frozen instances in time. They come in, they come out. So ... how come the dalek came out? Can things that didn't go in also come out? If so, why not hire a time lord to freeze a moment in time containing hundreds of well-armed, intensely loyal bezerker troops. Copy the "painting" a few hundred times and hey presto ...the perfect army!
Also, when the three doctors appeared in the Gallifrey "painting" they used three sonic screwdrivers against one dalek, which then flew backwards. So ... why doesn't the doctor just carry three sonic screwdrivers?
Did anyone else notice the "comedic" bit near the beginning when a dalek exploded and a squidgy thing came flying out? I just love replaying that clip and saying "weeeeeeeee!!" every time.
Hi, OP here. I thought that too, but then thought he would just mistake the dalek ships firing in on themselves and Gallifrey disappearing as himself using The Moment.
not sure what you mean by foreshadowing , she just appeared didn't she ?
the thing with the writer is - he shouldn't be apparent .
Bad Wolf just seemed to be too often nudging him not do it , helping him find a way not to do it , interrupting him from doing it - too much interference .
hmm ... good point .
the question is - how did he survive detonating The Moment ? he was on Galifrey at the time wasn't he ? I was a bit confused by the desert bit , was it a real desert on Galifrey ?
.
MS didn't interact with Capaldi's Doc tho , and Smith may not even have known he was there .
Did you mean Bad Wolf Rose as the deus ex machina? Then you would be completely wrong! She appeared very early on in the story - canno ttherefore be a sudden or unexpectred arrival to fix the problem at the end of the story...
We also had it explained, quite clearly, that the weapon had gained a conscience. A conscience suggests it would rather not blow people up. Perfectly acceptable in narrative... Not entirely sure why you think the whole premise of a particular character is either a deus ex machina, or the writer being too obvious... It's how stories are told.
It was Matt Smiths timeline so Capaldi wont forget it because its in his actual history. Do keep up
well the story is ongoing , but as far as this story is concerned - the time war and how it ended , then yes she does seem rather like a deus-ex-machina who suddenly appears to help fix things .
a conscience is one thing but why did she interfere and manipulate events so much ? seemed more like a God to me.
Because The Moment knows it is moralistically wrong to destroy billions of people. It therefore does all it can to prevent itself from being used.
I'm sorry, but your own perception of a narrative does not a deus ex machina make. The Moment is not one. We were lead to believe that is how it played out all along. And she/it was there from very early on in the story to allow us to know her/its purpose.
Why ask the question: 'why did she interfere and manipulate events so much?', when you've answered it with the previous statement: 'a conscience'
The Moment has a conscience, it knows what it will do to all the innocent children should it be used. It doesn't want to kill them. That's what having a conscience does...
So what was it that triggered John Hurt's regeneration?
Old age. He said he was weaing thin. And the First says the same.
So nothing more than that? Nothing in DoTD that might have caused him to start it? Or was it more of a case that he regenerated simply as a way to get some energy back after a long day much like we do that when we sleep?
I think you described this very well here. In fact, it made me consider the following; the Moment was doing what the Doctor normally does - ie. it was a superior intelligence that did everything it could to push people into making a morally good choice.
Like many old people he tied up loose ends (The Time War) before he felt able to pass on
I think Time Lords don't "age" as we do. I think experiences ages them, not time (lol). Of the doctors, three have aged (Hartnell, McGann, Hurt) whilst the rest haven't. They must have seen some bad stuff. Smith spent 300 years on his own and barely aged a day.
Of course, it just might be linked to the fact the the actors playing the parts either age or don't!
I dread to think how big a Time Lord Last Will and Testament might look.
Well... Ten looked aged (by about 3 years) considering he was just about to start EoT prt1. McCoy aged as well by the way. But yeah perhaps that is right. Maybe sometimes they just get tired and therefore use more incarnation energy and therefore age more.
Quite short I would imagine …
Then regenerates to collect their inheritance.
As I mentioned elsewhere yesterday …
Or might he at least forget the name of the painting "Gallifrey falls no more"?