Still a lot of contradictions over the death (or not) of Aaron Stark's daughter. The story that soldier was telling him did not match what we were being shown. The soldier said twice that he saw her die, whereas what we saw was her body lying there with her right leg missing. How was he so sure she was dead?
Also, didn't Aaron say in the first episode that all that was shipped back from Afghanistan was a few ponds of remains? Perhaps, as suggested earlier, all that came back was her leg!
Who were they chasing in the dessert? It sounded like she said "Those are Jericho". Is that a US soldiers term for something?
btw...There seemed to be a bit of a mix up with the props in that scene. The leg was shown to be blown off at the thigh, but when we saw her whole body, it was blown off just above the knee.
I couldn't help but wonder if the writers had been watching "Generation Kill", given the radio call of "Godfather, this is Hitman 2, we're Oscar Mike, chasing some Hajis".
Dunno what the "Jericho" thing meant, but those guys certainly didn't look like your typical Taliban etc.
I agree with people's comments about this being a good episode.
Good that we're starting to get some answers regarding whether everything seen really is truly fixed & must occur as it happened in the FFs. Like pi r squared, I was expecting to see him get saved from jumping (either that, or by some freaky occurance he'd land on this Celia woman, breaking his fall & killing her).
So I guess the future is not inevitable. What was seen can be changed. So the FFs were a glimpse of what *might* happen, not what necessarily *will* happen?
...by some freaky occurance he'd land on this Celia woman, breaking his fall & killing her....
Oh the irony. LOL
I cant understand why Dr. Bryce Varley was so concerned about finding the Japanese woman. Why does he have to find her at all? If he believes that his flashforward will come true, then he doesn't have to do anything. Que sera, sera.
What I'm not looking forward to is next week's reveal of how Stark's daughter was in his house.... Because she is seemingly flawless when Stark sees her, yet in five months' time supposedly she is all scratched up, somewhere seemingly far away,
Well she had two crutches up against the table next to her, and that was the only damage we saw of her when we saw that guys recollection.
She lost one leg, below the knee. There have been servicemen that have lost limbs but still returned to war. so she could go back out with a prosthetic.
Just a theory,
i can't wait for the next episode. I'm gutted Gough jumped. but it was necessary. He's giving hope to Dem now aswell.
Still a lot of contradictions over the death (or not) of Aaron Stark's daughter. The story that soldier was telling him did not match what we were being shown. The soldier said twice that he saw her die, whereas what we saw was her body lying there with her right leg missing. How was he so sure she was dead?
Also, didn't Aaron say in the first episode that all that was shipped back from Afghanistan was a few ponds of remains? Perhaps, as suggested earlier, all that came back was her leg!
Who were they chasing in the dessert? It sounded like she said "Those are Jericho". Is that a US soldiers term for something?
btw...There seemed to be a bit of a mix up with the props in that scene. The leg was shown to be blown off at the thigh, but when we saw her whole body, it was blown off just above the knee.
Jericho was a TV show about nuclear attack survivors, could have something to do with nuclear.
I thought the "Jericho" they mentioned was the type of missile being used.
As the sand cleared and we saw the "baddies" holding a missile launcher, she shouts "It's a Jericho!" and he shouts "Get out of the truck"
So I assumed it was a very powerful missile that they knew would open a Hummer like a sardine tin.
So I guess the future is not inevitable. What was seen can be changed. So the FFs were a glimpse of what *might* happen, not what necessarily *will* happen?
What they saw was what happened in an alternate timeline in which the flash forwards didn't happen (or possibly in that timeline there were flash forwards of a third timeline). But the act of seeing the flash forwards changed that future and split off a new timeline in which the flash forwards happened. Many of the things they saw in the flash forwards will happen by default, due to the same reasons it happened originally. But they don't have to happen the same way, if people make different choices based on what they saw in their flash forward.
In many ways this interpretation is much less problematic. There are lots of logical contradictions with the other interpretation. The only real contradiction this way is the board of evidence from his investigation, since the investigation was apparently about the flash forward itself. It's possible that something else got him started investigating the same group of people, and the investigation led in many of the same directions. Although the "blue hand" thing is weird, since it seems like a direct response to the flash forwards rather than part of a criminal conspiracy.
What they saw was what happened in an alternate timeline in which the flash forwards didn't happen (or possibly in that timeline there were flash forwards of a third timeline). But the act of seeing the flash forwards changed that future and split off a new timeline in which the flash forwards happened. Many of the things they saw in the flash forwards will happen by default, due to the same reasons it happened originally. But they don't have to happen the same way, if people make different choices based on what they saw in their flash forward.
Yes, I like that theory. They saw *a* future but not *the* future. It explains why everyone wasn't standing around waiting for the FF moment to arrive
In many ways this interpretation is much less problematic. There are lots of logical contradictions with the other interpretation. The only real contradiction this way is the board of evidence from his investigation, since the investigation was apparently about the flash forward itself.
Does the board itself mention anything about a FF? Couldn't it just be about any major investigation.
The other contradiction is explaining how the Hobbit's girl was at a "New Year's" party in April with half a million other people.
Now I understand why Lee Thompson Young was only a Guest star...........such a good episode and was the game-changer that had been previously mentioned.
Am really enjoying this series........and really want to know how Tracy is there all looking alive and well. I hope its not a dream.
I'm glad I'm sticking with it, and I wish others would do the same rather than picking "plotholes" when something hasn't been fully explained yet. I'm glad this episode has changed some people's minds, but why can't they just enjoy the story and see where it goes, rather than question every little thing in a negative manner, rather than question it in the way that it's intended...e.g. a mystery, which will be solved in time.
I thought the "Jericho" they mentioned was the type of missile being used.
As the sand cleared and we saw the "baddies" holding a missile launcher, she shouts "It's a Jericho!" and he shouts "Get out of the truck"
So I assumed it was a very powerful missile that they knew would open a Hummer like a sardine tin.
Ahh right.
What made me think she was talking about the people rather than the weapons, was that just before she said "those are jericho", the other soldier said "who the hell are these guys? Those aren't Hadji's"
Looking at that scene again, she does probably mean the weapons.
Well she had two crutches up against the table next to her, and that was the only damage we saw of her when we saw that guys recollection.
She lost one leg, below the knee. There have been servicemen that have lost limbs but still returned to war. so she could go back out with a prosthetic.
Yes, you are totally right - I missed the crutches on first viewing. So maybe she is "real", after all - the guy who met Aaron didn't describe her leg being blown off, so there would be no reason for Aaron to dream of crutches if this were indeed a dream sequence.
The whole scene still doesn't sit right with me though. I know it's TV and all and it makes for better drama this way, but it just seems ridiculous to me that someone would spend 2 years missing presumed dead, but doesn't bother to get in touch on return to the UK but just decides to rock up and sit in their house instead.
Yes, you are totally right - I missed the crutches on first viewing. So maybe she is "real", after all - the guy who met Aaron didn't describe her leg being blown off, so there would be no reason for Aaron to dream of crutches if this were indeed a dream sequence.
The whole scene still doesn't sit right with me though. I know it's TV and all and it makes for better drama this way, but it just seems ridiculous to me that someone would spend 2 years missing presumed dead, but doesn't bother to get in touch on return to the UK but just decides to rock up and sit in their house instead.
We don't know the full story yet - I got the impression that the guy who saw her "die" ran off, didn't get a chance to confirm it, assumed she was dead - and that it's some kind of military coverup, given the people who they were chasing and then later found out wasn't who they thought it was?
So depending on who's covering up what, and whether she's escaped or gone against protocol, she may not have been able to get in touch...
And do we know where they were posted,etc? Anywhere near were the towers and dead crows etc were happening? could the military already be aware of stuff, and were trying to harness it's power with the help of Simon and Lloyd etc.
Yes, you are totally right - I missed the crutches on first viewing. So maybe she is "real", after all - the guy who met Aaron didn't describe her leg being blown off, so there would be no reason for Aaron to dream of crutches if this were indeed a dream sequence...
But surely action sequences are used to show us visually what a person is describing. The fact that her blown off leg was shown means (to me anyway) that he told Aaron this during his description of what happened.
Yes, you are totally right - I missed the crutches on first viewing. So maybe she is "real", after all - the guy who met Aaron didn't describe her leg being blown off, so there would be no reason for Aaron to dream of crutches if this were indeed a dream sequence.
The whole scene still doesn't sit right with me though. I know it's TV and all and it makes for better drama this way, but it just seems ridiculous to me that someone would spend 2 years missing presumed dead, but doesn't bother to get in touch on return to the UK but just decides to rock up and sit in their house instead.
Some havering your doing there bud:Dwe seen her leg blown off while her colleague was telling her dad what occured and never in a million years would a "dream " be used as a cliffhanger,and yes dramatic license being used when she turns up in the US not UK.
But surely action sequences are used to show us visually what a person is describing. The fact that her blown off leg was shown means (to me anyway) that he told Aaron this during his description of what happened.
Maybe, but I interpreted that scene as highlighting to the viewer the contrast and conflict between what Willingham was telling Stark, and what actually happened - after all, Willingham states that he "watched Tracy die", where in actual fact he didn't appear to. You could be right though and it could well be just poor dialogue choices.
Does everyone think that Al was meant to be killed off so soon? I know that they are still filming as we speak, so can probably chop and change. For me, Al didnt seem to be the character to kill himself, and this Celia has only just happened this episode (although we saw a glimpse of the later part of his flashback in ep.6 I think).
It did seem rushed for me, but I still think its a great episode and a great series.
What they saw was what happened in an alternate timeline in which the flash forwards didn't happen (or possibly in that timeline there were flash forwards of a third timeline). But the act of seeing the flash forwards changed that future and split off a new timeline in which the flash forwards happened. Many of the things they saw in the flash forwards will happen by default, due to the same reasons it happened originally. But they don't have to happen the same way, if people make different choices based on what they saw in their flash forward.
In many ways this interpretation is much less problematic. There are lots of logical contradictions with the other interpretation. The only real contradiction this way is the board of evidence from his investigation, since the investigation was apparently about the flash forward itself. It's possible that something else got him started investigating the same group of people, and the investigation led in many of the same directions. Although the "blue hand" thing is weird, since it seems like a direct response to the flash forwards rather than part of a criminal conspiracy.
I reckon it could be thing to do with a sort of repeating time loop with each iteration changing a bit .... otherwise why would everyone be going about their normal business, seemingly unconcerned when the FF date came around?
But clearly there had also been a FF in that timeline since detective alco had that board up with all the clues.
Maybe what they do in the future causes the 'forward-date' of the FF to change so each iteration is going to be different to the last with people reacting differently because they got different FFs this time around.
A bit like a worldwide version of 'Groundhog Day'. Sooner or later the FBI team will get it right, getting a bit closer each time. Probably this is going to tell the story of the iteration where they finally get it right.
This week's episode was really good, I agree this has been the best one so far...The ending was rather sad seeing Al jump...I agree with jonny86 he didn't seem the type to do something drastic like this...This will definately throw a spanner in the works for his other colleagues
...I was rather confused about his vision because I'm sure I heard him say 'I killed him' and then he says something about Celia...so then I assumed it was him who killed Demetri...I guess not...It would have been nice to see them explain Al's FF properly or this Celia character
...anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, especially now, seeing Aaron's daughter who 'appears' to be alive and the aftermath of Al's death...xo
Does everyone think that Al was meant to be killed off so soon? I know that they are still filming as we speak, so can probably chop and change. For me, Al didnt seem to be the character to kill himself, and this Celia has only just happened this episode
In the fourth episode ("Black Swan"), Gough was seen typing "Celia" into the Mosaic search engine, so no it hasn't "only just happened this episode". With regards to whether he was to be killed off so soon, the guy who plays him was always credited as a guest star rather than a series regular, so I would say that from the off he wasn't planned to be in it for long.
When he was stood on the edge of the building, I realised that actually I do care for these characters a bit more than I realised. Though I do still think Mark Benford is an utter dick.
I'm glad I'm sticking with it, and I wish others would do the same rather than picking "plotholes" when something hasn't been fully explained yet. I'm glad this episode has changed some people's minds, but why can't they just enjoy the story and see where it goes, rather than question every little thing in a negative manner, rather than question it in the way that it's intended...e.g. a mystery, which will be solved in time.
I don't think those are the reasons that people have ditched it... I think it's more to do with the characterisation/acting/sub-plot writing.
The guys who launched the missle looked like private mercenary contractors, they are paid as mercenaries to "support" the war effort in Iraq and Afghanistan. The same ground was covered in ABCs "Jericho" so maybe a nod to that show? If so could point to some sort of high level conspiracy - as did the shooting of Janis last week.
Comments
I couldn't help but wonder if the writers had been watching "Generation Kill", given the radio call of "Godfather, this is Hitman 2, we're Oscar Mike, chasing some Hajis".
Dunno what the "Jericho" thing meant, but those guys certainly didn't look like your typical Taliban etc.
I agree with people's comments about this being a good episode.
Good that we're starting to get some answers regarding whether everything seen really is truly fixed & must occur as it happened in the FFs. Like pi r squared, I was expecting to see him get saved from jumping (either that, or by some freaky occurance he'd land on this Celia woman, breaking his fall & killing her).
So I guess the future is not inevitable. What was seen can be changed. So the FFs were a glimpse of what *might* happen, not what necessarily *will* happen?
I cant understand why Dr. Bryce Varley was so concerned about finding the Japanese woman. Why does he have to find her at all? If he believes that his flashforward will come true, then he doesn't have to do anything. Que sera, sera.
Well she had two crutches up against the table next to her, and that was the only damage we saw of her when we saw that guys recollection.
She lost one leg, below the knee. There have been servicemen that have lost limbs but still returned to war. so she could go back out with a prosthetic.
Just a theory,
i can't wait for the next episode. I'm gutted Gough jumped. but it was necessary. He's giving hope to Dem now aswell.
Jericho was a TV show about nuclear attack survivors, could have something to do with nuclear.
As the sand cleared and we saw the "baddies" holding a missile launcher, she shouts "It's a Jericho!" and he shouts "Get out of the truck"
So I assumed it was a very powerful missile that they knew would open a Hummer like a sardine tin.
What they saw was what happened in an alternate timeline in which the flash forwards didn't happen (or possibly in that timeline there were flash forwards of a third timeline). But the act of seeing the flash forwards changed that future and split off a new timeline in which the flash forwards happened. Many of the things they saw in the flash forwards will happen by default, due to the same reasons it happened originally. But they don't have to happen the same way, if people make different choices based on what they saw in their flash forward.
In many ways this interpretation is much less problematic. There are lots of logical contradictions with the other interpretation. The only real contradiction this way is the board of evidence from his investigation, since the investigation was apparently about the flash forward itself. It's possible that something else got him started investigating the same group of people, and the investigation led in many of the same directions. Although the "blue hand" thing is weird, since it seems like a direct response to the flash forwards rather than part of a criminal conspiracy.
Yes, I like that theory. They saw *a* future but not *the* future. It explains why everyone wasn't standing around waiting for the FF moment to arrive
Does the board itself mention anything about a FF? Couldn't it just be about any major investigation.
The other contradiction is explaining how the Hobbit's girl was at a "New Year's" party in April with half a million other people.
Am really enjoying this series........and really want to know how Tracy is there all looking alive and well. I hope its not a dream.
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/121/legz.jpg
What made me think she was talking about the people rather than the weapons, was that just before she said "those are jericho", the other soldier said "who the hell are these guys? Those aren't Hadji's"
Looking at that scene again, she does probably mean the weapons.
The whole scene still doesn't sit right with me though. I know it's TV and all and it makes for better drama this way, but it just seems ridiculous to me that someone would spend 2 years missing presumed dead, but doesn't bother to get in touch on return to the UK but just decides to rock up and sit in their house instead.
We don't know the full story yet - I got the impression that the guy who saw her "die" ran off, didn't get a chance to confirm it, assumed she was dead - and that it's some kind of military coverup, given the people who they were chasing and then later found out wasn't who they thought it was?
So depending on who's covering up what, and whether she's escaped or gone against protocol, she may not have been able to get in touch...
And do we know where they were posted,etc? Anywhere near were the towers and dead crows etc were happening? could the military already be aware of stuff, and were trying to harness it's power with the help of Simon and Lloyd etc.
Some havering your doing there bud:Dwe seen her leg blown off while her colleague was telling her dad what occured and never in a million years would a "dream " be used as a cliffhanger,and yes dramatic license being used when she turns up in the US not UK.
Maybe, but I interpreted that scene as highlighting to the viewer the contrast and conflict between what Willingham was telling Stark, and what actually happened - after all, Willingham states that he "watched Tracy die", where in actual fact he didn't appear to. You could be right though and it could well be just poor dialogue choices.
Does everyone think that Al was meant to be killed off so soon? I know that they are still filming as we speak, so can probably chop and change. For me, Al didnt seem to be the character to kill himself, and this Celia has only just happened this episode (although we saw a glimpse of the later part of his flashback in ep.6 I think).
It did seem rushed for me, but I still think its a great episode and a great series.
I reckon it could be thing to do with a sort of repeating time loop with each iteration changing a bit .... otherwise why would everyone be going about their normal business, seemingly unconcerned when the FF date came around?
But clearly there had also been a FF in that timeline since detective alco had that board up with all the clues.
Maybe what they do in the future causes the 'forward-date' of the FF to change so each iteration is going to be different to the last with people reacting differently because they got different FFs this time around.
A bit like a worldwide version of 'Groundhog Day'. Sooner or later the FBI team will get it right, getting a bit closer each time. Probably this is going to tell the story of the iteration where they finally get it right.
...I was rather confused about his vision because I'm sure I heard him say 'I killed him' and then he says something about Celia...so then I assumed it was him who killed Demetri...I guess not...It would have been nice to see them explain Al's FF properly or this Celia character
...anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, especially now, seeing Aaron's daughter who 'appears' to be alive and the aftermath of Al's death...xo
When he was stood on the edge of the building, I realised that actually I do care for these characters a bit more than I realised. Though I do still think Mark Benford is an utter dick.
I don't think those are the reasons that people have ditched it... I think it's more to do with the characterisation/acting/sub-plot writing.