I'm in favour of replacing the minimum wage with a living wage. The Treasury would spending substantially less on tax credits (one of the biggest areas of growth in welfare) and boost tax receipts. It'd also increase the spending power of poor working families to help drive economic consumption.
Some government control of wages is important but natural economic pressures are important, too. Cheap labour removes the pressure that British workers might place by saying a job is paying too little. Obviously there are other economic pressures to contend with, so we shouldn't expect all jobs would start paying significantly higher. It's also the case, of course, that British workers could undercut each other - especially in economic times like this. But when people say "Oh, we need immigrants because a Brit would never do that job for £x", it's a sign British workers rightly have higher expectations and are being undercut. Whatever the minimum or living wage is set at, it should always be just a floor - not a target.
Obviously in those conditions something has to give. They could pay higher wages but the price will go up. Maybe demand will fall and maybe we can't compete internationally. If those are the economic realities, is importing cheap labour a long-term reliable solution?
I think it depends on the industry. If it's an industry dependent on very cheap labour, do we really need it or benefit from it? If the jobs are going to East Europeans, is there a benefit for Britain in it being based here? The last few decades have shown some industries are just better being done elsewhere where they can be done cheaply.
The problem with the mass EU unskilled migration is that it's not specific to any one industry because it's not controlled. Maybe we need cheap labour to pick the apples or cockles, but did we need them to undercut British builders or joiners? Was there a shortage of British people willing to work in restaurants or shops? There was a flood of cheap labour not for any one industry but for all unskilled industries.
Not specific to an industry but it was linked to the labour market. I feel for the British workers who were pushed out of the market but perhaps it could be argued that small business enjoyed the benefit of this cheaper Labour which in turn kept them going.
From a personal point of view (I won't elaborate) home grown builders, plumbers, electricians were prohibitively expensive and a very effective barrier to enterprise.
With all the immigrants Labour let in + the ones since 2010,you must have so much magic and comedy in your life.
Your sides must be splitting
My life doesn't revolve around stereotypes or generalisations or obsessing over a single aspect of this country as if it were the only thing that mattered. So I find humour in many situations. And have better things to do than look for it (or a lack of it) in one single place day in day out.
Not sure about this one Dosanjh1. Doesn't one outweigh the other?
Not sure if growth attributed to immigration has ever been measured.
Labours continuous period of uninterrupted private sector growth was certainly partly fuelled by immigration. I guess its a question of how much we spend in the public sector (attributed to migration) v how much wealth is created (attributed to migration) - it would be intresting to see if any one can find some stats.
Not sure if growth attributed to immigration has ever been measured.
Labours continuous period of uninterrupted private sector growth was certainly partly fuelled by immigration. I guess its a question of how much we spend in the public sector (attributed to migration) v how much wealth is created (attributed to migration) - it would be intresting to see if any one can find some stats.
Thank you for this Dosanjh1. A good debatable point. Appreciated.
The NHS is loosing tens of millions due to health tourism.
The NHS has to budget millions of pounds each year on interpreters.
Social Housing is chronically over subscribed.
Schools are over subscribed right down to primary level with so many language barriers that the academic level is falling severley behind the equivalent age level.
The Border agency is at breaking point with a backlog decades long.
Large cities such as Leicester are becoming gheto-ised with no go areas due to lack of integration.
The UK population is increasing at the rate of a city the size of Birmingham each year.
The construction industry has been forced into a state of redundancy due to an outsourcing to Eastern European labour.
The Welfare budget has become such a concern it has been necessary to implement extreme policies such as the bedroom tax.
Employment markets are saturated by overwhelming sources of labour.
These are the facts that can be easily substantiated in the public domain. My views on immigration are neither here nor there. Politics aside though, if anyone can realistically and objectively point out the plus points of immigration, I would seriously like to know.
We have an ageing workforce, more people will be retiring than people leaving school. We are going to start experiencing some major skills shortages soon.
The biggest pressure the NHS can predictably have will be an increase in demand for older people, mostly baby boomers - this will all need to be resourced by both people and cash.
We have an ageing workforce, more people will be retiring than people leaving school. We are going to start experiencing some major skills shortages soon.
How does allowing every unskilled,poor,useless European mainland citizen access to the British workplace,health service and benefits fill the major skill shortage in Britian?
How does allowing every unskilled,poor,useless European mainland citizen access to the British workplace,health service and benefits fill the major skill shortage in Britian?
Er, because we let the skilled, wealthy, useful ones in as well, perhaps?
I can't see any benefit to the mass immigration we have had, a lot of the people that have entered the UK have been a drain and not a benefit to the country. When I was a child I lived in a town that had a lot of Pakistani immigrants, and I always assumed these immigrants would one day adopt British culture and blend in, although keeping their traditions holidays etc, now I can see the opposite is true, and they are live even more separate lives than before. This is sad and causes social divisions and tensions.
I am married to an immigrant, although he is highly skilled, has not took any British person's job, and has family roots here. He has also not been a drain on any of the country's resources as he has private health care and has never claimed benefits at any time. This is the kind of immigrant we need, not people who live parallel lives and come here to take not contribute.
I can't really complain about immigration because although I love living here I have to admit if I learned a few languages I would like to work in different European countries and experience a variety of cultures.
We have an ageing workforce, more people will be retiring than people leaving school. We are going to start experiencing some major skills shortages soon.
How does allowing every unskilled,poor,useless European mainland citizen access to the British workplace,health service and benefits fill the major skill shortage in Britian?
The theory is that as western populations are living longer, the average age of retired citizens is becoming so much greater that the number of younger members available is just not enough to support them. Hence a need to top up the younger adult population.
According to the propaganda this was actually a very real fear a few years ago.
Er, because we let the skilled, wealthy, useful ones in as well, perhaps?
Useful,skilled immigrants had a way into Britain,when Britain needed them through a controlled/monitored/qualification system before the EU open borders came into place.
So again,I ask, How does it benefit the British people allowing the poor/useless/unskilled europeans into Britain?
The theory is that as western populations are living longer, the average age of retired citizens is becoming so much greater that the number of younger members available is just not enough to support them. Hence a need to top up the younger adult population.
According to the propaganda this was actually a very real fear a few years ago.
How do minimum wage earning immigrants/migrants claiming tax credits etc and new immigrants/migrants claiming benefits help support the ageing British population?
Er, because we let the skilled, wealthy, useful ones in as well, perhaps?
Surely that just highlights the problem with EU migration: it casts too wide a net. Yes we catch some skilled wealthy workers, but our trawls are picking up far more unskilled workers.
Most skilled or wealthy workers will be coming from outside the EU and be jumping through hoops to get in here. Not so the unskilled labourer from Krakow.
people should be vetted before they come in properly. only valuable people eg doctors , lawyers should be allowed in. maybe their families to but at a later date and if they have something to contribute as well but not to the extent of the main applicant. have a limit to , only 1000 people a year. more people leave than come in so population would soon go down
I like how immigrants send a large proportion of their wages directly to their relatives in other countries, draining money straight out of the country. That's good for the economy, surely?
The money is not going back into the economy, thus not generating an upturn. Totally agree
The NHS is loosing tens of millions due to health tourism.
The NHS has to budget millions of pounds each year on interpreters.
Social Housing is chronically over subscribed.
Schools are over subscribed right down to primary level with so many language barriers that the academic level is falling severley behind the equivalent age level.
The Border agency is at breaking point with a backlog decades long.
Large cities such as Leicester are becoming gheto-ised with no go areas due to lack of integration.
The UK population is increasing at the rate of a city the size of Birmingham each year.
The construction industry has been forced into a state of redundancy due to an outsourcing to Eastern European labour.
The Welfare budget has become such a concern it has been necessary to implement extreme policies such as the bedroom tax.
Employment markets are saturated by overwhelming sources of labour.
These are the facts that can be easily substantiated in the public domain. My views on immigration are neither here nor there. Politics aside though, if anyone can realistically and objectively point out the plus points of immigration, I would seriously like to know.
Excellent post, in black and white and there are still people who would argue the point, even now:rolleyes: That immigration has been good for Great Britain. Because the government has made such a bo*^ocks of the immigration policy as it stands, they are bleeding the life out of the poor and vulnerable to make up the difference. Which to me is not only immoral but surely in some cases illegal. Especially when you hear about some of the extreme cases of disabled people being deemed fit for work. Yet still even today The Sun newspaper is running stories about benefit "scroungers" and how they live a life of luxury on benefits, seems nicely timed for the actual benefit cuts and the bedroom tax.
My sister got our mitochondrial DNA checked out. We are haplo group e which means on my mothers side I'm actually Indian. So immigration has been good to me too
This has become popular in recent years, how does immigration policy work for men who bring in Oriental brides, as I see quite a few white men with far Eastern partners around?
My sister got our mitochondrial DNA checked out. We are haplo group e which means on my mothers side I'm actually Indian. So immigration has been good to me too
Similarly, if you think immigration is the worst thing ever to happen to the UK, speak out and give your reasons why.
Depends if your coming or going, If your coming into the UK you will be thinking of all that lovely lolly & the social housing that's on offer, it wont be your concern if thousands have been on the housing list for years..after all your streets are paved with gold aren't they:)
Comments
Not specific to an industry but it was linked to the labour market. I feel for the British workers who were pushed out of the market but perhaps it could be argued that small business enjoyed the benefit of this cheaper Labour which in turn kept them going.
From a personal point of view (I won't elaborate) home grown builders, plumbers, electricians were prohibitively expensive and a very effective barrier to enterprise.
My life doesn't revolve around stereotypes or generalisations or obsessing over a single aspect of this country as if it were the only thing that mattered. So I find humour in many situations. And have better things to do than look for it (or a lack of it) in one single place day in day out.
Not sure if growth attributed to immigration has ever been measured.
Labours continuous period of uninterrupted private sector growth was certainly partly fuelled by immigration. I guess its a question of how much we spend in the public sector (attributed to migration) v how much wealth is created (attributed to migration) - it would be intresting to see if any one can find some stats.
Thank you for this Dosanjh1. A good debatable point. Appreciated.
So two plus points so far, with a third debatable one. Any advance please? We seem to have been sold the concept quite well over the years!
How does allowing every unskilled,poor,useless European mainland citizen access to the British workplace,health service and benefits fill the major skill shortage in Britian?
Er, because we let the skilled, wealthy, useful ones in as well, perhaps?
I am married to an immigrant, although he is highly skilled, has not took any British person's job, and has family roots here. He has also not been a drain on any of the country's resources as he has private health care and has never claimed benefits at any time. This is the kind of immigrant we need, not people who live parallel lives and come here to take not contribute.
The theory is that as western populations are living longer, the average age of retired citizens is becoming so much greater that the number of younger members available is just not enough to support them. Hence a need to top up the younger adult population.
According to the propaganda this was actually a very real fear a few years ago.
Useful,skilled immigrants had a way into Britain,when Britain needed them through a controlled/monitored/qualification system before the EU open borders came into place.
So again,I ask, How does it benefit the British people allowing the poor/useless/unskilled europeans into Britain?
How do minimum wage earning immigrants/migrants claiming tax credits etc and new immigrants/migrants claiming benefits help support the ageing British population?
Most skilled or wealthy workers will be coming from outside the EU and be jumping through hoops to get in here. Not so the unskilled labourer from Krakow.
It's not unreasonable that WE control who comes in.
Simples!
The money is not going back into the economy, thus not generating an upturn. Totally agree
Excellent post, in black and white and there are still people who would argue the point, even now:rolleyes: That immigration has been good for Great Britain. Because the government has made such a bo*^ocks of the immigration policy as it stands, they are bleeding the life out of the poor and vulnerable to make up the difference. Which to me is not only immoral but surely in some cases illegal. Especially when you hear about some of the extreme cases of disabled people being deemed fit for work. Yet still even today The Sun newspaper is running stories about benefit "scroungers" and how they live a life of luxury on benefits, seems nicely timed for the actual benefit cuts and the bedroom tax.
Exactly! We want quality not quantity, and we DO have a right to say who comes into our country.
Is she a Jedi?
Depends if your coming or going, If your coming into the UK you will be thinking of all that lovely lolly & the social housing that's on offer, it wont be your concern if thousands have been on the housing list for years..after all your streets are paved with gold aren't they:)