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Ban the burka, says Oxford-based imam

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2695181/Why-I-Muslim-launching-campaign-ban-burka-Britain.html

A great article from Dr Taj Hargey. It's good to hear a Muslim speak out against this oppressive piece of clothing, which as he rightly says, effectively imprisons women. I find it upsetting seeing women completely shrouded in black and, more often than not, walking three or four paces behind their husbands. It sends out a deeply depressing message that women are second-class citizens - and there's no place for it in the 21st century.
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    idlewildeidlewilde Posts: 8,698
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    I think people should be free to wear what they like.
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    jesayajesaya Posts: 35,597
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    Whilst I agree with his general points, I am always concerned that a ban could well mean some women don't go out at all - either by choice or forced to stay in by family pressure. Imams persuading their flocks that there is no requirement for this covering is, in my view, much better than criminalising it.
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    Rich_LRich_L Posts: 6,110
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    idlewilde wrote: »
    I think people should be free to wear what they like.

    Can I wear my all in one white outfit then that also covers my face?

    Has a bit of a pointy end, but I'll just tell them I'm a wizard or something.
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    TagletTaglet Posts: 20,286
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    Rich_L wrote: »
    Can I wear my all in one white outfit then that also covers my face?

    Has a bit of a pointy end, but I'll just tell them I'm a wizard or something.

    Surely it would be easier and cheaper to have a t shirt printed which just said "I am a racist"?
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    Raquelos.Raquelos. Posts: 7,734
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    Rich_L wrote: »
    Can I wear my all in one white outfit then that also covers my face?

    Has a bit of a pointy end, but I'll just tell them I'm a wizard or something.

    Yep, knock yourself out, good luck in Brixton though ;-)
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    DianaFireDianaFire Posts: 12,711
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    There's always something a bit two-centuries-ago about men telling women what to wear.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,129
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    idlewilde wrote: »
    I think people should be free to wear what they like.

    Do you mena they should be free to wear the burkha 'if they want' or Muslim women should be allowed to not wear a burkha if they want to...?
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    Rich_LRich_L Posts: 6,110
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    DianaFire wrote: »
    There's always something a bit two-centuries-ago about men telling women what to wear.

    Funnily enough there was a thread a few days back about ladies wearing those see through leggings things and half the (I presume) female posters were like 'how dare you tell us or suggest to us what we wear'
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    towerstowers Posts: 12,183
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    idlewilde wrote: »
    I think people should be free to wear what they like.

    Not when,

    A ) it's unnatural to cover your whole face because it's your way of communicating
    B ) it's unfriendly
    C ) it's sexist ( Muslim men don't wear it )
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    Pumping IronPumping Iron Posts: 29,891
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    idlewilde wrote: »
    I think people should be free to wear what they like.

    I agree. It's a shame so many women are expected by their men to dress this way.
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    idlewildeidlewilde Posts: 8,698
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    alfster wrote: »
    Do you mena they should be free to wear the burkha 'if they want' or Muslim women should be allowed to not wear a burkha if they want to...?

    Both, but a ban would remove the choice from those women who might wish to wear it for religious or cultural reasons. It's a fine balancing act, but maybe there could be some greater enforcement against women being forced to wear it. I don't have the answers really, but being banned from wearing particular garments is oppressive also in my opinion. There would need to be exceptions of course, when identification is required etc
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    towerstowers Posts: 12,183
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    Taglet wrote: »
    Surely it would be easier and cheaper to have a t shirt printed which just said "I am a racist"?

    Or - in my case, as a woman - I'm concerned about this daft thing my Muslim sisters have been taught is normal. Why don't Muslim men wear it or would that be insulting to them?

    God ( if you're religious ) or nature ( if you're an atheist ) gave you a face full of expressions to communicate with. Even a British Muslim lady who used to wear it realised that her friends couldn't see her smile.
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    sutiesutie Posts: 32,645
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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2695181/Why-I-Muslim-launching-campaign-ban-burka-Britain.html

    A great article from Dr Taj Hargey. It's good to hear a Muslim speak out against this oppressive piece of clothing, which as he rightly says, effectively imprisons women. I find it upsetting seeing women completely shrouded in black and, more often than not, walking three or four paces behind their husbands. It sends out a deeply depressing message that women are second-class citizens - and there's no place for it in the 21st century.




    Totally agree. To me, it's either worn as a political statement, or imposed by family members. I can't bring myself to believe that someone would don such a frankly stupid and unnecessary garment for any other reason.
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    anne_666anne_666 Posts: 72,891
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    jesaya wrote: »
    Whilst I agree with his general points, I am always concerned that a ban could well mean some women don't go out at all - either by choice or forced to stay in by family pressure. Imams persuading their flocks that there is no requirement for this covering is, in my view, much better than criminalising it.

    I agree. That many women aren't considered worthy of a choice within their religion/family has to be acknowledged.
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    sutiesutie Posts: 32,645
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    I agree. It's a shame so many women are expected by their men to dress this way.



    Only this morning (and believe it or not, it's hot here in Manchester this morning) I saw a woman trailing a few steps behind her husband/family member, fully covered. He, on the other hand, was dressed in jeans and a tee shirt.

    There's something just SO in your face not right about it. :(
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    Pumping IronPumping Iron Posts: 29,891
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    sutie wrote: »
    Only this morning (and believe it or not, it's hot here in Manchester this morning) I saw a woman trailing a few steps behind her husband/family member, fully covered. He, on the other hand, was dressed in jeans and a tee shirt.

    There's something just SO in your face not right about it. :(

    I agree.
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    biggle2000biggle2000 Posts: 3,588
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    idlewilde wrote: »
    I think people should be free to wear what they like.

    Yeah including wearing a crash helmet when visiting the local bank. That would go down a treat.
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    idlewildeidlewilde Posts: 8,698
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    towers wrote: »
    Not when,

    A ) it's unnatural to cover your whole face because it's your way of communicating
    B ) it's unfriendly
    C ) it's sexist ( Muslim men don't wear it )

    How often have you engaged in conversation with a veiled Muslim woman? I have many times and I was able to communicate quite easily and have never found the process "unfriendly"

    There are many items of clothing and adornments that might be considered unnatural depending on which culture you view them from. I see people walking around with metal piercings all over their face and tattoos down their necks, the Maori people of New Zealand tattoo their faces completely in the tradition of their warrior ancestors. Horses for courses.
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    idlewildeidlewilde Posts: 8,698
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    biggle2000 wrote: »
    Yeah including wearing a crash helmet when visiting the local bank. That would go down a treat.

    There is a practical reason why it is undesirable to wear a crash helmet whilst in the bank. It isn't because the bank simply doesn't like it.
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    stoatiestoatie Posts: 78,106
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    DianaFire wrote: »
    There's always something a bit two-centuries-ago about men telling women what to wear.

    Yeah, I'm not sure the most liberating solution to women being told they have to wear a thing by men is to have men tell them they're not allowed to wear it.

    Me? I don't like the burkha, I'd be happy to see nobody at all wearing it. But I also don't agree with banning it, except in places where security's an issue. A man who oppresses his wife to the degree that he makes her wear one isn't suddenly going to stop being oppressive just because he can't do it anymore. In cases where women are forced to wear them, the garment itself's a symptom, not a cause.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,129
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    idlewilde wrote: »
    ...maybe there could be some greater enforcement against women being forced to wear it. I don't have the answers really, but being banned from wearing particular garments is oppressive also in my opinion. There would need to be exceptions of course, when identification is required etc

    I sort of agree with you - the problem is that the wearing of the burhka is so ingrained that even women force other women to wear them. Religious dogma is a strong force and it would be very easy to ostracise women from communities who decide not to wear burkhas.
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    DangerBrotherDangerBrother Posts: 1,623
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    The best thing about bhurkas was when the One Show had a lady in a Bhurkas on and some old English actor was trying to charm her, and said she had the most beautiful eyes (she seems extremely offended)
    If anyone knows the clip please link it, I can't remember the actors name
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    KapellmeisterKapellmeister Posts: 41,322
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    jesaya wrote: »
    Whilst I agree with his general points, I am always concerned that a ban could well mean some women don't go out at all - either by choice or forced to stay in by family pressure. Imams persuading their flocks that there is no requirement for this covering is, in my view, much better than criminalising it.

    In that case they're always free to move to a country more in line with their cultural needs.
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    towerstowers Posts: 12,183
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    idlewilde wrote: »
    How often have you engaged in conversation with a veiled Muslim woman? I have many times and I was able to communicate quite easily and have never found the process "unfriendly"

    There are many items of clothing and adornments that might be considered unnatural depending on which culture you view them from. I see people walking around with metal piercings all over their face and tattoos down their necks, the Maori people of New Zealand tattoo their faces completely in the tradition of their warrior ancestors. Horses for courses.

    A British Muslim who used to wear the Burka at college realised one day that her friends couldn't see her smiling, she's never worn it since and supports a ban.

    If Burkas are so great, why don't the men wear them?
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    KapellmeisterKapellmeister Posts: 41,322
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    idlewilde wrote: »
    How often have you engaged in conversation with a veiled Muslim woman? I have many times and I was able to communicate quite easily and have never found the process "unfriendly"

    There are many items of clothing and adornments that might be considered unnatural depending on which culture you view them from. I see people walking around with metal piercings all over their face and tattoos down their necks, the Maori people of New Zealand tattoo their faces completely in the tradition of their warrior ancestors. Horses for courses.

    Indeed. Go to New Zealand and it's part of the Maori tradition. Come to the UK and wearing the burkha is not part of our tradition. When in Rome, etc. etc. etc. As I said, if they don't like it then please leave and go elsewhere.
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