Post-explosion 'residues' will cover a large % of the plane, passengers and luggage/cargo etc, so if the skills of forensic scientists mirror those of 'Silent Witness' , then no amount of tampering with the wreckage will hide the truth. With the bodies now in safe hands, then the cause of the crash should be identified but not necessarily, the perpetrators?.
That is good to know. It will be interesting to see whether it was a ground or air missile (or other type of explosive).
I just watched the BBC headlines on TV and they briefly mentioned something about the wreckage being different to the last time the investigators saw it.
The significance of this is currently unclear. Maybe some needed to be moved/cut to get to bodies etc. Who has altered the wreckage?
As usual, I am keeping an open mind and waiting for facts rather than jumping to conclusions.
It has not been confirmed that evidence was tampered with by Russians to hide their involvement - so it would be wrong to assume this is the case at this point in time.
Removed and replaced is what the investigators are saying. There could be an innocent explanation though, we shall have to wait and see.
Ukrainian spy chief saying ONLY a Russian officer could have pressed the button on the BUK....surely this is just a blatant lie as Ukraine has had BUK for decades & must have hundreds if not thousands of soldiers who know how to operate it & some of those will be Russian speakers ?
So for it to be true you have to be shown a photo? Is Bin Laden dead then? I mean you haven't seen photographic evidence so he must still be alive? That's your logic applied to this scenario. They don't have to convince you and Obama has access to the best, relevant and most current classified intelligence reports. You don't.
You forget pictures were released after OBL's shooting. You also appear to have forgotten this-
where the best, relevant and most current intelligence was used to justify actions. You see claims that the US has satellite pics showing the missile's smoke trail and shows it came from a rebel area. So watch this video-
what is wrong with that picture? There are claims that the weekend before, a convoy of 150 vehicles including tanks, rocket launchers etc crossed the border from Russia. Big convoy, surely someone else must have spotted it?
As the saying goes though, pics or it didn't happen.
You said it was oligarchs funding this, so who are they then?
It seems the tank was driving through Krasnoarmeisk according to the address on the car dealership billboard in the video.
Ukrainians updated that earlier in the week. The Buk wasn't filmed in Krasnoarmeisk but somewhere much further away from the Russian border. Which kind of knocks the running Buk idea on the head.
Ukrainian spy chief saying ONLY a Russian officer could have pressed the button on the BUK....surely this is just a blatant lie as Ukraine has had BUK for decades & must have hundreds if not thousands of soldiers who know how to operate it & some of those will be Russian speakers ?
But this link below is also worth a read (have posted it before);
These missile launchers are specially created for hitting high-altitude aircraft, and can fire at targets of up to 80,000 feet.
But unless linked to other weapons or an air traffic control system, they are almost incapable of telling the difference between military and civilian aircraft. The Buk is mobile, easy to use, and capable of hitting aircraft at all but the most outlandish altitudes. Yet as the MH17 disaster proves, that comes with a huge potential drawback, especially when the weapon is in the hands of people incapable of using it responsibly.
Ukrainian spy chief saying ONLY a Russian officer could have pressed the button on the BUK....surely this is just a blatant lie as Ukraine has had BUK for decades & must have hundreds if not thousands of soldiers who know how to operate it & some of those will be Russian speakers ?
Video of one of the alleged rebel Buks, no 312. Can any Russian speakers translate the voices here? Curious about who/what/where/when. The video and stills taken from it would suggest it wasn't involved in last week's events as the people in it aren't exactly dressed for mid-summer. But it's on a civilian hauler like the prime suspect.
First off I have little doubt (or would harbour little surprise) this is the work of the separatists
But this whole thing looking in from the outside is just an utter mess. I have serious doubts about the path the Western leaders are taking us down, it’s all very well talking tough on TV but I see them backing Putin into a corner. At the moment he’s in an impossible position; sell out the ethnic Russians or face sanctions……the West has to offer some form of route out for him. One of the brilliant things about Kennedy was that he realised you can’t just back someone into a corner and expect them to acquiesce into your demands, a cornered animal will lash out to save itself…see the Cuban missile crisis (Kennedy negotiated in private with the Russians they wouldn’t put nuclear missiles in Turkey and as a result the Russians pulled out of Cuba)
Russia is highly unlikely to sell out its ethnic neighbours, so there has to be some appeasement somewhere in the process, however unpalatable that seems right now with recent events. Putting aside MH17, in Russia’s eyes they’ve seen a coup tear the Ukraine apart and it would be no surprise to find it was/is backed with Western money. The end game for the US (and by extension the Western powers falling in behind) is to perhaps have some sort of presence deployed in the Ukraine, I bet the US wouldn’t feel happy if their border with Mexico was suddenly covered with non-friendly troops.
It’s frustrating the way this whole thing (the Ukraine crisis) is being reported, it’s like the West are completely white than white in all their previous endeavours. There are many of us no doubt who completely condemn the awful actions of the separatists but are angered at the one sided sanctimonious talk coming from the West. Russia could screw the West if it wanted to, they hold a lot of Europe over a barrel with energy, and they have large investments in the financial markets. For all the tough talk in public, I bet in private the tone is a lot more open minded to position Putin has been put in by this, European leaders won’t want their energy prices to rise, or the financial markets to lose investors. Expect to hear some tough sounding economic sanctions against Russia in the press but in the back channels some form of policy appeasement is probably going ahead.
As I’m not just blindly hating on Putin I expect many posters will accuse me of being sympathetic, no I’m far from that, I just see the overall picture being a lot more mixed and even sided than the press is reporting.
I am totally and utterly disgusted with this whole matter, all the world is doing is talking about talking about pointing fingers.
I know people (as i am sure we all do) who if someone broke into their house and they knew they had done it would go round there and "ahem" get it sorted.
It seems in the world the only people who are worse than the murderers who did this are the people who are letting them get away with it.
"ooh we don't want to do anything because Russia might stop our gas"
"we are very very angry, but erm we wont do anything, because we don't want to upset the Russians"
So these thugs now have the world by the b***s
Never thought i would say it but come back Reagan, Thatcher and Bush.
Because somebody needs to kick arse.
where the best, relevant and most current intelligence was used to justify actions. You see claims that the US has satellite pics showing the missile's smoke trail and shows it came from a rebel area. So watch this video-
what is wrong with that picture? There are claims that the weekend before, a convoy of 150 vehicles including tanks, rocket launchers etc crossed the border from Russia. Big convoy, surely someone else must have spotted it?
As the saying goes though, pics or it didn't happen.
Conspiracy theorists can have as many pictures as they like from multiple angles and they still come up with ridiculous explanations, the 9/11 truthers show this. So no pictures or it didn't happen isn't some set in stone axiom. I've never seen Bin Laden's corpse but I will accept that he is dead.
"We know because we observed it by imagery that at the moment of the shootdown we detected a launch from that area," he said. "Our trajectory shows that it went to the aircraft.
"We also know to a certainty that social media immediately afterwards saw reports of separatists bragging about knocking down a plane and then the so-called defence minister of Donetsk, Igor Strelkov, posted a report bragging about the shoot-down of a transport plane."
The case against the separatists was further backed by evidence from voice intercepts and a video of a launcher moving back into Russia with at least one missing missile, said Kerry.
You will have to accept that they have seen and know far, far more than you watching CNN.
How are these oligarchs managing to bypass Putin and Moscow and make the Russian army supply the rebels? Sounds like another implausible conspiracy theory that falls apart when examined.
I am totally and utterly disgusted with this whole matter, all the world is doing is talking about talking about pointing fingers.
I know people (as i am sure we all do) who if someone broke into their house and they knew they had done it would go round there and "ahem" get it sorted.
It seems in the world the only people who are worse than the murderers who did this are the people who are letting them get away with it.
"ooh we don't want to do anything because Russia might stop our gas"
"we are very very angry, but erm we wont do anything, because we don't want to upset the Russians"
So these thugs now have the world by the b***s
Never thought i would say it but come back Reagan, Thatcher and Bush.
Because somebody needs to kick arse.
So what would you do to defuse the situation and still get justice?
You will have to accept that they have seen and know far, far more than you watching CNN.
I don't watch CNN..
How are these oligarchs managing to bypass Putin and Moscow and make the Russian army supply the rebels? Sounds like another implausible conspiracy theory that falls apart when examined.
Well, perhaps you should examine things more closely then. Why sanction those people and companies. Officially, they have been sanctioned for funding the various groups in Ukraine. You asked who was funding them. You've still provided no evidence that the Russian Army is supplying the rebels.
PS.. did you look at the video? So the smoke trail caught on satellite. What was the weather like?
Video of one of the alleged rebel Buks, no 312. Can any Russian speakers translate the voices here? Curious about who/what/where/when. The video and stills taken from it would suggest it wasn't involved in last week's events as the people in it aren't exactly dressed for mid-summer. But it's on a civilian hauler like the prime suspect.
First off I have little doubt (or would harbour little surprise) this is the work of the separatists
But this whole thing looking in from the outside is just an utter mess. I have serious doubts about the path the Western leaders are taking us down, it’s all very well talking tough on TV but I see them backing Putin into a corner. At the moment he’s in an impossible position; sell out the ethnic Russians or face sanctions……the West has to offer some form of route out for him. One of the brilliant things about Kennedy was that he realised you can’t just back someone into a corner and expect them to acquiesce into your demands, a cornered animal will lash out to save itself…see the Cuban missile crisis (Kennedy negotiated in private with the Russians they wouldn’t put nuclear missiles in Turkey and as a result the Russians pulled out of Cuba)
Russia is highly unlikely to sell out its ethnic neighbours, so there has to be some appeasement somewhere in the process, however unpalatable that seems right now with recent events. Putting aside MH17, in Russia’s eyes they’ve seen a coup tear the Ukraine apart and it would be no surprise to find it was/is backed with Western money. The end game for the US (and by extension the Western powers falling in behind) is to perhaps have some sort of presence deployed in the Ukraine, I bet the US wouldn’t feel happy if their border with Mexico was suddenly covered with non-friendly troops.
It’s frustrating the way this whole thing (the Ukraine crisis) is being reported, it’s like the West are completely white than white in all their previous endeavours. There are many of us no doubt who completely condemn the awful actions of the separatists but are angered at the one sided sanctimonious talk coming from the West. Russia could screw the West if it wanted to, they hold a lot of Europe over a barrel with energy, and they have large investments in the financial markets. For all the tough talk in public, I bet in private the tone is a lot more open minded to position Putin has been put in by this, European leaders won’t want their energy prices to rise, or the financial markets to lose investors. Expect to hear some tough sounding economic sanctions against Russia in the press but in the back channels some form of policy appeasement is probably going ahead.
As I’m not just blindly hating on Putin I expect many posters will accuse me of being sympathetic, no I’m far from that, I just see the overall picture being a lot more mixed and even sided than the press is reporting.
Russia has already carried out the annexation of Crimea, why should the rest of the world kowtow to Putin and Russia when the drunken rebels he finances are blowing passengers out of the sky? If you don't hammer him for this then what can't he do?
Russia has already carried out the annexation of Crimea, why should the rest of the world kowtow to Putin and Russia when the drunken rebels he finances are blowing passengers out of the sky? If you don't hammer him for this then what can't he do?
I'm not disagreeing with you on the bad things the Russian's have done...
What I'm saying is it's no good simply saying 'we demand justice' or something as simplistic as that, especially considering the West has no moral high ground and badly needs Russian co-operation on issues such as Iran and Syria.
Can you not see how it's a virtually an impossible line to tread???!
First off I have little doubt (or would harbour little surprise) this is the work of the separatists
But this whole thing looking in from the outside is just an utter mess. I have serious doubts about the path the Western leaders are taking us down, it’s all very well talking tough on TV but I see them backing Putin into a corner. At the moment he’s in an impossible position; sell out the ethnic Russians or face sanctions……the West has to offer some form of route out for him. One of the brilliant things about Kennedy was that he realised you can’t just back someone into a corner and expect them to acquiesce into your demands, a cornered animal will lash out to save itself…see the Cuban missile crisis (Kennedy negotiated in private with the Russians they wouldn’t put nuclear missiles in Turkey and as a result the Russians pulled out of Cuba)
Russia is highly unlikely to sell out its ethnic neighbours, so there has to be some appeasement somewhere in the process, however unpalatable that seems right now with recent events. Putting aside MH17, in Russia’s eyes they’ve seen a coup tear the Ukraine apart and it would be no surprise to find it was/is backed with Western money. The end game for the US (and by extension the Western powers falling in behind) is to perhaps have some sort of presence deployed in the Ukraine, I bet the US wouldn’t feel happy if their border with Mexico was suddenly covered with non-friendly troops.
It’s frustrating the way this whole thing (the Ukraine crisis) is being reported, it’s like the West are completely white than white in all their previous endeavours. There are many of us no doubt who completely condemn the awful actions of the separatists but are angered at the one sided sanctimonious talk coming from the West. Russia could screw the West if it wanted to, they hold a lot of Europe over a barrel with energy, and they have large investments in the financial markets. For all the tough talk in public, I bet in private the tone is a lot more open minded to position Putin has been put in by this, European leaders won’t want their energy prices to rise, or the financial markets to lose investors. Expect to hear some tough sounding economic sanctions against Russia in the press but in the back channels some form of policy appeasement is probably going ahead.
As I’m not just blindly hating on Putin I expect many posters will accuse me of being sympathetic, no I’m far from that, I just see the overall picture being a lot more mixed and even sided than the press is reporting.
Excellent post.
Thinking 'out of the box' more and looking at the bigger picture is what's lacking.....not just on GD either!
Well, perhaps you should examine things more closely then. Why sanction those people and companies. Officially, they have been sanctioned for funding the various groups in Ukraine. You asked who was funding them. You've still provided no evidence that the Russian Army is supplying the rebels.
PS.. did you look at the video? So the smoke trail caught on satellite. What was the weather like?
It's another conspiracy theory with nothing to back it up other than a wikipedia link. As for the missile launch the US has satellite technology built using infrared to detect ballistic launches so what the weather has to do with it I don't know? The US spends quite a bit of money on the DOD, they will know a lot more about the situation than you.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the bad things the Russian's have done...
What I'm saying is it's no good simply saying 'we demand justice' or something as simplistic as that, especially considering the West has no moral high ground and badly needs Russian co-operation on issues such as Iran and Syria.
Can you not see how it's a virtually an impossible line to tread???!
It's no good simply saying let Russia do what it wants. When do you take action, when the rebels blow up another plane? Or 5 or 10? What's the magic number where you act? It's gutless appeasement that has got us into this situation.
It's no good simply saying let Russia do what it wants. When do you take action, when the rebels blow up another plane? Or 5 or 10? What's the magic number where you act? It's gutless appeasement that has got us into this situation.
Nobody has said let Russia do what it wants....don't go putting words in my (or other people's) mouth.
You keep ignoring the question.....What would you do to rectify this???
Ok so you want to punish Russia, what are you going to do???
A military campaign? (ie ground intervention into eastern Ukraine)
Airstrikes?
Economic sanctions?
Putin put in front of the Hague
It's no good simply saying let Russia do what it wants. When do you take action, when the rebels blow up another plane? Or 5 or 10? What's the magic number where you act? It's gutless appeasement that has got us into this situation.
Comments
That is good to know. It will be interesting to see whether it was a ground or air missile (or other type of explosive).
Start digging those bunkers folks!
You won't cope with life.
Whereas the quality of food left in Morrisons post-apocalypse will be indistinguishable from that before the missiles hit!
Removed and replaced is what the investigators are saying. There could be an innocent explanation though, we shall have to wait and see.
You forget pictures were released after OBL's shooting. You also appear to have forgotten this-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodgy_Dossier
where the best, relevant and most current intelligence was used to justify actions. You see claims that the US has satellite pics showing the missile's smoke trail and shows it came from a rebel area. So watch this video-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyxIiW9m2mM
what is wrong with that picture? There are claims that the weekend before, a convoy of 150 vehicles including tanks, rocket launchers etc crossed the border from Russia. Big convoy, surely someone else must have spotted it?
As the saying goes though, pics or it didn't happen.
There's a list here-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individuals_sanctioned_during_the_2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine
Ukrainians updated that earlier in the week. The Buk wasn't filmed in Krasnoarmeisk but somewhere much further away from the Russian border. Which kind of knocks the running Buk idea on the head.
But this link below is also worth a read (have posted it before);
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-flaw-in-the-buk-missile-system-2014-7
Speaking of Russian speakers-
http://cs6-4v4.vk.me/p22/ae1a06ff5d7a.360.mp4?extra=vs6D-ItlXH5RKHc6IR0YAiY0XE4KUarRpe33480pw19tq4JBaaP4Du2jR6bEPwXNUCYgEiRjGvWrBPtd1r9fY47Sy3wgOmZt
Video of one of the alleged rebel Buks, no 312. Can any Russian speakers translate the voices here? Curious about who/what/where/when. The video and stills taken from it would suggest it wasn't involved in last week's events as the people in it aren't exactly dressed for mid-summer. But it's on a civilian hauler like the prime suspect.
But this whole thing looking in from the outside is just an utter mess. I have serious doubts about the path the Western leaders are taking us down, it’s all very well talking tough on TV but I see them backing Putin into a corner. At the moment he’s in an impossible position; sell out the ethnic Russians or face sanctions……the West has to offer some form of route out for him. One of the brilliant things about Kennedy was that he realised you can’t just back someone into a corner and expect them to acquiesce into your demands, a cornered animal will lash out to save itself…see the Cuban missile crisis (Kennedy negotiated in private with the Russians they wouldn’t put nuclear missiles in Turkey and as a result the Russians pulled out of Cuba)
Russia is highly unlikely to sell out its ethnic neighbours, so there has to be some appeasement somewhere in the process, however unpalatable that seems right now with recent events. Putting aside MH17, in Russia’s eyes they’ve seen a coup tear the Ukraine apart and it would be no surprise to find it was/is backed with Western money. The end game for the US (and by extension the Western powers falling in behind) is to perhaps have some sort of presence deployed in the Ukraine, I bet the US wouldn’t feel happy if their border with Mexico was suddenly covered with non-friendly troops.
It’s frustrating the way this whole thing (the Ukraine crisis) is being reported, it’s like the West are completely white than white in all their previous endeavours. There are many of us no doubt who completely condemn the awful actions of the separatists but are angered at the one sided sanctimonious talk coming from the West. Russia could screw the West if it wanted to, they hold a lot of Europe over a barrel with energy, and they have large investments in the financial markets. For all the tough talk in public, I bet in private the tone is a lot more open minded to position Putin has been put in by this, European leaders won’t want their energy prices to rise, or the financial markets to lose investors. Expect to hear some tough sounding economic sanctions against Russia in the press but in the back channels some form of policy appeasement is probably going ahead.
As I’m not just blindly hating on Putin I expect many posters will accuse me of being sympathetic, no I’m far from that, I just see the overall picture being a lot more mixed and even sided than the press is reporting.
I know people (as i am sure we all do) who if someone broke into their house and they knew they had done it would go round there and "ahem" get it sorted.
It seems in the world the only people who are worse than the murderers who did this are the people who are letting them get away with it.
"ooh we don't want to do anything because Russia might stop our gas"
"we are very very angry, but erm we wont do anything, because we don't want to upset the Russians"
So these thugs now have the world by the b***s
Never thought i would say it but come back Reagan, Thatcher and Bush.
Because somebody needs to kick arse.
You have seen him dead? Show me the pictures.
Conspiracy theorists can have as many pictures as they like from multiple angles and they still come up with ridiculous explanations, the 9/11 truthers show this. So no pictures or it didn't happen isn't some set in stone axiom. I've never seen Bin Laden's corpse but I will accept that he is dead.
You will have to accept that they have seen and know far, far more than you watching CNN.
How are these oligarchs managing to bypass Putin and Moscow and make the Russian army supply the rebels? Sounds like another implausible conspiracy theory that falls apart when examined.
Buk TELAR has IFF. See vid from AJ-
http://live.aljazeera.com/Event/Ukraine_liveblog/122162529
(turn speakers down first)
at 49s I think you can see the IFF scope trace. Raw (ie without fancy processing to turn it into something like a lable) it looks like this-
http://www.radartutorial.eu/13.ssr/sr07.en.html
So what would you do to defuse the situation and still get justice?
I don't watch CNN..
Well, perhaps you should examine things more closely then. Why sanction those people and companies. Officially, they have been sanctioned for funding the various groups in Ukraine. You asked who was funding them. You've still provided no evidence that the Russian Army is supplying the rebels.
PS.. did you look at the video? So the smoke trail caught on satellite. What was the weather like?
He's a very nice guy and regular poster on DS.
Russia has already carried out the annexation of Crimea, why should the rest of the world kowtow to Putin and Russia when the drunken rebels he finances are blowing passengers out of the sky? If you don't hammer him for this then what can't he do?
I'm not disagreeing with you on the bad things the Russian's have done...
What I'm saying is it's no good simply saying 'we demand justice' or something as simplistic as that, especially considering the West has no moral high ground and badly needs Russian co-operation on issues such as Iran and Syria.
Can you not see how it's a virtually an impossible line to tread???!
Thinking 'out of the box' more and looking at the bigger picture is what's lacking.....not just on GD either!
You just linked me to a CNN clip.
It's another conspiracy theory with nothing to back it up other than a wikipedia link. As for the missile launch the US has satellite technology built using infrared to detect ballistic launches so what the weather has to do with it I don't know? The US spends quite a bit of money on the DOD, they will know a lot more about the situation than you.
It's no good simply saying let Russia do what it wants. When do you take action, when the rebels blow up another plane? Or 5 or 10? What's the magic number where you act? It's gutless appeasement that has got us into this situation.
Nobody has said let Russia do what it wants....don't go putting words in my (or other people's) mouth.
You keep ignoring the question.....What would you do to rectify this???
Ok so you want to punish Russia, what are you going to do???
A military campaign? (ie ground intervention into eastern Ukraine)
Airstrikes?
Economic sanctions?
Putin put in front of the Hague
So what do you suggest?