Nobody can deny the complete balls up of a launch from Microsoft and the short-sightedness of trying to implement those policies on their consoles, knowing full well they'd p*** a lot of their current customers/fans off.
BIB - I'm not sure they did realise.
I think they got so stove-piped in their thinking that no one thought about or even considered the real world implications of the ideas/policies they announced. If MS had asked anyone outside of the One's development team what they thought of the direction the console was heading in, I'm sure they would have realised that they were way of course with the consumer. The sorry truth is it would never have occured to them to ask.
It's that classic corporate/executive problem of being convinced you are the smartest guys in the world. Then of course they compounded the problem by reacting badly to the negativity. The "go buy a 360 if you don't like the One" response was as dumb and hostile a response as you could imagine short of "we don't need you're sort of gamer anyway, go f**k yourselves!".
Its good to see they have made changes, but its certainly not because they have listened to the fans - or rather its because they have listened to the fans saying "I'm not going to buy the One" and have reacted to that.
I hope all the defenders of the Xbox 1 reveal are feeling a little silly at the moment, they went on and on about how we should trust Microsoft and their vision yet thankfully MS listen to all the critics of the system rather than the people who believed everything MS feed them and defended all the systems poor policies.
If only more people had been critical about Sonys pay to play online policy :mad:
I hope all the defenders of the Xbox 1 reveal are feeling a little silly at the moment, they went on and on about how we should trust Microsoft and their vision yet thankfully MS listen to all the critics of the system rather than the people who believed everything MS feed them and defended all the systems poor policies.
If only more people had been critical about Sonys pay to play online policy
I suppose that's somewhat directed at me also. You might hope I feel silly but I don't. I was one of the few people who didn't spontaneously reach for my pitchfork and follow the angry mob as I could see both sides of the argument at launch and I loved what I saw of the games at E3. For the record I never liked the mandatory Kinect and 24hr check in and I made that perfectly clear. I was so relieved when they scrapped those. The things like preowned games I was fine about, I was far from the only one too.
I obviously copped a lot of flak from members here back then but I never asked people to trust Microsoft, I only ever tried to help people see both sides of the argument and there were undeniable benefits to their original plan. You were never forced to buy the machine and I felt having such different consoles this time around wasn't maybe such a bad idea. Interesting to note that most of Microsoft's biggest detractors here still aren't buying an X1 despite the drastic policy changes.
This way is undoubtedly better though, no-one thought MS would change their policies in such a drastic way but it certainly wasn't down to "the haters" since they carried on ripping into MS for doing "180's", something that's contradictory in itself. They sure like to take the credit for it though.
I suppose that's somewhat directed at me also. You might hope I feel silly but I don't. I was one of the few people who didn't spontaneously reach for my pitchfork and follow the angry mob as I could see both sides of the argument at launch and I loved what I saw of the games at E3. For the record I never liked the mandatory Kinect and 24hr check in and I made that perfectly clear. I was so relieved when they scrapped those. The things like preowned games I was fine about, I was far from the only one too.
I obviously copped a lot of flak from members here back then but I never asked people to trust Microsoft, I only ever tried to help people see both sides of the argument and there were undeniable benefits to their original plan. You were never forced to buy the machine and I felt having such different consoles this time around wasn't maybe such a bad idea. Interesting to note that most of Microsoft's biggest detractors here still aren't buying an X1 despite the drastic policy changes.
This way is undoubtedly better though, no-one thought MS would change their policies in such a wasn't down todrastic way but it certainly "the haters" since they carried on ripping into MS for doing "180's", something that's contradictory in itself. They sure like to take the credit for it though.
Indeed.
It's because of the 180's that I'm getting an X1. MS tried to move to run before they could walk. The biggest gamer demographic is the 25-40's and we had a good run where most things were the same from system to system. MS tried to pull the plug on most of what we know. They met resistance. Instead of closing their eyes and plugging their fingers in their ears they changed some things to make their machine more palatable.
Now, with Watch Dogs and Drive Club delayed, I'm glad I went for both as the X1 looks a better choice at least at launch (boldened to avoid being attacked )
A recent article from Edge takes a look at the Xbox One's journey from reveal to launch and the steps that needed to be taken to put the console into the position it's in today.
Some highlights:
It's an interesting read and pretty amazing how Microsoft have managed to turn things around from E3, not least when taking into consideration Edge's previous scathing articles. While some people's perceptions of Microsoft and the machine itself undoubtedly won't change, those that were in two minds about it including a good number of previous Xbox fans who were put off by the initial policies have no doubt been swayed. Now Microsoft need to keep pushing forward and proving themselves through the generation, not just at launch.
Will be interesting to read other people's opinions on this.
I dont think it was ever a case of MS not being a contender even after their epic screw ups and policy u turns.
The Xbox brand is huge and would take a lot more than this to kill it off.
If we keep it all in perspective, PS3 was released as an expensive piece of equipment which whilst being able to go on-line rarey could connect initially with the PS store being awful not to mention the constant updates and patches that take forever to upload!.
Next they got hacked lost peoples credit card details and had to take out insurance to cover anyone who could be subject to fraud.
Despite all of this and much more overe a much longer period they have re-emerged as strong front runners in the "next gen war"
My personal belief is that if MS bring back the "family sharing" and other features now/near future then the general public/hard core gamers would be much more open to this over which was original/ill timed / possible arragant message of "this is what it is so like it or lump it as you will buy it anyway"
I dont think it matters which console is more powerful that the other as game makers who create games for both consoles will make a game to run firstly on which ever console is easiest first then spend the time to make it work on the other.
Originally the easy console was the Xbox with the PS3 being the after thought but this time PS4 is allegedly the easy console to develop for (this is a huge point of contention and will only be settled in a few years when the games start appearing)
In some ways yes as you were a strong defender of the MS reveal. But TBH compared to some of the (And I dont really like using this word) fanboys I debated with at the time you were quite mild. If MS had listened to the people blindly defending the console out of brand loyalty it would not be in the position it is today. MS has had a pretty decent recovery since E3 and dropping the always on policy.
At least you are willing to post a thread like this knowing you are going to get some stick for it. I know some other people who would just ignore this and have in the past tried to say that all the people that forced MS to change ruined the Xbox 1 and the great vision they had.
MS had a mixed bag of ideas at their reveal, some interesting, some really bad and some pretty good. Sadly most of that got thrown out the window but I hope over time they can find some consumer friendly ways to return to some of those interesting ideas. Family share (assuming it worked how we assumed) and the lending of digital games was a nice idea I would like to see worked on as digital gaming expands.
I suppose that's somewhat directed at me also. You might hope I feel silly but I don't. I was one of the few people who didn't spontaneously reach for my pitchfork and follow the angry mob as I could see both sides of the argument at launch and I loved what I saw of the games at E3. For the record I never liked the mandatory Kinect and 24hr check in and I made that perfectly clear. I was so relieved when they scrapped those. The things like preowned games I was fine about, I was far from the only one too.
I obviously copped a lot of flak from members here back then but I never asked people to trust Microsoft, I only ever tried to help people see both sides of the argument and there were undeniable benefits to their original plan. You were never forced to buy the machine and I felt having such different consoles this time around wasn't maybe such a bad idea. Interesting to note that most of Microsoft's biggest detractors here still aren't buying an X1 despite the drastic policy changes.
This way is undoubtedly better though, no-one thought MS would change their policies in such a drastic way but it certainly wasn't down to "the haters" since they carried on ripping into MS for doing "180's", something that's contradictory in itself. They sure like to take the credit for it though.
Your not the only one who tried to be a voice of reason during the "rage storm of hate" against MS.
I think one of the main problems was the used game policy change which in fairness was partly "suggested" by developers who dont see any of that residual cash come their way (unfair situation but this is a different issue all together)
I would love for the family sharing to come back as well as possibly a new version of a way to "sell on" your digital game on a market place where the original dev gets a cut of the sale.
I dont think it helped but can totally see why they did it but their initial reveal was so very American content (yes I know it was announced in USA) but would mean little to nothing to anyone outside of USA. (Deals with American tv shows/channels/sports etc)
Please keep in mind that almost every core gamer across the planet was glued to this reveal which made it appear as if MS could not care less about you unless you were American.
Then came the Europe expos where they had their chance to rectify things and instead rehashed what was said previoulsy...which went down as well as you could expect....then the 180's started flooding in.
MS has given all the haters more than enough ammo to fire at them but in fairness to MS they are trying to do everything possible to fix that situation and let the console stand on its own and apart from all this self inflicted damage.
For the record I am getting both at launch and feel equally excited to see what both can do. (not so much for Kinect through!)
I think one of the main problems was the used game policy change which in fairness was partly "suggested" by developers who dont see any of that residual cash come their way (unfair situation but this is a different issue all together)
I can't recall MS ever going into detail on this besides that you can still trade in games. Was just one of their mistakes I guess in not explaining it fully and just let the rumors run wild.
I can't recall MS ever going into detail on this besides that you can still trade in games. Was just one of their mistakes I guess in not explaining it fully and just let the rumors run wild.
I really hope MS sacked their PR dept.
TBH this was the biggest problem with the Xbox 1 reveal. It was hard to actually know what the policies were are MS were so vague with their information, different representatives gave different messages and they allow too many rumours to run without any word from them to either confirm or deny what was been said.
Some of their worst policies might actually have been fine if they had been properly explained them.
TBH this was the biggest problem with the Xbox 1 reveal. It was hard to actually know what the policies were are MS were so vague with their information, different representatives gave different messages and they allow too many rumours to run without any word from them to either confirm or deny what was been said.
Some of their worst policies might actually have been fine if they had been properly explained them.
I agree, i remember within a week long period, i kept hearing different stories about the online check in period, it was, once every 24 hours, once every 48 hours, it hasn't been decided how long the period is, if you take a game you own to a friends house the check in period is once an hour
Couple confusing things like this with how open Sony was, we've probably all seen the piss take video them made about how to lend games on PS4, it was very bad for MS
Had they just been straight forward from the beginning with details, half of the problems wouldn't of been problems and most of they needed to explain the benefit to me the customer
Still won't be buying one, There is literally nothing on the XBone which interest's me.
The article talks about exclusives at launch, Well I don't like the forza series as I don't like its handling model, Don't like Dead Rising & am not interested in Ryse.
My xbox 360 has barely got much use the past 2-3 years because I don't care much for there exclusives outside of Halo & Gears & I much preferred the Dualshock controller for a majority of games (Fighting games especially, Something the 360 pad was hopeless with).
I don't care about which system has the better CPU/GPU or which has the fastest memory access, All I care about is which has the best games, The best pad to play the games I want to play & which offers me the best value for what I want a games system to be.
This generation is was easily the PS3 which met everything I wanted from the exclusive games to the pad to the online system & things like PS+.
I brought a 360 since it was released 1st & enjoyed games like Halo, Gears, Project Gotham, Alan Wake & Perfect Dark but even with those there is nothing to keep me hooked on the xbox platform & want to make me buy there next-gen system.
In some ways yes as you were a strong defender of the MS reveal. But TBH compared to some of the (And I dont really like using this word) fanboys I debated with at the time you were quite mild. If MS had listened to the people blindly defending the console out of brand loyalty it would not be in the position it is today. MS has had a pretty decent recovery since E3 and dropping the always on policy.
At least you are willing to post a thread like this knowing you are going to get some stick for it. I know some other people who would just ignore this and have in the past tried to say that all the people that forced MS to change ruined the Xbox 1 and the great vision they had.
MS had a mixed bag of ideas at their reveal, some interesting, some really bad and some pretty good. Sadly most of that got thrown out the window but I hope over time they can find some consumer friendly ways to return to some of those interesting ideas. Family share (assuming it worked how we assumed) and the lending of digital games was a nice idea I would like to see worked on as digital gaming expands.
If people want to take credit for helping shape MS polices then that's up to them, I cannot say I had any part in that since my pre-order was already down. However the fact is it was never a case of blind loyalty, it was because it had the games that I absolutely MUST own. Some of those polices sucked but I could of lived with them and I didn't for one moment think MS would actually change them so radically.
If people want to take credit for helping shape MS polices then that's up to them, I cannot say I had any part in that since my pre-order was already down. However the fact is it was never a case of blind loyalty, it was because it had the games that I absolutely MUST own. Some of those polices sucked but I could of lived with them and I didn't for one moment think MS would actually change them so radically.
I am however very grateful they did.
Some of the people I was thinking of it was clearly blind loyalty to a brand. As I said my comments are not entirely directed at you personally but the overall group of people I debated with at the time (Of which you were one of them).
Yeah but in posting this topic I wasn't actually inviting any discussion about me as I don't feel I've done anything wrong.
Also, since I get a lot of stick from Sony fans you will of also perhaps noticed I've not been visiting the Sony boards between E3 and now posting negative opinions and generally attempting to stir things up..
That really is the last thing I want to say about any of that, ok? Thanks.
Some of the people I was thinking of it was clearly blind loyalty to a brand. As I said my comments are not entirely directed at you personally but the overall group of people I debated with at the time (Of which you were one of them).
At least 2D was willing to post a thread like this knowing the stick he would likely receive from poster on here.
Yeah but in posting this topic I wasn't actually inviting any discussion about me as I don't feel I've done anything wrong.
Also, since I get a lot of stick from Sony fans you will of also perhaps noticed I've not been visiting the Sony boards between E3 and now posting negative opinions and generally attempting to stir things up..
That really is the last thing I want to say about any of that, ok? Thanks.
Same here. It's something I've been accused of many times on these boards.
Microsoft have made some astonishing errors in the run up to the Xbox One's launch, so much so that I couldn't possibly consider their console as my primary choice. At one point, before the 180's I actually thought it could possibly be DOA.
I've been very vocal about some of their errors, as is my right as a gamer and consumer, but it's infuriating to be shouted down as a Sony fanboy by those that seem hell bent on defending their purchasing decision.
I've owned every Sony and Microsoft console that has been released in this country, all from launch. How that makes me a fanboy is bewildering.
It's good to see Microsoft getting a handle on things, and all being well I look forward to joining the Xbox One collective in the not too distant future.
Same here. It's something I've been accused of many times on these boards.
Microsoft have made some astonishing errors in the run up to the Xbox One's launch, so much so that I couldn't possibly consider their console as my primary choice. At one point, before the 180's I actually thought it could possibly be DOA.
I've been very vocal about some of their errors, as is my right as a gamer and consumer, but it's infuriating to be shouted down as a Sony fanboy by those that seem hell bent on defending their purchasing decision.
I've owned every Sony and Microsoft console that has been released in this country, all from launch. How that makes me a fanboy is bewildering.
It's good to see Microsoft getting a handle on things, and all being well I look forward to joining the Xbox One collective in the not too distant future.
It's infuriating to be shouted down as a "Sony fanboy"? Who's called you that then? Because I don't recall anyone on these boards making such claims.
I called some people Sony fans, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being one, it's not a derogatory slur and it's quite clear some people here have a strong preference either way. I've never understood why that has to be such a problem? Some of us prefer Nintendo, other's Sony and some even Microsoft, I'm sure we can all scrape by despite our differences no?
Speaking from personal experience if I've ever felt a need to defend my purchasing decision, it's because I've been put into that position by people hating on something I like. It's pretty simple how it works and it's been working that way since E3. Conversely you won't see me poking my head into PS4 threads telling others what a horrible machine it is, how they're making a huge mistake and making fun of people who are excited for the system which would likely (and quite rightly) put some of them into a defensive mode.
Comments
BIB - I'm not sure they did realise.
I think they got so stove-piped in their thinking that no one thought about or even considered the real world implications of the ideas/policies they announced. If MS had asked anyone outside of the One's development team what they thought of the direction the console was heading in, I'm sure they would have realised that they were way of course with the consumer. The sorry truth is it would never have occured to them to ask.
It's that classic corporate/executive problem of being convinced you are the smartest guys in the world. Then of course they compounded the problem by reacting badly to the negativity. The "go buy a 360 if you don't like the One" response was as dumb and hostile a response as you could imagine short of "we don't need you're sort of gamer anyway, go f**k yourselves!".
Its good to see they have made changes, but its certainly not because they have listened to the fans - or rather its because they have listened to the fans saying "I'm not going to buy the One" and have reacted to that.
This really was Microsofts "New Coke" moment.
If only more people had been critical about Sonys pay to play online policy :mad:
I suppose that's somewhat directed at me also. You might hope I feel silly but I don't. I was one of the few people who didn't spontaneously reach for my pitchfork and follow the angry mob as I could see both sides of the argument at launch and I loved what I saw of the games at E3. For the record I never liked the mandatory Kinect and 24hr check in and I made that perfectly clear. I was so relieved when they scrapped those. The things like preowned games I was fine about, I was far from the only one too.
I obviously copped a lot of flak from members here back then but I never asked people to trust Microsoft, I only ever tried to help people see both sides of the argument and there were undeniable benefits to their original plan. You were never forced to buy the machine and I felt having such different consoles this time around wasn't maybe such a bad idea. Interesting to note that most of Microsoft's biggest detractors here still aren't buying an X1 despite the drastic policy changes.
This way is undoubtedly better though, no-one thought MS would change their policies in such a drastic way but it certainly wasn't down to "the haters" since they carried on ripping into MS for doing "180's", something that's contradictory in itself. They sure like to take the credit for it though.
Indeed.
It's because of the 180's that I'm getting an X1. MS tried to move to run before they could walk. The biggest gamer demographic is the 25-40's and we had a good run where most things were the same from system to system. MS tried to pull the plug on most of what we know. They met resistance. Instead of closing their eyes and plugging their fingers in their ears they changed some things to make their machine more palatable.
Now, with Watch Dogs and Drive Club delayed, I'm glad I went for both as the X1 looks a better choice at least at launch (boldened to avoid being attacked
I dont think it was ever a case of MS not being a contender even after their epic screw ups and policy u turns.
The Xbox brand is huge and would take a lot more than this to kill it off.
If we keep it all in perspective, PS3 was released as an expensive piece of equipment which whilst being able to go on-line rarey could connect initially with the PS store being awful not to mention the constant updates and patches that take forever to upload!.
Next they got hacked lost peoples credit card details and had to take out insurance to cover anyone who could be subject to fraud.
Despite all of this and much more overe a much longer period they have re-emerged as strong front runners in the "next gen war"
My personal belief is that if MS bring back the "family sharing" and other features now/near future then the general public/hard core gamers would be much more open to this over which was original/ill timed / possible arragant message of "this is what it is so like it or lump it as you will buy it anyway"
I dont think it matters which console is more powerful that the other as game makers who create games for both consoles will make a game to run firstly on which ever console is easiest first then spend the time to make it work on the other.
Originally the easy console was the Xbox with the PS3 being the after thought but this time PS4 is allegedly the easy console to develop for (this is a huge point of contention and will only be settled in a few years when the games start appearing)
1 DISC TO ONE CONSOLE ???
In some ways yes as you were a strong defender of the MS reveal. But TBH compared to some of the (And I dont really like using this word) fanboys I debated with at the time you were quite mild. If MS had listened to the people blindly defending the console out of brand loyalty it would not be in the position it is today. MS has had a pretty decent recovery since E3 and dropping the always on policy.
At least you are willing to post a thread like this knowing you are going to get some stick for it. I know some other people who would just ignore this and have in the past tried to say that all the people that forced MS to change ruined the Xbox 1 and the great vision they had.
MS had a mixed bag of ideas at their reveal, some interesting, some really bad and some pretty good. Sadly most of that got thrown out the window but I hope over time they can find some consumer friendly ways to return to some of those interesting ideas. Family share (assuming it worked how we assumed) and the lending of digital games was a nice idea I would like to see worked on as digital gaming expands.
Your not the only one who tried to be a voice of reason during the "rage storm of hate" against MS.
I think one of the main problems was the used game policy change which in fairness was partly "suggested" by developers who dont see any of that residual cash come their way (unfair situation but this is a different issue all together)
I would love for the family sharing to come back as well as possibly a new version of a way to "sell on" your digital game on a market place where the original dev gets a cut of the sale.
I dont think it helped but can totally see why they did it but their initial reveal was so very American content (yes I know it was announced in USA) but would mean little to nothing to anyone outside of USA. (Deals with American tv shows/channels/sports etc)
Please keep in mind that almost every core gamer across the planet was glued to this reveal which made it appear as if MS could not care less about you unless you were American.
Then came the Europe expos where they had their chance to rectify things and instead rehashed what was said previoulsy...which went down as well as you could expect....then the 180's started flooding in.
MS has given all the haters more than enough ammo to fire at them but in fairness to MS they are trying to do everything possible to fix that situation and let the console stand on its own and apart from all this self inflicted damage.
For the record I am getting both at launch and feel equally excited to see what both can do. (not so much for Kinect through!)
I can't recall MS ever going into detail on this besides that you can still trade in games. Was just one of their mistakes I guess in not explaining it fully and just let the rumors run wild.
I really hope MS sacked their PR dept.
TBH this was the biggest problem with the Xbox 1 reveal. It was hard to actually know what the policies were are MS were so vague with their information, different representatives gave different messages and they allow too many rumours to run without any word from them to either confirm or deny what was been said.
Some of their worst policies might actually have been fine if they had been properly explained them.
I agree, i remember within a week long period, i kept hearing different stories about the online check in period, it was, once every 24 hours, once every 48 hours, it hasn't been decided how long the period is, if you take a game you own to a friends house the check in period is once an hour
Couple confusing things like this with how open Sony was, we've probably all seen the piss take video them made about how to lend games on PS4, it was very bad for MS
Had they just been straight forward from the beginning with details, half of the problems wouldn't of been problems and most of they needed to explain the benefit to me the customer
The article talks about exclusives at launch, Well I don't like the forza series as I don't like its handling model, Don't like Dead Rising & am not interested in Ryse.
My xbox 360 has barely got much use the past 2-3 years because I don't care much for there exclusives outside of Halo & Gears & I much preferred the Dualshock controller for a majority of games (Fighting games especially, Something the 360 pad was hopeless with).
I don't care about which system has the better CPU/GPU or which has the fastest memory access, All I care about is which has the best games, The best pad to play the games I want to play & which offers me the best value for what I want a games system to be.
This generation is was easily the PS3 which met everything I wanted from the exclusive games to the pad to the online system & things like PS+.
I brought a 360 since it was released 1st & enjoyed games like Halo, Gears, Project Gotham, Alan Wake & Perfect Dark but even with those there is nothing to keep me hooked on the xbox platform & want to make me buy there next-gen system.
Is there really any need for this? For the most part this thread has had a mature conversation going :rolleyes:
It points out him contradicting himself. When you have blind faith in something then eventually you are going to slip up.
If people want to take credit for helping shape MS polices then that's up to them, I cannot say I had any part in that since my pre-order was already down. However the fact is it was never a case of blind loyalty, it was because it had the games that I absolutely MUST own. Some of those polices sucked but I could of lived with them and I didn't for one moment think MS would actually change them so radically.
I am however very grateful they did.
You are wrong, but try to keep things on topic please.
Some of the people I was thinking of it was clearly blind loyalty to a brand. As I said my comments are not entirely directed at you personally but the overall group of people I debated with at the time (Of which you were one of them).
At least 2D was willing to post a thread like this knowing the stick he would likely receive from poster on here.
Also, since I get a lot of stick from Sony fans you will of also perhaps noticed I've not been visiting the Sony boards between E3 and now posting negative opinions and generally attempting to stir things up..
That really is the last thing I want to say about any of that, ok? Thanks.
I have no idea how any gaming fan could say something like this.
I am really not a Sony Fan, Far from it.
Same here. It's something I've been accused of many times on these boards.
Microsoft have made some astonishing errors in the run up to the Xbox One's launch, so much so that I couldn't possibly consider their console as my primary choice. At one point, before the 180's I actually thought it could possibly be DOA.
I've been very vocal about some of their errors, as is my right as a gamer and consumer, but it's infuriating to be shouted down as a Sony fanboy by those that seem hell bent on defending their purchasing decision.
I've owned every Sony and Microsoft console that has been released in this country, all from launch. How that makes me a fanboy is bewildering.
It's good to see Microsoft getting a handle on things, and all being well I look forward to joining the Xbox One collective in the not too distant future.
It's infuriating to be shouted down as a "Sony fanboy"? Who's called you that then? Because I don't recall anyone on these boards making such claims.
I called some people Sony fans, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being one, it's not a derogatory slur and it's quite clear some people here have a strong preference either way. I've never understood why that has to be such a problem? Some of us prefer Nintendo, other's Sony and some even Microsoft, I'm sure we can all scrape by despite our differences no?
Speaking from personal experience if I've ever felt a need to defend my purchasing decision, it's because I've been put into that position by people hating on something I like. It's pretty simple how it works and it's been working that way since E3. Conversely you won't see me poking my head into PS4 threads telling others what a horrible machine it is, how they're making a huge mistake and making fun of people who are excited for the system which would likely (and quite rightly) put some of them into a defensive mode.