DRM - general chat

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  • SystemSystem Posts: 2,096,970
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    deleted message...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 37
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    Mine arrived this morning from IGear.
  • MikeBrMikeBr Posts: 7,868
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    There's a report in the Yahoo DAB group that the external speaker socket has been replaced by an external antenna socket on the Morphy Richards.

    As to stations the one service that is serving the UK is Radio Luxembourg 0900-1700 but checking the last two reports on drmdx portal, including one using the Morphy Richards, only 50% and 40% of the audio was decoded. I know there have been technical problems with the transmitter they are using for some time and that the frequency is suffering from interference from other stations though:

    http://www.baseportal.com/cgi-bin/baseportal.pl?htx=/drmdx/main_detail&cmd=all&Id==211
  • hanssolohanssolo Posts: 22,553
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    A lot of the reports on drmdx portal are outside of the beam to UK, so it might be better to UK, not having drm myself yet can't confirm, but listening to the signal on someone elses set it seems strong.
  • MikeBrMikeBr Posts: 7,868
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    hanssolo wrote:
    A lot of the reports on drmdx portal are outside of the beam to UK, so it might be better to UK, not having drm myself yet can't confirm, but listening to the signal on someone elses set it seems strong.

    The two I was quoting were from the UK which is what surprised me but as I say there are other problems with that transmission at the moment.

    A friend of mine at the weekend, who had briefly used the Morphy Richards, told me that the 7295 Luxembourg signal was strong on an analogue shortwave set but would not decode on the Morphy Richards which seems to be the known transmitter fault. Problem is it has been going on for some months.
  • CharlieCharlie Posts: 1,776
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    wgs wrote:
    Mine arrived this morning from IGear.

    Come on then first impressions and then a full report please. ;):D
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 37
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    OK. Very simple to use. Does a full scan of all wavebands and creates a list in alpahabetical order of all stations found, DAB, FM and DRM. Seems to be lacking sensitivity for DRM but then again it's only got a shortish telescopic antenna and I'm in an electrically noisy environment. Audio quality from the internal speaker is very poor. Ability to pause live radio and record to SD card a big plus.
  • Les WiresLes Wires Posts: 6,610
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    wgs wrote:
    OK. Very simple to use. Does a full scan of all wavebands and creates a list in alpahabetical order of all stations found, DAB, FM and DRM. Seems to be lacking sensitivity for DRM but then again it's only got a shortish telescopic antenna and I'm in an electrically noisy environment. Audio quality from the internal speaker is very poor. Ability to pause live radio and record to SD card a big plus.

    The scanning of SW etc for DRM sounds interesting. How many drm stations did it find on your scan? Imagine that scan would take quite a long time for LW/MW/SW
  • Juan Carlos AraJuan Carlos Ara Posts: 5,742
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    MikeBr wrote:
    There's a report in the Yahoo DAB group that the external speaker socket has been replaced by an external antenna socket on the Morphy Richards.

    I have read it, I am a group member there and all I have to say that I am in shock, because apparently that is a modification made by the manufacter and not a home made one and its so unfair, because my radio is one month old (at least at home) and has that external speaker socket rather than an external antenna one, which is all I need.

    That is not serious at all. :mad:
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 37
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    Les. Complete scan took no more than 2 or 3 minutes. Found half a dozen DRM stations: TDPradio, BR-B5akt, DW, RTL France, RTL Radio, Radio Luxembourg, CVC.
  • SystemSystem Posts: 2,096,970
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    I contacted igear today. They were very apologetic about not having yet shipped my Morphy Richards receiver. They have promised it will be shipped on Monday.

    wgs, the fact that your set found all the DRM stations expected looks promising!
  • Les WiresLes Wires Posts: 6,610
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    Yes agree that does sound very promising and that is quite a speed to scan.

    This is the other advantage of DRM, the average person would be very unlikely to find a new AM station on SW but with a scan makes DRM even more attractive.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 37
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    This is the other advantage of DRM, the average person would be very unlikely to find a new AM station on SW but with a scan makes DRM even more attractive.
    Exactly. For DRM to succeed, it needs to be as easy to use as DAB and Radioscape seem to have achieved this.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 272
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    Northern Star International Broadcasters is back in the news:

    http://blogs.rnw.nl/medianetwork/?p=6835

    If they ever manage to get on the air DRM broadcasting is likely.

    Their website proclaims:

    ”THE NORTHERN STAR”
    Digital Radio for Europe and the World!

    http://www.northernstar.no
  • David (2)David (2) Posts: 20,632
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    Is DRM possible in the UK (post code check/type of aerial required)?

    Where to buy the radio's.

    How much do those radio's cost (expensive I think).

    What content is on DRM (not much point if you already get the same stations on DAB or FM and at better quality).

    Whats the DRM sound quality like? With DAB stations gradually downgrading audio quality and "going Mono", what will the real world difference be? If as I suspect this DRM is the lowest quality digital audio system yet, (and just look at the number of posters on DS not happy with DAB quality which is higher!), what will it sound like through a proper hifi?

    Dave
  • MikeBrMikeBr Posts: 7,868
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    David (2) wrote:
    Is DRM possible in the UK (post code check/type of aerial required)?

    Where to buy the radio's.

    How much do those radio's cost (expensive I think).

    What content is on DRM (not much point if you already get the same stations on DAB or FM and at better quality).

    Whats the DRM sound quality like? With DAB stations gradually downgrading audio quality and "going Mono", what will the real world difference be? If as I suspect this DRM is the lowest quality digital audio system yet, (and just look at the number of posters on DS not happy with DAB quality which is higher!), what will it sound like through a proper hifi?

    Dave

    There's no need for a postcode check as you are picking up broadcasts on medium wave and shortwave, the list is here with target areas and powers used:

    http://www.drm.org/livebroadcast/livebroadcast.php

    Note not all are 24 hours and many won't be audible in the UK.

    UK retailer, though I believe they are grey imports is:
    http://www.igear.com/products.php?category_id=0&search_category_id=0&search_string=morphy+richards&image.x=34&image.y=7

    Like DAB DRM sound quality varies as to the bit rate/bandwidth used. One problem is that on European medium wave and shortwave it is restricted to 9 Khz/10 kHz bandwidth. You can't therefore transmit in full stereo, it's parametric. They also use spectral band replication, there's an explanation of these techniques here:
    http://www.codingtechnologies.com/products/aacPlus.htm

    Given a reasonably strong and stable signal on a clear frequency and no local interference problems it will sound better than AM and shortwave. Put it through a hi fi and you will notice digital artefacts, for example watery sounding pianos and odd sounding violins on classical music. It can, to me, sound a bit artificial through a good speaker system at the bandwidths they have to use.

    There's plenty of sound samples here, note that there is no dual transmission mode on the air yet as you would need to be transmitting in DRM on two adjacent frequencies and there is no allocation for that yet:
    http://www.drm.org/system/watchandhear.php
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,790
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    MikeBr wrote:
    There's plenty of sound samples here, note that there is no dual transmission mode on the air yet as you would need to be transmitting in DRM on two adjacent frequencies and there is no allocation for that yet:
    http://www.drm.org/system/watchandhear.php

    I think the sound is good enough, considering anyone who has seriously tried to listen to shortwave for music will say, it's an improvement over the current 4.5kHz audio maximum and add in sideband fading then you've got a recipie for disaster (unless you have been using SSB or synchronous AM) , hopefully the robust mode will stand up to fading without too much pain for the listener.

    I want to hear more user experiences of DRM.
  • hanssolohanssolo Posts: 22,553
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    Anyone know if there any update on this transmitter (Wooferton?) since the press release Feb, which will be probably the most powerful DRM transmitter when it is in operation? Being SW the beam will probably pass over most of the UK on it's first atmospheric hop, but send a very good signal into Europe.
    http://www.vtplc.com/newsandevents/newsdetails.asp?s=&ItemID=642
    Looks like it might be 2 250Kw TXs which can be combined.
    http://www.drmradio.co.uk/html/woofferton.html
    VT Communications is to add a new Digital Radio MondialeTM (DRMTM) compatible transmitter to its AM digital distribution network as it continues to demonstrate its commitment to DRM and the roll out of digital services.
    The new 500 kW HF (short wave) transmitter will be manufactured and supplied by Radio Industry Zagreb (RIZ) in Croatia and is in addition to the recently purchased 100 watt transmitter which will provide local DRM coverage within the London area. These significant investments are part of VT Communications’ strategy to offer customers an international digital transmission capability.
    The latest transmitter will be installed at VT Communications’ transmission facility in Shropshire, UK and will be primarily used to provide extensive HF coverage in Europe. The additional capacity that this transmitter provides on the DRM platform will allow broadcasters around the world to experience the benefits of digital AM technology and develop their digital services.
    edit looks like re-reading the useful drmradio.co.uk site looks like there are 3 txs, one 500kw almost ready to work (tests soon?) and 2 250kw being installed.
  • Les WiresLes Wires Posts: 6,610
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    mikeydb wrote:
    , hopefully the robust mode will stand up to fading without too much pain for the listener.

    I want to hear more user experiences of DRM.
    Fading and other propogation effects on the signal causes very few problems decoding in my experience.

    The difficulties tend to be with co-channel interference, this is why MW and LW are better than SW on this mode.
  • amstereofanamstereofan Posts: 1,765
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    wgs does the radio you brought from igear have the external antenna connection and if so have you tried it ie is it even connected ?!

    Also there is a mod for battery opertion and a longer telescopic antenna, there's a link somewhere on the drmrx or yahoo forums etc. I guess you may be able to DIY but this will invalidate any warenty etc I guess

    I hope this may be added anyway to future versions of the Morphy Richards
  • amstereofanamstereofan Posts: 1,765
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    wgs wrote:
    Les. Complete scan took no more than 2 or 3 minutes. Found half a dozen DRM stations: TDPradio, BR-B5akt, DW, RTL France, RTL Radio, Radio Luxembourg, CVC.

    How do you get on with MW after dark ? You should be getting 1440, 1593 and Vatican radio on 1611 hopefully

    Btw does the AMSS work on BBC WS on 648 khz ??
  • MikeBrMikeBr Posts: 7,868
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    hanssolo wrote:
    Anyone know if there any update on this transmitter (Wooferton?) since the press release Feb, which will be probably the most powerful DRM transmitter when it is in operation? Being SW the beam will probably pass over most of the UK on it's first atmospheric hop, but send a very good signal into Europe.
    http://www.vtplc.com/newsandevents/newsdetails.asp?s=&ItemID=642
    Looks like it might be 2 250Kw TXs which can be combined.
    http://www.drmradio.co.uk/html/woofferton.html

    edit looks like re-reading the useful drmradio.co.uk site looks like there are 3 txs, one 500kw almost ready to work (tests soon?) and 2 250kw being installed.

    Sender 96 is in service, came on mid October.

    Senders 92 and 94 are being removed and replaced by RIZ 250kw AM/ 90/100kw DRM transmitters, should be on by end of March 07.

    Then sender 91 will be removed and again replaced with a RIZ 250kw AM/ 90-100kw DRM transmitter. At the same time Sender 60 at Skelton will be similarly be removed and replaced with a RIZ 250kw AM/ 90-100kw DRM transmitter.

    They start the first phase of the Deutsche Welle contract New Years Day, Deutsche Welle ceases all transmissions, apart from back-up arrangements for Nauen, from T-Systems Werchatal from then and, as you have surmised in the shortwave thread, many will move to Woofferton. More broadcasts will move to VT Communications sites, including Woofferton, in May.

    The VT Press release on the contract. which was released in August, is here:
    http://www.vtplc.com/newsandevents/newsdetails.asp?ItemID=671
  • hanssolohanssolo Posts: 22,553
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    Thanks Mike
    The DW programmes when they move to the UK sites might not be heard in the UK on the first shortwave hop.
    Looks like they might also stop using Sines.
    Other than the London 26Mhz TX, looks like from reading the press release they might use a partner site in Austria, hopefully this will be receivable in UK.
    (Edit)
  • Juan Carlos AraJuan Carlos Ara Posts: 5,742
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    Taken from : http://blogs.rnw.nl/medianetwork/?p=6913

    AM radio in the UK has no future, according to Daily Telegraph.

    Britain’s largest-selling quality newspaper, the Daily Telegraph, has published a story that begins “Radio broadcasts on mediumwave will end within a few years if a powerful coalition of commercial radio interests has its way.” The story refers to the debate being launched by Ofcom, which it describes as “commercial radio’s regulatory body” on the future of radio.

    The story mentions “the growth of digital broadcasts” but fails to refer, even in passing, to Digital Radio Mondiale (DRM). Readers of this story are given the clear impression that mediumwave is only suitable for analogue technology.

    I don’t know anything about the technical background of the writer, David Sapsted, but he has clearly not done very thorough research other than phoning communications regulator Ofcom and a few contacts in the commercial radio industry for quotes. What a missed opportunity for the proponents of DRM.
  • MikeBrMikeBr Posts: 7,868
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    He hasn't even done any research. The article is one of the most blatant examples of plagiarism I have seen. Compare it with the longer and more balanced "Proposal to switch off AM Radio gets a mixed reception from broadcasters" by Amanda Andrews the day before in The Times:
    http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9071-2521803,00.html

    And Sapsted gets paid for a blatant cut and paste job using Ms. Andrews research and even article structure.

    One leading commercial radio group not quoted is UTV who hold one of the two national commercial AM licences, Talksport:

    "One issue which is fundamental to the future of INR and the public interest is that there should be a path mapped out which allows the national stations a future on AM. Whilst all commercial radio operators are developing their digital futures the reality is that digital growth is slower than expected. It is therefore highly unlikely that the 8.5 million adults listening to BBC 5 Live, talkSPORT and Virgin on AM will have migrated in sufficient numbers by 2012 justify any contemplation of an AM switch-off at such an early stage. It is also a reasoned assumption that the older audiences listening on AM, to BBC 5Live and talkSPORT in particular, are not the early adopters of new digital radio reception technology."

    The full EMAP quote from the Times article which Sapsted skates over is:

    The group said that it had recorded a rise in Magic’s AM audiences and it was still too early in the development of digital radio to talk about AM or analogue switch-off.

    Dee Ford, group managing director of Emap Radio, said: “We want people to be able to listen to their Emap Radio service of choice, whenever and wherever they want to — be that AM, FM, DAB or via their TV.”

    Ofcom have also talked about advertising AM licences on a "technology neutral" basis allowing groups to continue to apply to operate in AM if they wished as Talksport and EMAP clearly do.

    But all this of course spoils Sapsted plagiarised story which he decides to give the overdramatic headline "Wave farewell to AM radio says experts" I would have thought the 8.5 million UK AM listeners are also experts.
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