No one will play him, no one will sign him, anything he makes back on sales could not possibly cover the cost of how much he spends on promoting and producing his own stuff, if it were not for his kids and latest prop of a girlfriend no one would be putting anything into print about him either hes just an aging saddo trying desperately to get back what he had and blew twenty years ago, no matter what the cost may be to his kids, or anyone else
Agree. If you're massively popular in any aspect, surely Radio stations and record companies would be falling over themselves to sign/play such a lucrative personality?!
IMO he IS an ageing saddo, with very limited talent, who appeals to um, a very specific demographic and as far as I can see isn't the massively popular personality he's made out to be by some. Yeah, I'm sure he's pleasent and friendly enough when he meets other celebs and goes to TV studios, but then, aren't most people generally, unless they've had a particularly bad day? Doesn't mean you're 'popular' because you're nice to people when you meet them or are in their company!
IMO, I think he's seen as a bit of a cheesy joke, who loves his kids, used to be married to KP and is on the cover of the naffest magazine in the country every other week peddling his faux Waltonsesque existence for mountains of £££££ to the very particular demographic he appeals too and actually buy into and believe his image. The more I look at those pictures on OK the more I think he looks like Emily's dad. **shudder**
IMO the rest of the GBP (so, the other 60 million odd, minus 600:D) don't give him a second thought one way or the other.
So, anyone go to buy a bottle of pong in Kent yesterday and meet the great man himself?
So, anyone go to buy a bottle of pong in Kent yesterday and meet the great man himself?
Sadly, I'm still incapacitated so couldn't drive there despite being the nearest one who probably should have taken one for the team.
I did phone round my friends to see if anyone fancied driving me down there but I didn't get the response I felt my valid request deserved - most of them said very rude words
It's two separate things really, with PA. He's plainly doing fine as far as wealth goes, but he seems to crave fame and constant attention above all else - the end product of all those years of RTV. It's even more apparent since his show finished and he no longer has a platform to show off and talk about himself all the time, hence the relentless, infantile self-promotion and the constant 'look at meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee'. It's really disconcerting for someone in their 40s to be this needy.
It seems to be quite a common thing with fading stars and I can sort of understand it. Generally, I think people who want to be famous (for fames sake not because of any exceptional talent) tend to be natural show-offs who love being the centre of attention. If you're that personality type and you've had a taste of fame it must be hard to go back to being a regular person who no one gives a second look/thought to.
PA and his former wife are the same in this regard they'll each do anything (regardless of how demeaning) for a few lines in the tabloids.
[QUOTE=real world;73657492 Live gigs is where the money is nowadays not sales Also he did his last album through pledge music as are a lot of bands nowadays. This means people pledge up front to buy the album, so all your costs are covered. You also get 80% of the profits (which won't he a lot if it didn't sell) whereas with a traditional deal you generally get 20%.
However if you are worth the 20 million as suggested earlier you are probably not bothered how much it cost to produce and promote. Although reading blondies post it would have hurt his ego if it didn't sell many. But that's what you get when you do a big band thing as his last album sold fairly well I think[/QUOTE]
You are right and album sales are down per se. Tour promoters are quick to cancel tours if tickets aren't selling (Little Mix's US tour cancelled because of poor ticket sales just one example). Apart from when he had to cancel (but rearranged dates when his brother passed away), none of Pete's tours have ever been cancelled due to poor ticket sales.
It seems to be quite a common thing with fading stars and I can sort of understand it. Generally, I think people who want to be famous (for fames sake not because of any exceptional talent) tend to be natural show-offs who love being the centre of attention. If you're that personality type and you've had a taste of fame it must be hard to go back to being a regular person who no one gives a second look/thought to.
PA and his former wife are the same in this regard they'll each do anything (regardless of how demeaning) for a few lines in the tabloids.
Absolutely couldn't agree more. The whole reason most of these hasbeens go into shows like IAC and CBB is a desperate attempt at a second chance of fame. Obviously, this worked very, very well for KP and PA, maybe because they were both so desperate for that second bite of the fame cherry that they were prepared to do whatever it takes to grasp it back with both hands, whatever the cost to their dignity and self respect - if indeed those were qualities either possessed.
I do think though that PA really feels what he is doing is beneath him and his absolute goal is to be taken seriously as a musician. But that really is never going to happen so he grins and bears the fact he will always be the cheesy bloke who used to be married to Jordan and just thinks of the pay day and the fame.
They are 100% two peas in the same fame obsessed pod, they just have very different ways of operating. IMHO, she's an out of control wailing banshee and he's more sly and manipulative but still both as attention seeking as each other
It seems to be quite a common thing with fading stars and I can sort of understand it. Generally, I think people who want to be famous (for fames sake not because of any exceptional talent) tend to be natural show-offs who love being the centre of attention. If you're that personality type and you've had a taste of fame it must be hard to go back to being a regular person who no one gives a second look/thought to.
PA and his former wife are the same in this regard they'll each do anything (regardless of how demeaning) for a few lines in the tabloids.
Agree, Pip. It's practically a drug with them. I do find PA more ridiculous though and far more irritating/laughable. I think it's because he, at heart, is the very needy, very vain, very immature man he's always been and this 'mature, classy' image he's been trying to flog for the last few years is just not and never will be him, which is why he comes across as so insincere and self-serving.
Who are these industry people who respect him so much? I've never heard anyone, beyond a few paid CAN or ex-CAN creepers, say anything nice about him. Other celebs either take the piss out of him (see Never Mind the Buzzcocks, Mock the Week, and most of his chat show appearances) or don't say anything about him at all. Why aren't people rushing to collaborate with him, if he's so well thought of by his fellow musicians? (I use the term musician very loosely regarding Andre). You don't see any of his famous "friends" talking him up, do you? Or even mentioning him at all, as a matter of fact. Too perturbed by his over-familiar manner, I imagine.
A few hundred (at most) people turning up to rubberneck or wave to their mums on camera whenever he does 60MM or autographs his sponsored rubbish doesn't make him hugely popular with the public. Nobody's saying he hasn't got any fans at all, he just doesn't have many, and claiming he's some sort of superstar is just ridiculous.
Twitter followers are completely meaningless as well. Most of that 3.5 million (and it applies to other celebs as well, even very famous ones that DO have lots of fans), will either be bought by management, or will be from fake accounts. Also, even if they were all real, where are they when he releases an album, or does a signing or even goes on tour? Nowhere to be seen.
Agree, Pip. It's practically a drug with them. I do find PA more ridiculous though and far more irritating/laughable. I think it's because he, at heart, is the very needy, very vain, very immature man he's always been and this 'mature, classy' image he's been trying to flog for the last few years is just not and never will be him, which is why he comes across as so insincere and self-serving.
Still, good for a laugh. ;-)
I think they are fairly well matched in the ridiculous stakes! Both seemingly lack any kind of self-awareness at all. :-)
I find KP the more annoying as she is just so vulgar and crass and yet there are young women who admire and aspire to be like her. I find it sad and infuriating in equal measures. I don't think any young men aspire to be like poor Pete, bless him!
I think they are fairly well matched in the ridiculous stakes! Both seemingly lack any kind of self-awareness at all. :-)
I find KP the more annoying as she is just so vulgar and crass and yet there are young women who admire and aspire to be like her. I find it sad and infuriating in equal measures. I don't think any young men aspire to be like poor Pete, bless him!
For me, he is equally vulgar and crass. (I still cringe remembering their sex talk on their show). Difference is - she has no filter and is incapable of pretending to be anything but a foul mouthed loose cannon. He hides it more and is very disingenuous - which is far more dangerous. He plays the 'shrugging nice guy' very well. When he's anything but IMHO.
I think they are fairly well matched in the ridiculous stakes! Both seemingly lack any kind of self-awareness at all. :-)
I find KP the more annoying as she is just so vulgar and crass and yet there are young women who admire and aspire to be like her. I find it sad and infuriating in equal measures. I don't think any young men aspire to be like poor Pete, bless him!
Oh sure, I wasn't for a minute suggesting KP is anything other than ridiculous, and vulgar and crass and insensitive and all the rest, my point was more that she makes no attempts to hide it whereas he does, but his attempts at distancing himself from what he is are so woeful that it makes him look more ridiculous than he might be if he stopped trying to sell himself as something he's not. If he reined in the micro-managed oversell, he'd probably be a bit more bearable. A bit... ;-)
Agree, Pip. It's practically a drug with them. I do find PA more ridiculous though and far more irritating/laughable. I think it's because he, at heart, is the very needy, very vain, very immature man he's always been and this 'mature, classy' image he's been trying to flog for the last few years is just not and never will be him, which is why he comes across as so insincere and self-serving.
Who are these industry people who respect him so much? I've never heard anyone, beyond a few paid CAN or ex-CAN creepers, say anything nice about him. Other celebs either take the piss out of him (see Never Mind the Buzzcocks, Mock the Week, and most of his chat show appearances) or don't say anything about him at all. Why aren't people rushing to collaborate with him, if he's so well thought of by his fellow musicians? (I use the term musician very loosely regarding Andre). You don't see any of his famous "friends" talking him up, do you? Or even mentioning him at all, as a matter of fact. Too perturbed by his over-familiar manner, I imagine.
A few hundred (at most) people turning up to rubberneck or wave to their mums on camera whenever he does 60MM or autographs his sponsored rubbish doesn't make him hugely popular with the public. Nobody's saying he hasn't got any fans at all, he just doesn't have many, and claiming he's some sort of superstar is just ridiculous.
Twitter followers are completely meaningless as well. Most of that 3.5 million (and it applies to other celebs as well, even very famous ones that DO have lots of fans), will either be bought by management, or will be from fake accounts. Also, even if they were all real, where are they when he releases an album, or does a signing or even goes on tour? Nowhere to be seen.
Unfortunately TM fails to realise that fact & the daft fool thinks all those people are out to see their idol, when really all they want is their face on camera or as you say, to wave to their Mum.
Completely agree re Twitter, the number of followers you have has nothing whatsoever to do with your popularity.
I think they are fairly well matched in the ridiculous stakes! Both seemingly lack any kind of self-awareness at all. :-)
I find KP the more annoying as she is just so vulgar and crass and yet there are young women who admire and aspire to be like her. I find it sad and infuriating in equal measures. I don't think any young men aspire to be like poor Pete, bless him!
I want to grow up to be just like Peter Andre said..................no-one ever!
For me, he is equally vulgar and crass. (I still cringe remembering their sex talk on their show). Difference is - she has no filter and is incapable of pretending to be anything but a foul mouthed loose cannon. He hides it more and is very disingenuous - which is far more dangerous. He plays the 'shrugging nice guy' very well. When he's anything but IMHO.
And this is why, much as I dislike KP, TM is way more unlikeable.
I think they are fairly well matched in the ridiculous stakes! Both seemingly lack any kind of self-awareness at all. :-)
I find KP the more annoying as she is just so vulgar and crass and yet there are young women who admire and aspire to be like her. I find it sad and infuriating in equal measures. I don't think any young men aspire to be like poor Pete, bless him!
Yeah, I don't think you'll be getting any argument about that one - although I find it totally baffling and more than a bit depressing that any young woman would aspire to be like KP.
I have to say that I think he is just as vulgar and crass as she is - he married her after all, and try as I might, I cannot erase the sight of them happily dry-humping, or the memory of his "sex-tips".
While I truly believe that his re-invention as a dignified, gentlemanly family man is a complete pile of guff, and he's still the sleazy little cheeseball he always was, he's just got much, much better at disguising his true nature.
He now knows when to shut the hell up and maintain the carefully crafted illusion, and sadly KP just never does and proves time and time again that she really is what she is.
For me that's the only difference.
Yeah, I don't think you'll be getting any argument about that one - although I find it totally baffling and more than a bit depressing that any young woman would aspire to be like KP.
I have to say that I think he is just as vulgar and crass as she is - he married her after all, and try as I might, I cannot erase the sight of them happily dry-humping, or the memory of his "sex-tips". While I truly believe that his re-invention as a dignified, gentlemanly family man is a complete pile of guff, and he's still the sleazy little cheeseball he always was, he's just got much, much better at disguising his true nature.
He now knows when to shut the hell up and maintain the carefully crafted illusion, and sadly KP just never does and proves time and time again that she really is what she is.
For me that's the only difference.
Is it not possible that Jordan was disguising his true nature and when he eventually got rid of her he proved what a thoroughly decent man he really is?
You are right and album sales are down per se. Tour promoters are quick to cancel tours if tickets aren't selling (Little Mix's US tour cancelled because of poor ticket sales just one example). Apart from when he had to cancel (but rearranged dates when his brother passed away), none of Pete's tours have ever been cancelled due to poor ticket sales.
Is it not possible that Jordan was disguising his true nature and when he eventually got rid of her he proved what a thoroughly decent man he really is?
Bless your heart for trying, but no.
When he left KP, he pretended to be celibate while subjecting a variety of young ladies to his special jacuzzi treatment, lied about it, got caught out, lied some more, then renewed his vow of celibacy, changed his mind again, did some more "dating" (Elen the CANbot, Casey Big Brother, a couple of backing dancers and randoms), before inexplicably settling down with up-the-duff student natural, tossy Dr Embolism.
Can't see much decency there, can you?
It might well be true, but to be fair, if the venues are small enough, even Tangoman could manage to fill them with his few remaining, faithful fans ( who don't buy his records or watch his tv programme).
Bless your heart for trying, but no.
When he left KP, he pretended to be celibate while subjecting a variety of young ladies to his special jacuzzi treatment, lied about it, got caught out, lied some more, then renewed his vow of celibacy, changed his mind again, did some more "dating" (Elen the CANbot, Casey Big Brother, a couple of backing dancers and randoms), before inexplicably settling down with up-the-duff student natural, tossy Dr Embolism.
Can't see much decency there, can you?
It might well be true, but to be fair, if the venues are small enough, even Tangoman could manage to fill them with his few remaining, faithful fans ( who don't buy his records or watch his tv programme).
Maybe he wasn't celibate, who cares. Like any decent Father I imagine he was only protecting his children by claiming to be so, he is a good looking fit red blooded male and probably has hundreds of ladies after him. Why shouldn't he have some fun after the years he had with Jordan.
I am going to see him at the RAH and that is not a small venue and I would be surprised to see empty seats.
Is it not possible that Jordan was disguising his true nature and when he eventually got rid of her he proved what a thoroughly decent man he really is?
Would a thoroughly decent man ever have touched her with a bargepole? I think not
Maybe he wasn't celibate, who cares. Like any decent Father I imagine he was only protecting his children by claiming to be so, he is a good looking fit red blooded male and probably has hundreds of ladies after him. Why shouldn't he have some fun after the years he had with Jordan.
I am going to see him at the RAH and that is not a small venue and I would be surprised to see empty seats.
Oh don't get me wrong, there was nothing whatsoever wrong with him "enjoying himself".
He was a single bloke after all, so why shouldn't he?
What I found objectionable was the bare-faced lying about what and who he was doing.
It was all about maintaining the false image of himself he'd chosen to portray in the aftermath of the marriage breakdown.
And I found his dishonesty and dissembling to be truly nauseating.
So maybe you're right after all, and that really was his true nature.
A shallow, feeble-minded, weak-willed liar.
Is it not possible that Jordan was disguising his true nature and when he eventually got rid of her he proved what a thoroughly decent man he really is?
How is KP responsible for the way he behaved? (1) He's 5/6 years older than her and had years of fame/life in the spotlight prior to meeting her. (2) There's an old interview posted on this thread when he was in his 20s where he sounds exactly like he is right now; full of the same shallow, needy vanity that he displays everytime he opens his mouth.
Stop blaming her for what he is. It's ridiculous and you're not doing him any favours by making him look like a malleable fool.
Would a thoroughly decent man ever have touched her with a bargepole? I think not
I think Jordan pretended to be something she wasn't and sadly by the time Pete realised she was not the lady he thought she was he had already fallen for her.
Everyone makes mistakes I'm just happy he has found Emily who is worth a million of Jordan.
I think Jordan pretended to be something she wasn't and sadly by the time Pete realised she was not the lady he thought she was he had already fallen for her.
Everyone makes mistakes I'm just happy he has found Emily who is worth a million of Jordan.
I know you're a fan but come on. She wears exactly what she is on her sleeve and he would have to have been living in a cave in the Tora Bora Mountains to not know her history. He even said himself he was warned about her before the jungle but I suppose the lures of easy sex and easy cash was too hard to say no to
Comments
Agree. If you're massively popular in any aspect, surely Radio stations and record companies would be falling over themselves to sign/play such a lucrative personality?!
IMO he IS an ageing saddo, with very limited talent, who appeals to um, a very specific demographic and as far as I can see isn't the massively popular personality he's made out to be by some. Yeah, I'm sure he's pleasent and friendly enough when he meets other celebs and goes to TV studios, but then, aren't most people generally, unless they've had a particularly bad day? Doesn't mean you're 'popular' because you're nice to people when you meet them or are in their company!
IMO, I think he's seen as a bit of a cheesy joke, who loves his kids, used to be married to KP and is on the cover of the naffest magazine in the country every other week peddling his faux Waltonsesque existence for mountains of £££££ to the very particular demographic he appeals too and actually buy into and believe his image. The more I look at those pictures on OK the more I think he looks like Emily's dad. **shudder**
IMO the rest of the GBP (so, the other 60 million odd, minus 600:D) don't give him a second thought one way or the other.
So, anyone go to buy a bottle of pong in Kent yesterday and meet the great man himself?
Sadly, I'm still incapacitated so couldn't drive there despite being the nearest one who probably should have taken one for the team.
I did phone round my friends to see if anyone fancied driving me down there but I didn't get the response I felt my valid request deserved - most of them said very rude words
It seems to be quite a common thing with fading stars and I can sort of understand it. Generally, I think people who want to be famous (for fames sake not because of any exceptional talent) tend to be natural show-offs who love being the centre of attention. If you're that personality type and you've had a taste of fame it must be hard to go back to being a regular person who no one gives a second look/thought to.
PA and his former wife are the same in this regard they'll each do anything (regardless of how demeaning) for a few lines in the tabloids.
However if you are worth the 20 million as suggested earlier you are probably not bothered how much it cost to produce and promote. Although reading blondies post it would have hurt his ego if it didn't sell many. But that's what you get when you do a big band thing as his last album sold fairly well I think[/QUOTE]
You are right and album sales are down per se. Tour promoters are quick to cancel tours if tickets aren't selling (Little Mix's US tour cancelled because of poor ticket sales just one example). Apart from when he had to cancel (but rearranged dates when his brother passed away), none of Pete's tours have ever been cancelled due to poor ticket sales.
Absolutely couldn't agree more. The whole reason most of these hasbeens go into shows like IAC and CBB is a desperate attempt at a second chance of fame. Obviously, this worked very, very well for KP and PA, maybe because they were both so desperate for that second bite of the fame cherry that they were prepared to do whatever it takes to grasp it back with both hands, whatever the cost to their dignity and self respect - if indeed those were qualities either possessed.
I do think though that PA really feels what he is doing is beneath him and his absolute goal is to be taken seriously as a musician. But that really is never going to happen so he grins and bears the fact he will always be the cheesy bloke who used to be married to Jordan and just thinks of the pay day and the fame.
They are 100% two peas in the same fame obsessed pod, they just have very different ways of operating. IMHO, she's an out of control wailing banshee and he's more sly and manipulative but still both as attention seeking as each other
Agree, Pip. It's practically a drug with them. I do find PA more ridiculous though and far more irritating/laughable. I think it's because he, at heart, is the very needy, very vain, very immature man he's always been and this 'mature, classy' image he's been trying to flog for the last few years is just not and never will be him, which is why he comes across as so insincere and self-serving.
Still, good for a laugh. ;-)
A few hundred (at most) people turning up to rubberneck or wave to their mums on camera whenever he does 60MM or autographs his sponsored rubbish doesn't make him hugely popular with the public. Nobody's saying he hasn't got any fans at all, he just doesn't have many, and claiming he's some sort of superstar is just ridiculous.
Twitter followers are completely meaningless as well. Most of that 3.5 million (and it applies to other celebs as well, even very famous ones that DO have lots of fans), will either be bought by management, or will be from fake accounts. Also, even if they were all real, where are they when he releases an album, or does a signing or even goes on tour? Nowhere to be seen.
I think they are fairly well matched in the ridiculous stakes! Both seemingly lack any kind of self-awareness at all. :-)
I find KP the more annoying as she is just so vulgar and crass and yet there are young women who admire and aspire to be like her. I find it sad and infuriating in equal measures. I don't think any young men aspire to be like poor Pete, bless him!
For me, he is equally vulgar and crass. (I still cringe remembering their sex talk on their show). Difference is - she has no filter and is incapable of pretending to be anything but a foul mouthed loose cannon. He hides it more and is very disingenuous - which is far more dangerous. He plays the 'shrugging nice guy' very well. When he's anything but IMHO.
Oh sure, I wasn't for a minute suggesting KP is anything other than ridiculous, and vulgar and crass and insensitive and all the rest, my point was more that she makes no attempts to hide it whereas he does, but his attempts at distancing himself from what he is are so woeful that it makes him look more ridiculous than he might be if he stopped trying to sell himself as something he's not. If he reined in the micro-managed oversell, he'd probably be a bit more bearable. A bit... ;-)
He most certainly is that.
Unfortunately TM fails to realise that fact & the daft fool thinks all those people are out to see their idol, when really all they want is their face on camera or as you say, to wave to their Mum.
Completely agree re Twitter, the number of followers you have has nothing whatsoever to do with your popularity.
I want to grow up to be just like Peter Andre said..................no-one ever!
And this is why, much as I dislike KP, TM is way more unlikeable.
Yeah, I don't think you'll be getting any argument about that one - although I find it totally baffling and more than a bit depressing that any young woman would aspire to be like KP.
I have to say that I think he is just as vulgar and crass as she is - he married her after all, and try as I might, I cannot erase the sight of them happily dry-humping, or the memory of his "sex-tips".
While I truly believe that his re-invention as a dignified, gentlemanly family man is a complete pile of guff, and he's still the sleazy little cheeseball he always was, he's just got much, much better at disguising his true nature.
He now knows when to shut the hell up and maintain the carefully crafted illusion, and sadly KP just never does and proves time and time again that she really is what she is.
For me that's the only difference.
Peter Andre's girl Emily MacDonagh: I lost my baby weight by carrying Amelia - she's really big now.
Really? That can happens?
Is it not possible that Jordan was disguising his true nature and when he eventually got rid of her he proved what a thoroughly decent man he really is?
That is very true:)
Emily said it worked for her, no wonder the baby was never in a pram. PA must have also lost weight as he was photographed carrying Amelia.
I don't have a baby around, I wonder if I carry my dog everywhere I could shed a few pounds weight
Bless your heart for trying, but no.
When he left KP, he pretended to be celibate while subjecting a variety of young ladies to his special jacuzzi treatment, lied about it, got caught out, lied some more, then renewed his vow of celibacy, changed his mind again, did some more "dating" (Elen the CANbot, Casey Big Brother, a couple of backing dancers and randoms), before inexplicably settling down with up-the-duff student natural, tossy Dr Embolism.
Can't see much decency there, can you?
It might well be true, but to be fair, if the venues are small enough, even Tangoman could manage to fill them with his few remaining, faithful fans ( who don't buy his records or watch his tv programme).
It can...except not long ago "sources" told Ok!
"She usually eats off a side plate to keep her portion sizes down".
Backpedal much?
Maybe he wasn't celibate, who cares. Like any decent Father I imagine he was only protecting his children by claiming to be so, he is a good looking fit red blooded male and probably has hundreds of ladies after him. Why shouldn't he have some fun after the years he had with Jordan.
I am going to see him at the RAH and that is not a small venue and I would be surprised to see empty seats.
Would a thoroughly decent man ever have touched her with a bargepole? I think not
Oh don't get me wrong, there was nothing whatsoever wrong with him "enjoying himself".
He was a single bloke after all, so why shouldn't he?
What I found objectionable was the bare-faced lying about what and who he was doing.
It was all about maintaining the false image of himself he'd chosen to portray in the aftermath of the marriage breakdown.
And I found his dishonesty and dissembling to be truly nauseating.
So maybe you're right after all, and that really was his true nature.
A shallow, feeble-minded, weak-willed liar.
How is KP responsible for the way he behaved? (1) He's 5/6 years older than her and had years of fame/life in the spotlight prior to meeting her. (2) There's an old interview posted on this thread when he was in his 20s where he sounds exactly like he is right now; full of the same shallow, needy vanity that he displays everytime he opens his mouth.
Stop blaming her for what he is. It's ridiculous and you're not doing him any favours by making him look like a malleable fool.
I think Jordan pretended to be something she wasn't and sadly by the time Pete realised she was not the lady he thought she was he had already fallen for her.
Everyone makes mistakes I'm just happy he has found Emily who is worth a million of Jordan.
I know you're a fan but come on. She wears exactly what she is on her sleeve and he would have to have been living in a cave in the Tora Bora Mountains to not know her history. He even said himself he was warned about her before the jungle but I suppose the lures of easy sex and easy cash was too hard to say no to