In an ideal world you could keep your car or house unlocked and nothing would happen. But one has to be practical. There are ways one can behave to minimise certain risks.[/QUOTE]
Basically anything. You drink yourself unconscious, you can get yourself raped, killed, beaten up, sold to slavery, etc. etc. Things are beyond your control.
Exactly. Those boys shouldn't have got so drunk that they completely lost control.
But it's not their fault.
SHE was drunk so was obviously asking for men to jump on top of her, overpower her and gangrape her.
See, if she'd been sober, it wouldn't have happened. Or is less likely to have happened. So the fact that she was drunk means that she had no means to overpower them. If she'd been sober, she might have been able to stop them, fight them, or just not have been as attractive as a rape victim.
unless you've seen anyone saying any of those things, then you are very deliberately twisting what has been said, despite claiming it was impossible for you to do so.
SHE was drunk so was obviously asking for men to jump on top of her, overpower her and gangrape her.
See, if she'd been sober, it wouldn't have happened. Or is less likely to have happened. So the fact that she was drunk means that she had no means to overpower them. If she'd been sober, she might have been able to stop them, fight them, or just not have been as attractive as a rape victim.
Those poor innocent boys.
Look, you give up control over yourself, you put yourself at mercy of other people. Not all people are nice and mean you no harm. That does not mean those other people have no blame, they do.
Look, you give up control over yourself, you put yourself at mercy of other people. Not all people are nice and mean you no harm. That does not mean those other people have no blame, they do.
You step out of your front door you put yourself at the mercy of other people.
an intelligent person would be able to understand the difference between both scenarios
:rolleyes:
An intelligent/empathetic person wouldn't have said:
I also think that had the victim not been uncontrollably drunk, there's a fair chance she would not have suffered what she did.
You have no proof of that whatsoever.
What IS irrefutable however, is that if these boys hadn't have stripped her naked, penetrated her without her consent and then filmed it back THEY probably wouldn't be in prison now and they would not be guilty of rape.
yes, the word "think" in my statement should probably have been the dead giveaway that I was giving an opinion, rather than a statement of fact. my apologies if for some reason this wasn't obvious to you.
you can keep on repeating the same thing over and over, and it won't make the blindest bit of difference. if after everything I've said, you still take away that I'm blaming the victim, then there's a lack of basic understanding on your side, not mine.
yes, the word "think" in my statement should probably have been the dead giveaway that I was giving an opinion, rather than a statement of fact. my apologies if for some reason this wasn't obvious to you.
you can keep on repeating the same thing over and over, and it won't make the blindest bit of difference. if after everything I've said, you still take away that I'm blaming the victim, then there's a lack of basic understanding on your side, not mine.
What bothers me more about Serena's magazine comment, is that she asks if it was 'fair' regarding the sentences of the 2 rapists, it sounds to me like she was almost sympathising with them.
After reading about the case, which totally horrified and disgusted me, I don't feel one ounce of sympathy for the animals, they deserved everything they got.
In an ideal world you could keep your car or house unlocked and nothing would happen. But one has to be practical. There are ways one can behave to minimise certain risks.
Another post that's smack bang on. It's not possible to completely avoid being raped, but people should try and minimise the risk of it by trying to stay safe.
I think there are two issues here. One is that some comments are about rape in general and some about this specific case. I don't think any of the references to potentially 'irresponsible' behaviour relate to the poor victims of the original case at least I hope not.
The other is that there's an assumption that anyone who says that women should take more care are saying it is at least partly the woman's fault. Not so. I can't speak for others but all I'm saying is people need to have a bit of common sense e.g. don't get in cars assuming that they are proper cabs.
All I'd say to women who react angrily to this sort of advice is that I'll bet you don't walk around busy shops with your handbag open and purse promptly on display. Instead you take basic precautions because there are unpleasant people out there.
I think there are two issues here. One is that some comments are about rape in general and some about this specific case. I don't think any of the references to potentially 'irresponsible' behaviour relate to the poor victims of the original case at least I hope not.
The other is that there's an assumption that anyone who says that women should take more care are saying it is at least partly the woman's fault. Not so. I can't speak for others but all I'm saying is people need to have a bit of common sense e.g. don't get in cars assuming that they are proper cabs.
All I'd say to women who react angrily to this sort of advice is that I'll bet you don't walk around busy shops with your handbag open and purse promptly on display. Instead you take basic precautions because there are unpleasant people out there.
Then what does this statement mean:
I also think that had the victim not been uncontrollably drunk, there's a fair chance she would not have suffered what she did.
To me, that suggests, BECAUSE she was drunk, she was raped. Nothing to do with the perpetrators, just putting the onus on the victim.
As has been said tirelessly on this thread previously, rapists will rape. Women can't stop going out, opening their doors to strangers and assessing every single situation for 'signs' of rape. Rapists are usually known to their victims - as was the case here.
No, I don't walk around shops with my purse on display - but if I did - accidentally or otherwise, and I was mugged, it would not be my fault.
To continually talk about precautions and the amount that the victims have drunk is, IMHO, putting the emphasis on the victim, when we should actually be educating men that rape is wrong and should never be carried out, no matter how drunk they, or their victims, are.
it's been explained to you in great detail how the blame is not being put on the victim(s), and yet you keep insisting it is.
everyone that has commented has stressed time and again that it's an abhorrent act on the part of the perpetrators, so quite where you got "nothing to do with the perpetrators" from is baffling me slightly.
no-one with half a braincell needs to be educated that rape is wrong and shouldn't be carried out, and no-one is claiming it's in any way acceptable. I think perhaps you are the one that needs to be educated on actually understanding the other person's argument first before responding.
it's been explained to you in great detail how the blame is not being put on the victim(s), and yet you keep insisting it is.
everyone that has commented has stressed time and again that it's an abhorrent act on the part of the perpetrators, so quite where you got "nothing to do with the perpetrators" from is baffling me slightly.
no-one with half a braincell needs to be educated that rape is wrong and shouldn't be carried out, and no-one is claiming it's in any way acceptable. I think perhaps you are the one that needs to be educated on actually understanding the other person's argument first before responding.
I will repeat your quote to you again:
I also think that had the victim not been uncontrollably drunk, there's a fair chance she would not have suffered what she did.
So we need to educate women not to get drunk but there's no point educating that rape is wrong?
a really good video talk to watch that backs up everything you've said. Completely agree.
Thanks for link, lucycy89. An excellent talk. This -
'Asking questions about Mary is not going to get us anywhere in terms of preventing violence. We have to ask a different set of questions....the questions are not about Mary, they're about John..'
I also think that had the victim not been uncontrollably drunk, there's a fair chance she would not have suffered what she did.
...To continually talk about precautions and the amount that the victims have drunk is, IMHO, putting the emphasis on the victim, when we should actually be educating men that rape is wrong and should never be carried out, no matter how drunk they, or their victims, are.
1. I never said that and never would.
2. Totally agree. Focus should be on educating and deterring rapists. It's ridiculous to suggest women shouldn't go out and get drunk. It's not ridiculous to say that you should be careful.
Comments
Exactly. Those boys shouldn't have got so drunk that they completely lost control.
Basically anything. You drink yourself unconscious, you can get yourself raped, killed, beaten up, sold to slavery, etc. etc. Things are beyond your control.
completely agree. I also think that had the victim not been uncontrollably drunk, there's a fair chance she would not have suffered what she did.
But it's not their fault.
SHE was drunk so was obviously asking for men to jump on top of her, overpower her and gangrape her.
See, if she'd been sober, it wouldn't have happened. Or is less likely to have happened. So the fact that she was drunk means that she had no means to overpower them. If she'd been sober, she might have been able to stop them, fight them, or just not have been as attractive as a rape victim.
Those poor innocent boys.
What about how drunk they were?
can you not read?
Look, you give up control over yourself, you put yourself at mercy of other people. Not all people are nice and mean you no harm. That does not mean those other people have no blame, they do.
You step out of your front door you put yourself at the mercy of other people.
:rolleyes:
An intelligent/empathetic person wouldn't have said:
I also think that had the victim not been uncontrollably drunk, there's a fair chance she would not have suffered what she did.
You have no proof of that whatsoever.
What IS irrefutable however, is that if these boys hadn't have stripped her naked, penetrated her without her consent and then filmed it back THEY probably wouldn't be in prison now and they would not be guilty of rape.
you can keep on repeating the same thing over and over, and it won't make the blindest bit of difference. if after everything I've said, you still take away that I'm blaming the victim, then there's a lack of basic understanding on your side, not mine.
Touche.
After reading about the case, which totally horrified and disgusted me, I don't feel one ounce of sympathy for the animals, they deserved everything they got.
Another post that's smack bang on. It's not possible to completely avoid being raped, but people should try and minimise the risk of it by trying to stay safe.
The other is that there's an assumption that anyone who says that women should take more care are saying it is at least partly the woman's fault. Not so. I can't speak for others but all I'm saying is people need to have a bit of common sense e.g. don't get in cars assuming that they are proper cabs.
All I'd say to women who react angrily to this sort of advice is that I'll bet you don't walk around busy shops with your handbag open and purse promptly on display. Instead you take basic precautions because there are unpleasant people out there.
Then what does this statement mean:
I also think that had the victim not been uncontrollably drunk, there's a fair chance she would not have suffered what she did.
To me, that suggests, BECAUSE she was drunk, she was raped. Nothing to do with the perpetrators, just putting the onus on the victim.
As has been said tirelessly on this thread previously, rapists will rape. Women can't stop going out, opening their doors to strangers and assessing every single situation for 'signs' of rape. Rapists are usually known to their victims - as was the case here.
No, I don't walk around shops with my purse on display - but if I did - accidentally or otherwise, and I was mugged, it would not be my fault.
To continually talk about precautions and the amount that the victims have drunk is, IMHO, putting the emphasis on the victim, when we should actually be educating men that rape is wrong and should never be carried out, no matter how drunk they, or their victims, are.
a really good video talk to watch that backs up everything you've said. Completely agree.
everyone that has commented has stressed time and again that it's an abhorrent act on the part of the perpetrators, so quite where you got "nothing to do with the perpetrators" from is baffling me slightly.
no-one with half a braincell needs to be educated that rape is wrong and shouldn't be carried out, and no-one is claiming it's in any way acceptable. I think perhaps you are the one that needs to be educated on actually understanding the other person's argument first before responding.
I will repeat your quote to you again:
I also think that had the victim not been uncontrollably drunk, there's a fair chance she would not have suffered what she did.
So we need to educate women not to get drunk but there's no point educating that rape is wrong?
I think perhaps you might need to be educated.
Thanks for link, lucycy89. An excellent talk. This -
'Asking questions about Mary is not going to get us anywhere in terms of preventing violence. We have to ask a different set of questions....the questions are not about Mary, they're about John..'
- sums it up so perfectly.
1. I never said that and never would.
2. Totally agree. Focus should be on educating and deterring rapists. It's ridiculous to suggest women shouldn't go out and get drunk. It's not ridiculous to say that you should be careful.