Joy Division

barbelerbarbeler Posts: 23,827
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After watching the brilliant documentary it made me wonder if truly original music actually ended in the 1980s and perhaps some of the 1990s.

That was when music formed through angst, invention, anger and frustration was all played out; after that everything is now simply songs.

At the present moment, all we have that we seem to have that counts as edgy and original is Royal Blood - nothing wrong with that in its own way, but hardly on the same level.

Discuss.
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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 619
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    i'm probably the only person to prefer Paul Young's version of Love Will Tear Us Apart !!
  • uniqueunique Posts: 12,412
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    i've never been into joy division, but some of new orders stuff is really great. love will tear us apart is a great track, but the rest just never got me. the biopic was pretty good. i didn't think the documentary was that great. i was also dissapointed by the kraftwerk one. i wouldn't go so far to saw i was a kraftwerk fan but i have all their albums plus a lot more. i was just expecting a really amazing documentary

    fans may have loved it but i get the impression that the idea of these documentaries is to show artists to a wider audience and show whats so great about them, or why they have appeal, and i didn't think those two worked. i had a discussion with someone else about the kraftwerk one and they thought the same, and that was someone who similarly was into them but not so much to say they were a fan. perhaps the problem with those acts is the lack of decent visual material to tell the story, or lack of input from kraftwerk. some of these documentaries have no specific input from the artists but this one had some good input from the members, plus paul morley is usually enjoyable

    would be good if they do a new order one as they may have some better footage
  • mgvsmithmgvsmith Posts: 16,456
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    I think that Grant Gee's 'Joy Division' documentary makes a great companion piece to Anton Corbijn's 'Control'. The imagery and tone are similar, if a little darker in 'Control'.

    Although there is nothing really new added to the story, the documentary stands as a testament to what Pete Saville describes as 'one of the last true stories of pop'. There are some trademark Grant Gee visual effects which attempt to disguise that there isn't a huge amount of source material. The visual culture of Manchester provides a brilliant context and is used repeatedly to contrast the then and now. Deborah Curtis's book 'Touching from a Distance' is essential reading afterwards.

    As for the bigger issue of whether there are any newer stories of pop. I think there are some. Radiohead have a good narrative. There is a lot of angst in the early works and then a determined attitude to make music on their own terms. They are also the subject of a Grant Gee documentary 'Meeting People is Easy' which was made in 1998 and is perhaps less accessible than 'Joy Division'. The Nirvana story parallels the Joy Divison story. Amy Winehouse perhaps? Kate Bush and her return is a strong story. Sigur Ros and Bjork have had some original works. And Pussy Riot have done some of the suffering.

    I am currently working through a lot of rap documentaries and arguably that story or series of stories shows there have been original trends going on in black music. There's some narrative and originality with Prince, Kanye and Rihanna I would suggest.
  • Jim_McIntoshJim_McIntosh Posts: 5,866
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    Awesome band but can take a little while to grow on people. Curtis wasn't your traditional singer and the sound seemed very 'tinny' at first listening but you adjust to it.

    Best songs IMO

    Shadowplay
    New Dawn Fades
    They Walked In Line
    A Means To An End
    Novelty (*my current fave*)
    Heart And Soul

    And obviously Love Will Tear Us Apart but if you are anything like me you've probably heard that about 500 times more than any other Joy Division song.
  • bbclassicsbbclassics Posts: 7,806
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    Funnily enough I love Joy Division but have never been keen on Love will Tear us Apart, sacrilege I know.
    Gonna give the JD BBC documentary a go later in the week.

    One of my favourite songs is Dead Souls atm, can't get it out of my head.
  • shackfanshackfan Posts: 15,461
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    Atmosphere is one of the greatest tracks EVER.
  • Grim FandangoGrim Fandango Posts: 4,038
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    shackfan wrote: »
    Atmosphere is one of the greatest tracks EVER.

    I love that one. My personal favourite is probably 'Decades'.

    Superb band.
  • mgvsmithmgvsmith Posts: 16,456
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    I love 'Ceremony' which is effectively a Joy Division song covered by New Order.
  • TribecTribec Posts: 9,323
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    Really enjoyed the documentary, it may not have anything really new in it, but it was enjoyable. Shocking in many ways to know how many of them are dead, it just shouldn't be for what ever reason.
  • BenllechBenllech Posts: 2,295
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    Love Atmosphere
  • Glawster2002Glawster2002 Posts: 15,200
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    bbclassics wrote: »
    Funnily enough I love Joy Division but have never been keen on Love will Tear us Apart, sacrilege I know.
    Gonna give the JD BBC documentary a go later in the week.

    One of my favourite songs is Dead Souls atm, can't get it out of my head.

    It has never been one of my favourite Joy Division songs either.

    As others have already said, Atmosphere on the other hand I could never tire of listening too.
  • rufus oculusrufus oculus Posts: 236
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    I think the prob!em with Kraftwerk is that you will never get input from the band members to get fresh insight as you did with JD. The best this one could manage was an ancient interview with main man Ralf Hutter. They could have tried talking to ex member Karl Bartos who has a somewhat jaundiced view of the band. So the best they could do was discuss the influence of the band on what came after in music from outsiders. The doc was made in 2013 which is no problem given the glacial pace this group works at. It is pretty much up to date. The JD doc was made in 2007 which again was no real problem as I don't think there have been any fresh insights about this band since. It did of course give the impression to the casual viewer that contributor Tony Wilson was still with us which unfortunately is not the case.
  • Grim FandangoGrim Fandango Posts: 4,038
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    The Kraftwerk docu was very poor, far too much Paul Morley.
  • TribecTribec Posts: 9,323
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    I think the prob!em with Kraftwerk is that you will never get input from the band members to get fresh insight as you did with JD. The best this one could manage was an ancient interview with main man Ralf Hutter. They could have tried talking to ex member Karl Bartos who has a somewhat jaundiced view of the band. So the best they could do was discuss the influence of the band on what came after in music from outsiders. The doc was made in 2013 which is no problem given the glacial pace this group works at. It is pretty much up to date. The JD doc was made in 2007 which again was no real problem as I don't think there have been any fresh insights about this band since. It did of course give the impression to the casual viewer that contributor Tony Wilson was still with us which unfortunately is not the case.

    Whilst it didn't suggest one way or another, it didn't show either how acrimonious a relationship there is between Bernard and Hooky, which is a real shame. Hopefully one day they can put it behind them.
  • warszawawarszawa Posts: 4,437
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    Was Ian the only vocalist? It doesn't sound like him on one or two from the Substance compilation.
  • barbelerbarbeler Posts: 23,827
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    It was Ian Curtis throughout.
  • DiligentDanDiligentDan Posts: 320
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    Actually, Peter Hook usually sang the "main" lines on "Interzone" when they played it live (with Curtis singing the "in between" lines...if you know the song you'll know what I mean), although I think Curtis sings it all on the album version. Also, Sumner plays bass while Hook plays guitar on Sound of Music and Atrocity Exhibition.

    One of my favourite bands.
  • MybelleMybelle Posts: 258
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    My husband was a huge fan of Joy Division and one regret he has is never getting to see them live. After seeing the documentary he unearthed his copies of all of their music and he'd loved them so much he had the vinyl and CD versions.

    Now I know that Ian Curtis's wife wrote a book I'll hunt it out for him and get it for Fathers Day as he'll be so pleased.

    After seeing the documentary he said that he'd never found a group whose music and lyrics were as good as Joy Division until we came across another Manchester based band called Hurts. They're lyrics tend to be very dark too and they're lead singer Theo is very charismatic and my husband observed that both groups have a bigger following in Eastern Europe than over here in England.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkqzd6v4y-0


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdCSE9dNA78
  • ÆnimaÆnima Posts: 38,548
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    There are loads of original bands, you probably just haven't heard of them. Of course, being 100% original when we have decades of musical history is almost impossible, but there are certainly bands with their own sound or who have taken an older sound and adapted it. I don't think modern bands get enough credit.

    The other problem nowadays is, the moment you mention a band and say they're original, some holier than thou type will turn up to tell you how they were influenced by an earlier band. They'll then reel off a list of bands who were 'doing their sound first'.

    The issue I have with this is, I then listen to these bands and often don't think they sound anything like the band I mentioned, which just leads me to believe these people have no sense of subtlety.

    It's possible to be influenced by something else and still take the music in different directions. Most of the time, I'll have heard of these other bands that are supposed to be similar and I don't like them. I'm left thinking, they can't be that similar, otherwise I would like them too, so I'm obviously picking something up that they are not.
  • MybelleMybelle Posts: 258
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    Ænima wrote: »
    There are loads of original bands, you probably just haven't heard of them. Of course, being 100% original when we have decades of musical history is almost impossible, but there are certainly bands with their own sound or who have taken an older sound and adapted it. I don't think modern bands get enough credit.

    The other problem nowadays is, the moment you mention a band and say they're original, some holier than thou type will turn up to tell you how they were influenced by an earlier band. They'll then reel off a list of bands who were 'doing their sound first'.

    The issue I have with this is, I then listen to these bands and often don't think they sound anything like the band I mentioned, which just leads me to believe these people have no sense of subtlety.

    It's possible to be influenced by something else and still take the music in different directions. Most of the time, I'll have heard of these other bands that are supposed to be similar and I don't like them. I'm left thinking, they can't be that similar, otherwise I would like them too, so I'm obviously picking something up that they are not.

    I remember hearing an interview where someone had asked Hurts who they thought they sounded like and they replied a cross between Joy Division and Take That. That made me smile because the two are about as far apart as you can get.:p
  • ÆnimaÆnima Posts: 38,548
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    Mybelle wrote: »
    I remember hearing an interview where someone had asked Hurts who they thought they sounded like and they replied a cross between Joy Division and Take That. That made me smile because the two are about as far apart as you can get.:p

    Haha, that's exactly it isn't it, they could have incorporated two bands and come up with something completely different, despite being influenced by both. It's like saying green is the same as blue and yellow because you mixed them together.

    The band Therion are a sort of metal band that quite often use choirs. I'm sure the thought of that horrifies some people, but I was a big fan. Never heard anything quite like them then or since- similar maybe, but not the same, and of course, because they are a metal band, you'll get people saying they were influenced by Black Sabboth and they no doubt are, but do they sound like Black Sabbath? Well, not really :p
  • barbelerbarbeler Posts: 23,827
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    Ænima wrote: »
    The band Therion are a sort of metal band that quite often use choirs. I'm sure the thought of that horrifies some people, but I was a big fan. Never heard anything quite like them then or since- similar maybe, but not the same, and of course, because they are a metal band, you'll get people saying they were influenced by Black Sabboth and they no doubt are, but do they sound like Black Sabbath? Well, not really :p
    I'd never heard of them so looked them up on YouTube. I can honestly say that I can't hear even the remotest trace of Sabbath, but there is a fair bit of Muse scattered about in there.

    Not my kind of thing, but I thought they were at least ploughing their own furrow – that's until, purely out of curiosity, I looked up this symphonic metal thing and realised that they were actually in a little clan of bands that worship at the alter of Meatloaf. To be fair, I did think they were better than some of the others, such as Delain.
  • ÆnimaÆnima Posts: 38,548
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    barbeler wrote: »
    I'd never heard of them so looked them up on YouTube. I can honestly say that I can't hear even the remotest trace of Sabbath, but there is a fair bit of Muse scattered about in there.

    Haha, muse?! :p Which song was it? I think they are an older band than muse tbh.

    Have you heard of Babymetal? They're a recent thing I've listened to and can't find anything that sounds like them.

    It's sort of metal fused with j-pop :p
  • barbelerbarbeler Posts: 23,827
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    Ænima wrote: »
    Haha, muse?! :p Which song was it? I think they are an older band than muse tbh.

    Have you heard of Babymetal? They're a recent thing I've listened to and can't find anything that sounds like them.

    It's sort of metal fused with j-pop :p
    Knights of Cydonia with female voices added. I refuse to listen to anything called Babymetal :D I'm beginning to think that nearly every band is inventing its own genre, just so they can be big fish in a small pond.
  • ÆnimaÆnima Posts: 38,548
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    barbeler wrote: »
    Knights of Cydonia with female voices added. I refuse to listen to anything called Babymetal :D I'm beginning to think that nearly every band is inventing its own genre, just so they can be big fish in a small pond.

    Fair enough. I wouldn't even put them in the same genre, but then I don't want to get all stuffy about genres either, so I'll just agree to differ :)

    Ah, that's a shame, they're really crazy and different to anything I'd heard before. Thing with me is, I get bored of certain sounds so a lot of what I listen to is a bit different. I hate to be closed minded with music now, even if most of the genres I listen to involve metal in some way :p.
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