With or without Carole we still would have had grown men bringing stuffed toys in the house.
We still would have had Seanys childish antics.
What we would not have had would be the males looking to Carole as a mother/granny figure but thats not to say they would not have latched onto whoever replaced Caroles position in the house.
One person of course changes things,the butterfly effect but this does not change that the HMs were a poor selection to begin with..I doubt for example it would have altered Charleys behaviour or Chanelles tantrums.
There was far too much wrong with BB8 for any one HM to make a significent change to the direction of that particular series,from producers to HMs the show was imho damaged beyond repair.
I still think you're greatly underestimating Carole's effects on bb8. You seem to think her effect on male HMs can be reduced to "the males looking to Carole as a mother/granny figure" and that it would be the same with "whoever replaced Caroles position in the house" (as if there always was some HM or other in Carole's position).
I still think you're greatly underestimating Carole's effects on bb8. You seem to think her effect on male HMs can be reduced to "the males looking to Carole as a mother/granny figure" and that it would be the same with "whoever replaced Caroles position in the house" (as if there always was some HM or other in Carole's position).
I never said it would be the same
This is why I said "One person of course changes things,the butterfly effect but this does not change that the HMs were a poor selection to begin with.."
The original point of the Carole situation was posed in a question would BB8 have been good without Carole and the simple and straight forward answer I gave was No because there was too much wrong with the show.
I never said it would be the same
This is why I said "One person of course changes things,the butterfly effect but this does not change that the HMs were a poor selection to begin with.."
That's the wrong part of your post. My only use of "same" was when talking about this:
...
What we would not have had would be the males looking to Carole as a mother/granny figure but thats not to say they would not have latched onto whoever replaced Caroles position in the house.
...
While you didn't use the word "same" (and I didn't say you did use it), it certainly looks like you think the same thing (looking to a HM as a mother/granny figure) would have happened with "whoever replaced Caroles position in the house.".
The original point of the Carole situation was posed in a question would BB8 have been good without Carole and the simple and straight forward answer I gave was No because there was too much wrong with the show.
Yes, and that's a view I think is mistaken, for the reasons I've given.
(And I didn't have anything as subtle as "butterfly" effects in mind.)
While you didn't use the word "same" (and I didn't say you did use it), it certainly looks like you think the same thing (looking to a HM as a mother/granny figure) would have happened with "whoever replaced Caroles position in the house.".
You certainly implied it
You seem to think her effect on male HMs can be reduced to "the males looking to Carole as a mother/granny figure"and that it would be the same with "whoever replaced Caroles position in the house"
At best you are assuming,wrongly. And again you do it in your following post
it certainly looks like you think the same thing
I qualified the possibility of the males looking to another person as a mother figure with the words.. Thats not to say( they would not have latched on whoever replaced Caroles position in the house.)
which usually indicates thoughts that its certainly a possibility,are you saying its not a possibility?
If you think about it I put it out there as a possibility, nothing more.
Oh and just to answer your last part of the post in which you said,my view is mistaken because of your reasons given so far.. however they( your reasons ) do not address those things that were wrong with the show initially..things like the launch night twist,and the numerous other things that were in many peoples eyes wrong with the show...your post seems to indicate you felt like if it was not for Carole then BB8 was a good series,if that is your view then fair enough although many many FMs would disagree with that viewpoint.
Only re whether the male HMs would have looked to "whoever replaced Caroles position in the house" in the way you said they did to Carole. Not about things more generally, which is what "One person of course changes things,the butterfly effect but this does not change that the HMs were a poor selection to begin with ... " seemed to be about.
If you think about it I put it out there as a possibility, nothing more.
If you say you meant it only as a possibility, that's good enough for me.
are you saying its not a possibility?
I'm saying, or implying, that it's at least very unlikely, because there wouldn't be another HM in Carole's position. I don't think there has ever been another Carole in any series of UK BB. We sometimes get kitchen controllers, but they're minor league compared to Carole!
Oh and just to answer your last part of the post in which you said,my view is mistaken because of your reasons given so far.. however they do not address those things that were wrong with the show initially..things like the launch night twist,and the numerous other things that were in many peoples eyes wrong with the show...your post seems to indicate you felt like if it was not for Carole then BB8 was a good series,if that is your view then fair enough although many many FMs would disagree with that viewpoint.
Nothing so dogmatic. I only said yours is a view "I think is mistaken, for the reasons I've given." And as I see it, the question isn't about what many, or many, many people would think. It's whether BB8 would have been good, not whether people would have thought it was good. But people will forgive large faults in a series if it gets a certain few things 'right'. (See the bb7 discussions for an example.) And many, many people though Carole killed the fun in bb8. Presumably they at least think there would have been much more fun if she hadn't been picked.
Anyway, I don't think everything about bb8 was good except Carole, but Carole had a huge effect on bb8. For example, if forum reports are correct, the HM didn't even know what time it was because of her covering the cooker's clock. That's at least the sort of thing that's believable because of what a manipulative, controlling character she was.
But except for Carole, yes. Take Carole out of it, and many things would be very different.
Anyway, I don't think everything about bb8 was good except Carole, but Carole had a huge effect on bb8. For example, if forum reports are correct, the HM didn't even know what time it was because of her covering the cooker's clock. That's at least the sort of thing that's believable because of what a manipulative, controlling character she was.
But except for Carole, yes. Take Carole out of it, and many things would be very different.
Yes many things would have been different..no doubt about it,she was such a dominating figure,I just dont think it would have been a good series with or without her...more watchable without her for sure but it still would have gone down as the worst series imo.
For me it was more a case of the combination of terrible HMs and poor ideas from producers,after the awful launch twist we had a slow drip feed of men,the men all seemed pretty weak..what was Liams role,what did we get from Ziggy apart from the annoying showmance,does anyone even remember David,and lets not forget the male version of Jade Brian..he may not have been a bully but he clearly played on the dumb act like Jade especially in the DR.
Yes many things would have been different..no doubt about it,she was such a dominating figure,I just dont think it would have been a good series with or without her...more watchable without her for sure but it still would have gone down as the worst series imo.
For me it was more a case of the combination of terrible HMs and poor ideas from producers,after the awful launch twist we had a slow drip feed of men,the men all seemed pretty weak..what was Liams role,what did we get from Ziggy apart from the annoying showmance,does anyone even remember David,and lets not forget the male version of Jade Brian..he may not have been a bully but he clearly played on the dumb act like Jade especially in the DR.
I don't want to go much further into bb8 here when there's a recent thread, [thread=1351050]Are we agreed that BB8 was the worst series?[/thread], that's already done so, but I thought the launch twist was good, and certainly better than most initial twists. Re the housemates, I think you're assuming they'd be much the same if Carole were out of the picture. I think the HMs would have been stronger, more interesting, and more entertaining if Carole hadn't been there, grinding them down; and different ones would have been evicted at different times. I don't think Chanelle would have walked, or become so tied to Ziggy; Charley wouldn't have had Carole's support; Nicky might have lived up to her potential, rather than being so negative; and so on.
Her influence was pervasive. She distorted everything. Remember that Carole even affected how the HMs thought about everything BB did. Such things as the poisonous belief that Laura hadn't really been evicted might never have taken hold without Carole.
Of course, there were some other poor HMs too, such as Tracey. But most series have some poor HMs.
Apologies for bring back a two year old thread but...
...What if Hazel had been evicted instead of Wolfy? Obviously we would have not had Daley losing it to her, amazing what one less housemate does for the dynamics of the show.
Apologies for bring back a two year old thread but...
...What if Hazel had been evicted instead of Wolfy? Obviously we would have not had Daley losing it to her, amazing what one less housemates does for the dynamics of the show.
Sallie would have been evicted the next week. But I assume you mean the impact of Gina's loss. Well, without her turnaround she would have been viewed as just another gobby female with barely an redeeming qualities. Dexter would still be the main focus from an entertainment point of view though I imagine he would continue on from the lonesome figure he cut on week ! & 2 up until the SH twist.
Comments
This is why I said
"One person of course changes things,the butterfly effect but this does not change that the HMs were a poor selection to begin with.."
The original point of the Carole situation was posed in a question would BB8 have been good without Carole and the simple and straight forward answer I gave was No because there was too much wrong with the show.
While you didn't use the word "same" (and I didn't say you did use it), it certainly looks like you think the same thing (looking to a HM as a mother/granny figure) would have happened with "whoever replaced Caroles position in the house.".
Yes, and that's a view I think is mistaken, for the reasons I've given.
(And I didn't have anything as subtle as "butterfly" effects in mind.)
You seem to think her effect on male HMs can be reduced to "the males looking to Carole as a mother/granny figure"and that it would be the same with "whoever replaced Caroles position in the house"
At best you are assuming,wrongly. And again you do it in your following post
it certainly looks like you think the same thing
I qualified the possibility of the males looking to another person as a mother figure with the words.. Thats not to say( they would not have latched on whoever replaced Caroles position in the house.)
which usually indicates thoughts that its certainly a possibility,are you saying its not a possibility?
If you think about it I put it out there as a possibility, nothing more.
Oh and just to answer your last part of the post in which you said,my view is mistaken because of your reasons given so far.. however they( your reasons ) do not address those things that were wrong with the show initially..things like the launch night twist,and the numerous other things that were in many peoples eyes wrong with the show...your post seems to indicate you felt like if it was not for Carole then BB8 was a good series,if that is your view then fair enough although many many FMs would disagree with that viewpoint.
If you say you meant it only as a possibility, that's good enough for me.
I'm saying, or implying, that it's at least very unlikely, because there wouldn't be another HM in Carole's position. I don't think there has ever been another Carole in any series of UK BB. We sometimes get kitchen controllers, but they're minor league compared to Carole!
Nothing so dogmatic. I only said yours is a view "I think is mistaken, for the reasons I've given." And as I see it, the question isn't about what many, or many, many people would think. It's whether BB8 would have been good, not whether people would have thought it was good. But people will forgive large faults in a series if it gets a certain few things 'right'. (See the bb7 discussions for an example.) And many, many people though Carole killed the fun in bb8. Presumably they at least think there would have been much more fun if she hadn't been picked.
Anyway, I don't think everything about bb8 was good except Carole, but Carole had a huge effect on bb8. For example, if forum reports are correct, the HM didn't even know what time it was because of her covering the cooker's clock. That's at least the sort of thing that's believable because of what a manipulative, controlling character she was.
But except for Carole, yes. Take Carole out of it, and many things would be very different.
For me it was more a case of the combination of terrible HMs and poor ideas from producers,after the awful launch twist we had a slow drip feed of men,the men all seemed pretty weak..what was Liams role,what did we get from Ziggy apart from the annoying showmance,does anyone even remember David,and lets not forget the male version of Jade Brian..he may not have been a bully but he clearly played on the dumb act like Jade especially in the DR.
Her influence was pervasive. She distorted everything. Remember that Carole even affected how the HMs thought about everything BB did. Such things as the poisonous belief that Laura hadn't really been evicted might never have taken hold without Carole.
Of course, there were some other poor HMs too, such as Tracey. But most series have some poor HMs.
...What if Hazel had been evicted instead of Wolfy? Obviously we would have not had Daley losing it to her, amazing what one less housemate does for the dynamics of the show.
What if Gina had gone instead of Sally
Sallie would have been evicted the next week. But I assume you mean the impact of Gina's loss. Well, without her turnaround she would have been viewed as just another gobby female with barely an redeeming qualities. Dexter would still be the main focus from an entertainment point of view though I imagine he would continue on from the lonesome figure he cut on week ! & 2 up until the SH twist.
What if Helen had not got the free pass to the final? She would have likely been out the first week.