Is there any justification for airlines charging to prebook seats ?

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  • Steveaustin316Steveaustin316 Posts: 15,779
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    Do they need any justification? An airline is a business who's main priority is to make a profit.
  • Justin AerialJustin Aerial Posts: 5,710
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    Do they need any justification? An airline is a business who's main priority is to make a profit.

    I run my own business, I feel I have to justify my procedures to my customers. Maybe I just have a less arrogant attitude to my customers........
  • Justin AerialJustin Aerial Posts: 5,710
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    dearmrman wrote: »
    CAA Guidelines:

    Family Groups

    CAA guidelines ask airlines to develop procedures for the seat allocation of family groups, particularly when a group includes children. It is probable that family group members would seek each other out should an emergency evacuation be required, an action that could adversely affect the passenger flow rates towards emergency exits and might seriously affect the outcome of an evacuation.

    Additionally, children and infants should be seated where they can be adequately supervised by an accompanying adult in the event of turbulence or a decompression in the cabin.

    Airlines procedures should take into account the following factors:

    Children, accompanied by adults, should ideally be seated in the same seat row as the adult. In wide-bodied aircraft, children and accompanying adults should not be separated by more than one aisle. Where this is not possible, children should be separated by no more than one seat row from accompanying adults.

    Seat allocation procedures for family groups and suitable seating arrangements for large parties of children should reflect the above criteria.

    Whenever small numbers of infants and children are travelling together, the airline should make every effort to ensure that they are allocated seats where they can be readily supervised by the responsible accompanying adult in both normal and abnormal conditions.


    I don't pre book seats, and don't moan either if I am separated from the family, it's my choice not to pay.

    A very interesting reply, the first bit anyway !
    I moan about being charged for nothing. As I said above I feel I have to justify my charges and procedures to my customers, why should the bleedin` airlines (or any other business come to that) feel they don`t have to ? As an example sometimes my customers appear unhappy with our carriage charges, I feel I have to point out to them (nicely, I hasten to add) that the carrier actually charges us more than what we`re charging them ! Generally they`re happier once they`ve heard that. The thing is an airline could not justify their charges for prebooking of seats because there is no justification (it costs them nothing at all) other than they want to extract as much money from me as possible and they don`t care whether I`m unhappy about it
  • tim59tim59 Posts: 47,188
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    I run my own business, I feel I have to justify my procedures to my customers. Maybe I just have a less arrogant attitude to my customers........

    Big buisness is about screwing every penny you can get away with out of the customers, to keep the shareholders happy. Corner the markets the customers dont have a choice but to pay.
  • dearmrmandearmrman Posts: 21,408
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    I run my own business, I feel I have to justify my procedures to my customers. Maybe I just have a less arrogant attitude to my customers........

    You don't need to justify anything, you are a business and are there to make money...people these days just see that any money you take is all profit, they forget all the overheads that come with running a business.
  • jsmith99jsmith99 Posts: 20,382
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    My recent experience with Ryanair suggests that it is not your choice and that it is a rip-off.

    Up to recently, Ryanair let you check-in on-line up to 15 days in advance, so for a 7-14 day trip, you do outward and return before you go. Seat allocation was available, but it was optional; so far so good.

    Now on this trip, I found you could check-in up to 30 days before; great! Until I read the small print: this is only possible if you've booked a seat! Otherwise you can only check-in 7 days and 2 hours before travel. My return leg was 7 days and 6 hours after leaving home, so I had to pay £5 for a seat. Othewise it would have been a nightmare to try and find a working internet cafe during my trip, if they still exist, and that had a working printer.

    This is certainly a recent problem with Ryanair. Aren't they working on (or already provide) an app to send you the boarding pass, which is acceptable to security? Admittedly, this is more likely to be acceptable at UK airports than at some foreign ones.

    However, where would you be going where access to a wifi and a printer would be difficult to obtain at a hotel, restaurant, bar, etc?
  • bart4858bart4858 Posts: 11,406
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    jsmith99 wrote: »
    This is certainly a recent problem with Ryanair. Aren't they working on (or already provide) an app to send you the boarding pass, which is acceptable to security? Admittedly, this is more likely to be acceptable at UK airports than at some foreign ones.

    However, where would you be going where access to a wifi and a printer would be difficult to obtain at a hotel, restaurant, bar, etc?

    There's plenty of WiFi about, but you still have to search it out. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Or it part-works by being so slow and unresponsive as to be useless. Or you need to pay for it.

    And you still need to have a working, charged gadget with you; not everyone has, or wants to take it with them.

    Also, how many bars and restaurants have you been to that will have a working printer for you to print boarding passes out on? Assuming there is some way of accessing it from your device.

    (I think now being able to display a boarding pass on a tablet can be acceptable, but again you need a working tablet and to manage to get a connection long enough to get this stuff done. I don't have a tablet that I'd want to take with me (it's for the kids).)

    The whole thing turns into an IT exercise instead of a pleasant few days off. Why do you think Ryanair specifically chose a 7 day and 2 hour cutoff point? Because with 8 days, most people could just print their return boarding passes in the comfort of their home, and not have to pay £5 or £10 for an allocated seat because it is done for you.
  • jsmith99jsmith99 Posts: 20,382
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    bart4858 wrote: »
    There's plenty of WiFi about, but you still have to search it out. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Or it part-works by being so slow and unresponsive as to be useless. Or you need to pay for it................................

    The whole thing turns into an IT exercise instead of a pleasant few days off. Why do you think Ryanair specifically chose a 7 day and 2 hour cutoff point? Because with 8 days, most people could just print their return boarding passes in the comfort of their home, and not have to pay £5 or £10 for an allocated seat because it is done for you.

    I've used wifi on a tablet with no problems in North Cyprus, Crete, Barcelona and Italy in the last 18 months. Virtually every place we popped into for a drink had a "Free Wifi" sign.

    Incidentally, it's not 7hr 2days cutoff, it's between 7 days and 2 hours before the flight.

    http://www.ryanair.com/en/need-to-know/online-checkin/

    But yes, I agree it's naughty of Ryanair. Though one airline I flew with recently, Thomas Cook, has an even tighter OLCI slot:
    Thomas Cook Airlines are pleased to be the UK's first Charter airline to offer online check-in to our passengers.
    Online check-in opens 48 hours prior to your flight departure and closes 24 hours before your flight departure.

    so you have to hope there's no problem with your boarding pass.

    On the other hand, TC allow you to book seats within a few hours of making a booking.

    Personally, I regard the relatively small charge for booking seats as just part of the overall holiday cost. I'm going on holiday by myself in a couple of months, so I may book an extra legroom seat, just to annoy tall people. :)
  • Justin AerialJustin Aerial Posts: 5,710
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    dearmrman wrote: »
    You don't need to justify anything, you are a business and are there to make money...people these days just see that any money you take is all profit, they forget all the overheads that come with running a business.

    But I do feel I have to justify my procedures and charges to customers, it`s called keeping the customer happy = basic (good) business. But it`s a bit more than that to me, I genuinely appreciate every customer we have and don`t want to **** them off. The airlines, it would seem, don`t feel the same way.
    On the other hand virtually everyone hated Ryan Air, yet they were (don`t think they still are.....) one of the fastest growing airlines in the world, one of the great mysteries of the world. Or perhaps it isn`t, it may just be there are loads of people out there to whom the (lowest) price is everything.
  • Justin AerialJustin Aerial Posts: 5,710
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    dearmrman wrote: »
    CAA Guidelines:

    Family Groups

    CAA guidelines ask airlines to develop procedures for the seat allocation of family groups, particularly when a group includes children. It is probable that family group members would seek each other out should an emergency evacuation be required, an action that could adversely affect the passenger flow rates towards emergency exits and might seriously affect the outcome of an evacuation..

    That makes sense to me. If I was sat separately from my wife and/or child and there was an emergency I`d be heading straight for them rather than an emergency exit, I suspect many people would, it`s a natural human reaction.
    So here we have it. Charging (i.e. discouraging) family members to sit together is putting profit before safety, and, it would seem, it contravenes CAA guidelines.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 500
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    The stuff about business class charging extra to pre book is rubbish.

    Scheduled airlines mostly allow you to pre choose your seat 24 hours prior, when you check in. If you want to choose your seat earlier, then they will charge you. This also depends on what ticket price you paid and if you have a frequent flyer card at a certain level.

    Low costs will pre charge you or you get allocated when you checkin or when your on the flight.

    But the rules change frequently, you will get a seat, but they will make money if you want to choose and be selective earlier in economy.
  • dearmrmandearmrman Posts: 21,408
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    But I do feel I have to justify my procedures and charges to customers, it`s called keeping the customer happy = basic (good) business. But it`s a bit more than that to me, I genuinely appreciate every customer we have and don`t want to **** them off. The airlines, it would seem, don`t feel the same way.
    On the other hand virtually everyone hated Ryan Air, yet they were (don`t think they still are.....) one of the fastest growing airlines in the world, one of the great mysteries of the world. Or perhaps it isn`t, it may just be there are loads of people out there to whom the (lowest) price is everything.

    Correct, people don't care about service, not like they used to, they only care about the bottom price, you can give the best customer service experience in the world, but if they are shopping around it will mean squat...price is what they want...those people are worst kind. They can't be bothered to do their own research, they use other peoples expertise and then try and find a better price, and they are never honest in their motives either, they don't tell you up front what their intentions are.
  • Justin AerialJustin Aerial Posts: 5,710
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    dearmrman wrote: »
    Correct, people don't care about service, not like they used to, they only care about the bottom price, you can give the best customer service experience in the world, but if they are shopping around it will mean squat...price is what they want...those people are worst kind. They can't be bothered to do their own research, they use other peoples expertise and then try and find a better price, and they are never honest in their motives either, they don't tell you up front what their intentions are.

    I agree with you 100%, but don`t get me on that DM, we`ll be here all night !
  • Justin AerialJustin Aerial Posts: 5,710
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    pac_girl wrote: »
    The stuff about business class charging extra to pre book is rubbish.

    When I last looked into it, admittedly in 2010, the cost to pre book a business class seat on British Airways was £60 per seat per flight. I was so incredulous I actually wrote to BA to check this really was the case and inform them I`d never fly BA business class if it was. They wrote back to me and confirmed it was. Are you saying that BA have relented on this appalling and short sighted policy ? They certainly should have done.
  • ste likes boobsste likes boobs Posts: 677
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    Must just be UK airlines. None of the North American Airlines I've used recently have charged me for exit row seats. And I always ask for exit row seats.
  • Justin AerialJustin Aerial Posts: 5,710
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    Must just be UK airlines. None of the North American Airlines I've used recently have charged me for exit row seats. And I always ask for exit row seats.

    We flew Croation Airlines in October 2012 and weren`t charged any extra for exit row seats, I asked for them and incredibly we got them both ways ! I was astounded, ! ! I`m never usually that lucky.
    However, I`m not actually complaining too much about being charged for booking extra leg room seats, what incenses me is to be charged extra just to choose which (standard legroom) seat you can sit in.....
  • dearmrmandearmrman Posts: 21,408
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    When I last looked into it, admittedly in 2010, the cost to pre book a business class seat on British Airways was £60 per seat per flight. I was so incredulous I actually wrote to BA to check this really was the case and inform them I`d never fly BA business class if it was. They wrote back to me and confirmed it was. Are you saying that BA have relented on this appalling and short sighted policy ? They certainly should have done.

    No you still pay for seats on BA in business class, with the odd exception, and applies to economy as well:-

    Seats are free to pre book if you are:

    Gold Executive Club Member

    Silver Member - Not Exit row seats

    Bronze Member - 7 days in advance and not exit rows

    Blue Member - 24 Hours in advance, online check in.

    also if you hold a fully flexible ticket (the price of which would probably make most people cry, even for an economy fare)

    and last but not least

    families with an infant.
  • JulesandSandJulesandSand Posts: 6,010
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    We recently flew with BA from Edinburgh to Denver with BA, with a change at Heathrow. We flew business class on the London to Denver leg and were asked to pay to pre-book seats but on the economy leg from Edinburgh to London, seat selection was free which seems daft.
  • jsmith99jsmith99 Posts: 20,382
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    ........................On the other hand virtually everyone hated Ryan Air, yet they were (don`t think they still are.....) one of the fastest growing airlines in the world, one of the great mysteries of the world. ......................

    Where do you get the information from that everyone hated Ryanair? They're one of the top airlines in the world on passenger numbers, and carried about 80million passengers last year.

    If you read TripAdvisor's Air Travel forum, many people post on there because of things like misspelled names on tickets. Obviously, they're told to contact RA's customer services, and they usually come back thrilled at the service they've had, at no cost.

    Yes, RyanAir have some very strict policies, and it's easy to incur extra costs. But all information, charges, fees, baggage rules are available before you commit to a booking. In addition, their planes are usually among the newest in the world.

    Not to mention that they're a bit geographically challenged when it comes to airport names, but again that's something you can check before booking.
  • dearmrmandearmrman Posts: 21,408
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    jsmith99 wrote: »
    Where do you get the information from that everyone hated Ryanair? They're one of the top airlines in the world on passenger numbers, and carried about 80million passengers last year.

    If you read TripAdvisor's Air Travel forum, many people post on there because of things like misspelled names on tickets. Obviously, they're told to contact RA's customer services, and they usually come back thrilled at the service they've had, at no cost.

    Yes, RyanAir have some very strict policies, and it's easy to incur extra costs. But all information, charges, fees, baggage rules are available before you commit to a booking. In addition, their planes are usually among the newest in the world.

    Not to mention that they're a bit geographically challenged when it comes to airport names, but again that's something you can check before booking.

    They are one of the top airlines because of cost and nothing else, they are a crap airline, flown with them once and will never fly with them again.

    Skytrax votes them a 2 star airline (quite surprised they managed 2 stars tbh)

    But to qualify for a 2 star rating you need to reach the following criteria:-

    The 2-Star Airline Rating is awarded to airlines delivering a poor Quality performance, below the industry Quality average across the rating sectors.

    A 2-Star Airline rating normally signifies a poor standard of Product and/or poor and inconsistent standards of Staff Service delivery in the Onboard or Airport environments.


    So as long as it's cheap people will pay for crap.
  • jeffiner1892jeffiner1892 Posts: 14,202
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    jsmith99 wrote: »
    Yes, RyanAir have some very strict policies, and it's easy to incur extra costs. But all information, charges, fees, baggage rules are available before you commit to a booking.

    Which is why I always end up so surprised that people say about the hidden costs, they're all there on the page in front.

    That thing about the allocated seats annoys me though, if I end up next to a screaming child when I choose my own seat for free what am I going to end up next to if they allocate me a seat?
  • Justin AerialJustin Aerial Posts: 5,710
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    Which is why I always end up so surprised that people say about the hidden costs, they're all there on the page in front.

    That thing about the allocated seats annoys me though, if I end up next to a screaming child when I choose my own seat for free what am I going to end up next to if they allocate me a seat?

    It depends what you mean by hidden costs. To me if a business advertises a product at a price then (apart from obvious extras, e.g. upgrading to premium economy) that`s what I expect to pay. If I have to pay more than the advertised price then by definition they`re hidden costs. Back in 2011 we were thinking of flying Ryan Air back from Marrakech, not because of their price but simply because their flight time was the most convenient. We looked at the price which seemed cheap, but then as we trawled through their booking form everything was extra, absolutely sodding everything, even some unbelievably high charge to pay by debit card which actually costs them about 20p. We had a query about purchasing an extra seat and being guaranteed all three would be together* and tried to phone them, at a premium rate call I seem to remember (which always annoys me, I`m a customer enquiring about a company`s service with a view to spending money with them ! ) and we were left on hold so long I just gave up. We flew Thomson in the end.

    * There`s not much point booking an extra seat so we get some extra space if it ends up being next to someone else !
  • ElCantoDelLocoElCantoDelLoco Posts: 6,637
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    How can airlines justify charging for pre booking seats ? I read somewhere that British Airways even charge £50 to prebook a seat if you pay thousands of pounds to fly business class ! Needless to say we`d never fly BA business class out of principle, it`d kill me to give them an extra £50 when I`d paid them thousands for the seat.
    But does it really cost the airlines anything to prebook seats ? I`d have thought it in their interests to have groups sat together, certainly if they`re travelling with a child. For instance we`re going to Tenerife with our 2 year old, if we didn`t pre book our seats and our little terror ended up sat away from both of us would the person sat next to him be required to look after him for 4 hours ! Good luck with that one......

    You wouldn't do that, one of you would sit with him and the other take the single seat? :confused: With three kids, we never had any choice but split up anyway even if we pre-booked (which you couldn't do on the budget airlines then), it was just a question of who went with who - and getting there early enough to get a whole block of 3 seats of course :D

    I'd only ever flown with the budget airlines so adding in the option of booking seats is an extra to me and therefore has a value (not that I'd chose to pay it now there are only the 2 of us flying and getting 2 seats together is fine as long as you're not too late), we went with BA recently and they let you book seats for free in the check-in online period and you only had to pay to book a seat earlier

    At the end of the day it's driven by the market though and if no one paid, they'd drop the charge!
  • MinkinitMinkinit Posts: 446
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    The better way to look a the cost of pre booked seats, if it really gets you angry, is that the airline has reduced the cost of each passenger ticket by £15.00 or so, if they choose not to pre book.
  • jsmith99jsmith99 Posts: 20,382
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    It depends what you mean by hidden costs. To me if a business advertises a product at a price then (apart from obvious extras, e.g. upgrading to premium economy) that`s what I expect to pay. If I have to pay more than the advertised price then by definition they`re hidden costs. ........................

    You're free to make the journey, with hand luggage, at the advertised cost if you wish. These days, even the admin cost must be included in the basic fare. If you want to take hold luggage, have a meal (if that option is available), book seats, book extra legroom seats or anything else, it's available at a charge which you can see beg=fore you commit.

    The point is that you don't have to pay more than the advertised price.
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