Nowhere near the same level as Messi? Perhaps we watched different world cups last year. David Villa looked like he was playing a different sport to Messi, let alone being in a whole different league.
I watched Messi and Villa at the World Cup and in La Liga and I can pretty much say, without question the better of the two players is Messi. The difference at the WC is that Villa was surrounded by one of the best Spanish sides there has been in their history, whereas Messi was in an Argie team with potential that was wasted by Maradona.
Of course there are phenomenal players like George Best born in small countries who never get the chance on the big stage, but Messi and Rooney don't have this excuse. Okay England are pretty crap but Rooney was still on the pitch for four games in South Africa and did absolutely nothing, you can't blame that on Northern Ireland.
So what's the cut off? Best has never won a WC but that's OK because he came from a small country but Messi comes from Argentina, so he can't be world class without it. You can't make the conditions for world class status based on WC contribution arbitrarily different for players and then not expect to be called on your inconsistencies.
So they may not play for the likes of a tiny state like Monaco or San Marino but that doesn't negate the fact that the likes of Messi and Rooney are just single players in a team, and no matter how brilliant a single player is, they can't drag the rest of the team through the competition. Rooney and Messi can only do so much - if they're playing in a system that they don't fit in, or they are just having shitty luck, or the rest of the tea aren't pulling their weight, they're not getting the delivery they need to get that final shot or whatever, that doesn't mean they aren't a great player, it just means that their team, as a whole, aren't good enough in that competition.
Where did I say I was ruling Messi out because he's playing in a crap Argie team. I'm ruling him out because he was that crap Argie team's crappest player.:)
He really wasn't their crappest player, not by a long shot at this WC
PS Swiensteiger isn't a forward and created a few German goals. It ain't all about scoring.
Thomas Müller, Mesut Özil, Sami Khedira, Luksa Podolski and Arne Friedrich are all players who helped set up goals as well as scoring them and none of those are strikers either ... and of that list, Schweinsteiger included, Mesut is the standout player for me, hence why he was nominated for the Golden Ball Award for the WC
Perhaps I see things differently to most footie fans, but to me the England team (same in Rugby Union) is the be all and end all of my love for football. i have a neutral's passing interest in club matters, but it's all about the world cup and to a lesser extent the Euros.
Ah, now it makes sense, you basically judge players' performances based on international competition rather than their whole performances for club and country.
Any English player that performs for England in the world cup deserves to be called a legend, Linker, Owen, Platt, Gasciogn etc those who don't (however gifted the may be) Hoddle, Rooney, Keegan, are forgettable also-rans.
So what is your criteria for "performing"? Scoring goals? Turning up? Setting up goals? Not getting carded? Your criteria seems to be very arbitrary and very inconsistent tbqh
World Cups are not the be all and end all of football - a gifted player is still a gifted and amazing player even if they have a shit World Cup.
And vice versa of your last comment Mel. How many mediocre players have a blinding WC then get snapped up by a team only to go back to being mediocre domestically.
Did I at any point say that Messi is world class. I compared Rooney to Michael Owen who had one great world cup (98) and one pretty good world cup (2002).
And yes, some of us still use the world Cup as the ultimate barometer for 'world class'. The biggest stage, the biggest prize, the biggest opposition.
It exposes no such flaw in my argument.
Messi is the best player in the world, according to whom? I seem to remember a player by the name of David Villa who didn't spend the last world cup looking completely lost and out of his depth. So too Wesley Snieder and (bad spelling warning) Sebastien Shweinstieger.
If looking out of your depth in a world cup makes a player world class, can I have 200 thousand euros a week please?
Maradonna was the best player in the world and won a world cup, so too was Zidane, so too was Bobby Charlton, so too was Lothar Mateas, so too was Pele, see a trend here?
Messi is a great club player, one day maybe he'll be a great international player (it's not too late for Rooney either) but a true great of the caliber of the names I've mentioned, not even close.
Oh my god, you really are saying that Messi is not world class aren't you?:D
It exposes no such flaw in my argument.
Messi is the best player in the world, according to whom?
Your entire argument is one huge flaw. You ask who believes Messi is the best player in the world?
Aside from almost anyone who watches football outside of every other summer, what about the FIFA World Player of the year/Ballon D'Or he's won the last two years, the FIFPro World Player of the Year award he's won the last two years (voted for by his peers), the UEFA Best Player in Europe Award he absolutely walked, and any other number of awards.
So in conclusion, fans, journalists, managers and players believe Messi is the best player in the world. But what would they know? He didn't excel for a couple of games last June, right?
Perhaps I see things differently to most footie fans, but to me the England team (same in Rugby Union) is the be all and end all of my love for football.
This is not a criticism as such, I'm genuinely perplexed.
A thread started as "not a criticism" as such turns into exactly that.
It is also claimed that Messi is not world class based on a handful of games in the course of a career yet Schillaci and Milla merit the description fully.
'This is not a criticism' followed by a quite obvious criticism. The idea that a player's worth can be strictly defined by a rapid-fire succession of games every couple of years is a bizarre one to say the least. As someone has mentioned, Messi was below his usual standards in 2010; would anyone question him in any way?
It's even more bizarre when we're not even assessing performances, but simply whether they scored or not.
Messi, for instance, actually played quite well at the World Cup, he just didn't score. He certainly played better than Ronaldo, who did score (a pretty strange goal at that against North Korea).
Judging a player entirely by their goalscoring record is a nonsense at the best of times, far less when it's only covering a handful of games.
Comments
I watched Messi and Villa at the World Cup and in La Liga and I can pretty much say, without question the better of the two players is Messi. The difference at the WC is that Villa was surrounded by one of the best Spanish sides there has been in their history, whereas Messi was in an Argie team with potential that was wasted by Maradona.
So what's the cut off? Best has never won a WC but that's OK because he came from a small country but Messi comes from Argentina, so he can't be world class without it. You can't make the conditions for world class status based on WC contribution arbitrarily different for players and then not expect to be called on your inconsistencies.
So they may not play for the likes of a tiny state like Monaco or San Marino but that doesn't negate the fact that the likes of Messi and Rooney are just single players in a team, and no matter how brilliant a single player is, they can't drag the rest of the team through the competition. Rooney and Messi can only do so much - if they're playing in a system that they don't fit in, or they are just having shitty luck, or the rest of the tea aren't pulling their weight, they're not getting the delivery they need to get that final shot or whatever, that doesn't mean they aren't a great player, it just means that their team, as a whole, aren't good enough in that competition.
He really wasn't their crappest player, not by a long shot at this WC
Thomas Müller, Mesut Özil, Sami Khedira, Luksa Podolski and Arne Friedrich are all players who helped set up goals as well as scoring them and none of those are strikers either ... and of that list, Schweinsteiger included, Mesut is the standout player for me, hence why he was nominated for the Golden Ball Award for the WC
Ah, now it makes sense, you basically judge players' performances based on international competition rather than their whole performances for club and country.
So what is your criteria for "performing"? Scoring goals? Turning up? Setting up goals? Not getting carded? Your criteria seems to be very arbitrary and very inconsistent tbqh
World Cups are not the be all and end all of football - a gifted player is still a gifted and amazing player even if they have a shit World Cup.
He was injured for both of them.
What if your team you play for are terrible?
Oh my god, you really are saying that Messi is not world class aren't you?:D
I hate the guy, but even I can admit that Messi's a world class player
Do 'some of us' therefore believe Oleg Salenko to be a better forward than George Weah?
It's an incredibly faulty barometer that excludes 99% of football.
Your entire argument is one huge flaw. You ask who believes Messi is the best player in the world?
Aside from almost anyone who watches football outside of every other summer, what about the FIFA World Player of the year/Ballon D'Or he's won the last two years, the FIFPro World Player of the Year award he's won the last two years (voted for by his peers), the UEFA Best Player in Europe Award he absolutely walked, and any other number of awards.
So in conclusion, fans, journalists, managers and players believe Messi is the best player in the world. But what would they know? He didn't excel for a couple of games last June, right?
And apparently, knowledge of it.
A thread started as "not a criticism" as such turns into exactly that.
It is also claimed that Messi is not world class based on a handful of games in the course of a career yet Schillaci and Milla merit the description fully.
That makes two of us who are genuinely perplexed.
It's even more bizarre when we're not even assessing performances, but simply whether they scored or not.
Messi, for instance, actually played quite well at the World Cup, he just didn't score. He certainly played better than Ronaldo, who did score (a pretty strange goal at that against North Korea).
Judging a player entirely by their goalscoring record is a nonsense at the best of times, far less when it's only covering a handful of games.