What seemed to start Lucy off yesterday - of what we saw anyway was Amy asking Vincent if she could use his hammock.
She's got an actual bed in the tree house, it seemed a bit cheeky to me. 'I'd rather sleep here in your bed if you don't mind'
Not a big thing in itself, but it irritated me a bit and seemed to have annoyed Lucy.
I'm not saying Amy 'is a bitch', or that Lucy 'is a bitch', mind.
I find Lucy acerbic, gets too irritated and snappy, but is generally supportive and helpful.
Amy seems a decent enough girl, but the evidence we have points to that she is lazy, and the request to Vincent (and how she said it) demonstrates some level of 'entitlement'.
So you expect Amy to use Vincent's hammock without asking??
You're leaving out something very crucial above imo, and that is personality/behaviour. I would no more judge any woman solely on looks/career that I would any man. While I can objectively see that someone might be very good-looking, male or female, I can't separate personality/behaviour from physical appearance and it's the former I 'judge' people on. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that.
As an example, David, although objectively not the fittest male in there or the most adonis-like is nevertheless by far the most attractive male in there for me because of his very appealing personality.
The post doesn't say it's solely on looks/career. It even says straight out that "it's not all about looks, far from it, more a combination of factors of which attractiveness is one".
It even mentions factors of personality and behaviour; so no, it hasn't left them out.
BTW, did you really mean you "can't separate personality/behaviour from physical appearance and it's the former I 'judge' people on." I'm guessing you mean you can separate. But how do you know? How do you know you're completely uninfluenced by looks when observing personality and behaviour?
I don't think anyone can know that; and I think there's a lot of evidence that people are influenced by looks, including in ways they're not aware of.
(Your example doesn't show anything contrary to what I've said, and it even suggests that you don't keep looks -- or at least attractiveness -- and personality separate.)
Then perhaps that's her problem: she wants everyone else to be like her, at least if they're female.
Most likely she does a lot because she likes doing a lot, or needs it to pass the time. She should be glad that she has an opportunity to do a lot and not resent those who happen not to be energiser bunnies.
I find this argument - she chose it she must love it - a little facile.
I chose to be a mother, I still get hacked off when my daughter doesn't tidy up or help as much as she should.
Some people take a lot on at work, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't LIKE some help and appreciation and don't get a bit cheesed off.
Forthright, practical and helpful team players are actually human beings, they expect a bit of help, even though they may be happy to do a lot of the work.
You're leaving out something very crucial above imo, and that is personality/behaviour. I would no more judge any woman solely on looks/career that I would any man. While I can objectively see that someone might be very good-looking, male or female, I can't separate personality/behaviour from physical appearance and it's the former I 'judge' people on. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that.
As an example, David, although objectively not the fittest male in there or the most adonis-like is nevertheless by far the most attractive male in there for me because of his very appealing personality.
I was almost with you up until you said David was the most attractive man.... .;)
Don't get me wrong, I do not think that you are one of the female posters on DS I would say do the unfair judgement thing. For the record, I have included personality and behaviour several times when referring to the type of woman that generally get's the disproportionate 'hate' before on here and those that don't.
I'm not sure how many more times I can say it's NOT just about looks, but it's certainly a contributing factor.
I was almost with you up until you said David was the most attractive man.... .;)
Don't get me wrong, you are definitely NOT one of the female posters on DS I would say do the unfair judgement thing. For the record, I have included personality and behaviour several times when referring to the type of woman that generally get's the disproportionate 'hate' before on here and those that don't.
I'm not sure how many more times I can say it's NOT just about looks, but it's certainly a contributing factor.
Really, I don't think we're disagreeing at all in the broader sense, just quibbling over specific criticism of specific people in specific circumstances. I'm not suggesting that I'm right and you're wrong - not at all - just acknowledging that at times, what I see as rational and valid criticism, I feel you see as evidence of something bigger and more hostile. Maybe you're right, maybe it is? But I can only comment on how it comes across to me and deal with it on an individual basis rather than as a whole, if you follow me.
I'm going to ignore your slur on my David and put it down to your knowing in your (jealous) heart that that Jungle throne is 100% and rightly David-shaped.
I find this argument - she chose it she must love it - a little facile.
I chose to be a mother, I still get hacked off when my daughter doesn't tidy up or help as much as she should.
Some people take a lot on at work, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't LIKE some help and appreciation and don't get a bit cheesed off.
Forthright, practical and helpful team players are actually human beings, they expect a bit of help, even though they may be happy to do a lot of the work.
I completely agree! The work she and a few of the others do, whether they chose to take it on themselves or not, is work that is vital and has to be done by someone, it would just be fairer and make for a more pleasant atmosphere if everyone lent a hand, even if some do more than others. But as a viewer I have strong suspicions that there are one or two who would be happy to sit back and let others do it all, and that is bound to cause resentment.
What seemed to start Lucy off yesterday - of what we saw anyway was Amy asking Vincent if she could use his hammock.
She's got an actual bed in the tree house, it seemed a bit cheeky to me. 'I'd rather sleep here in your bed if you don't mind'
Not a big thing in itself, but it irritated me a bit and seemed to have annoyed Lucy.
I'm not saying Amy 'is a bitch', or that Lucy 'is a bitch', mind.
I find Lucy acerbic, gets too irritated and snappy, but is generally supportive and helpful.
Amy seems a decent enough girl, but the evidence we have points to that she is lazy, and the request to Vincent (and how she said it) demonstrates some level of 'entitlement'.
Had she stayed in her bed, then they would have complained that she's not associating with the rest of the camp.
I find this argument - she chose it she must love it - a little facile.
That's not an argument I've made. I think that, generally, the celebs who do a lot of chores like doing a lot, or need to do a lot to pass the time. And then I didn't say they don't get hacked off when others don't do as much as they "should"; my point was that they shouldn't get hacked off. They should instead be glad that they have an opportunity to do a lot and not resent those who happen not to be energiser bunnies.
Half the ones running round doing chores are doing it to ingratiate themselves anyway. Its the BB syndrome, make yourself indispensible and people will find it hard to nominate you.Or in this case the campers will find you adorably helpful and be wary of dissing you on camera. ...
And as I said in that thread -- sorry about all this "that thread" stuff, but the same issues come up in so many threads, and I don't always have an interestingly different way to say something I've already said --
If a person doesn't do "their share",
does it really matter all that much? I tend to think less of contestants who make a big deal of it, especially since such complaints are often used as a tactic, to try to influence viewers or other contestants. It can also make things worse, since in addition to someone who'd thought to be doing too little, there's the negative atmosphere created by the complaints and comments.
So when I see a contestant in a show like this complain that another contestant isn't "pulling their weight" or "doing their share", I start to wonder about the complainers and, for instance, whether they complain equally about everyone who's doing less than whatever the "required" amount is supposed to be.
I chose to be a mother, I still get hacked off when my daughter doesn't tidy up or help as much as she should.
That's not even contrary to the argument I didn't make, because you chose to be a mother but are hacked off about something else. (The argument would say you chose to be a mother; you must love being a mother. In any case, I think there's much too great a difference between a choice such as choosing to be a mother and one like choosing to continually do a lot of chores around a camp in IAC.)
Some people take a lot on at work, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't LIKE some help and appreciation and don't get a bit cheesed off.
Forthright, practical and helpful team players are actually human beings, they expect a bit of help, even though they may be happy to do a lot of the work.
Sometimes they're like sports bullies who pick on people who don't "try hard enough" in games.
However for me personally I think she was a bit rude to Amy, but I guess she pissed off that she has to do stuff while she does nothing. I wonder if it's only Amy who does nothing, I hope they are telling others to pull their weight and not just her.
I think Lucy's taken it upon herself to be the mouthpiece for the camp in general. When Amy came down from the hut in the morning everyone was sarcastic about her sleeping and advising her (tongues firmly in cheeks) to have a little lie down. Amy must be pretty dim if she didn't cotton on to that - or she doesn't care, which may explain Lucy's irritation.
I find this argument - she chose it she must love it - a little facile.
I chose to be a mother, I still get hacked off when my daughter doesn't tidy up or help as much as she should.
Some people take a lot on at work, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't LIKE some help and appreciation and don't get a bit cheesed off.
Forthright, practical and helpful team players are actually human beings, they expect a bit of help, even though they may be happy to do a lot of the work.
Completely agree. Apart from anything else, it's just basic courtesy to want to help keep the camp as pleasant as possible for everyone. I feel Lucy's frustration and also her resentment that she knows she's coming across as a nag when she shouldn't and wouldn't have to if others were taking the initiative and not having to be asked to do things.
Does your complete agreement include agreeing that I made an argument that I didn't? (For that, see my previous post.)
Apart form anything else, it's just basic courtesy to want to help keep the camp as pleasant as possible for everyone. I feel Lucy's frustration and also her resentment that she knows she's coming across as a nag when she shouldn't and wouldn't have to if others were taking the initiative and not having to be asked to do things.
So what makes Lucy the "basic courtesy" police?
And what shows Amy doesn't help? She may not help as Lucy wants, but to that I'm inclined to say "tough" and that Lucy should spend her time and emotions on more productive and positive things than picking on Amy.
There's a canopy in the Joey / Amy bedroom area so she wouldn't be able to top-up her tan.
Well considering this was early morning and there wasn't much sun out, plus she was covered up I don't think tanning was on her agenda when she politely asked if she could lie in Vincent's hammock.
... The work she and a few of the others do, whether they chose to take it on themselves or not, is work that is vital and has to be done by someone, it would just be fairer and make for a more pleasant atmosphere if everyone lent a hand, even if some do more than others. But as a viewer I have strong suspicions that there are one or two who would be happy to sit back and let others do it all, and that is bound to cause resentment.
Some of it has to be done; some of it doesn't. And there'd be a far more pleasant atmosphere if some of them stopped concerning themselves so much with what others are or aren't doing, and stopped complaining about them.
So far as I can tell, everyone is lending a hand. And if someone like Lucy -- who had a problem with Amy anyway -- complains about Amy in particular, that's not going to make me think Amy actually does the least.
That's not an argument I've made. I think that, generally, the celebs who do a lot of chores like doing a lot, or need to do a lot to pass the time. And then I didn't say they don't get hacked off when others don't do as much as they "should"; my point was that they shouldn't get hacked off. They should instead be glad that they have an opportunity to do a lot and not resent those who happen not to be energiser bunnies.
As someone mentioned in another thread,
But someone else pointed out to me in that thread that there's often another reason why someone does a lot of chores:
And as I said in that thread -- sorry about all this "that thread" stuff, but the same issues come up in so many threads, and I don't always have an interestingly different way to say something I've already said --
If a person doesn't do "their share",
does it really matter all that much? I tend to think less of contestants who make a big deal of it, especially since such complaints are often used as a tactic, to try to influence viewers or other contestants. It can also make things worse, since in addition to someone who'd thought to be doing too little, there's the negative atmosphere created by the complaints and comments.
So when I see a contestant in a show like this complain that another contestant isn't "pulling their weight" or "doing their share", I start to wonder about the complainers and, for instance, whether they complain equally about everyone who's doing less than whatever the "required" amount is supposed to be.
That's not even contrary to the argument I didn't make, because you chose to be a mother but are hacked off about something else. (The argument would say you chose to be a mother; you must love being a mother. In any case, I think there's much too great a difference between a choice such as choosing to be a mother and one like choosing to continually do a lot of chores around a camp in IAC.)
Sometimes they're like sports bullies who pick on people who don't "try hard enough" in games.
First paragraph Bib (sorry can't work out the snipping).
I don't see how you can say they SHOULDN'T get cross.
I can't see your argument for that at all. Taking on tasks doesn't mean you don't want help and appreciation, and that's actually NOT unreasonable. It's how it works in the world.
Saying they 'shouldn't' because what? They must want to do it ALL? Makes little sense to me, I'm afraid.
They can be glad enough to do the lions share if you will, but that doesn't mean they SHOULDN'T get hacked off if people don't help or appreciate their efforts.
Bib 2 Right... so you look at the complainers. I think everyone does, to be honest, and then they see what others in the camp say, and what they see themselves.
It's THEN the judgement can be made.
Personally, I don't JUST look at the complainers, because, hey, they actually might have a perfectly good reason to complain, and it wouldn't really be fair to be so one sided.
The section about me being a Mother and it's not being the same as being a top camp helper is fair enough, though somewhat confusing. However, the principle is the same. I chose to be a Mother which ENTAILS a lot of work, however, I still expect her to pull the weight appropriate.
Lucy might CHOOSE to be top camp helper, but she might quite reasonably expect others to pull their weight and show a bit of appreciation similarly.
Martyr mothers are a bit pathetic in my book.
Sports bullies tend to want their victims to do far more difficult or unsuitable (to the person) tasks, that camp leaders do. Finding a few logs and washing up now and again is hardly the same as being forced to do ten miles cross country.
Some of it has to be done; some of it doesn't. And there'd be a far more pleasant atmosphere if some of them stopped concerning themselves so much with what others are or aren't doing, and stopped complaining about them.
So far as I can tell, everyone is lending a hand. And if someone like Lucy -- who had a problem with Amy anyway -- complains about Amy in particular, that's not going to make me think Amy actually does the least.
Which of the chores do you reckon don't need to be done? And I can only go on whatever footage we are shown and from that I have formed the opinion that Amy does very little except posturise and top up her tan, but you obviously see something different. Fair enough we are all entitled to our own points of view, but it's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that Lucy and Amy are on opposite ends of the work ethic spectrum. Not necessarily a bad thing, but quite understandable for one to be irritated by the other.
Which of the chores do you reckon don't need to be done? And I can only go on whatever footage we are shown and from that I have formed the opinion that Amy does very little except posturise and top up her tan, but you obviously see something different. Fair enough we are all entitled to our own points of view, but it's pretty obvious (to me anyway) that Lucy and Amy are on opposite ends of the work ethic spectrum. Not necessarily a bad thing, but quite understandable for one to be irritated by the other.
So you didn't see the footage of Amy washing up and even yesterday had to remind Annabel that she had infact washed up the day before after Annabel said she hadn't. Also her participant in the trial in which she won 7 stars for camp. I think it's unfair to say she does little else except top up her tan.
So you didn't see the footage of Amy washing up and even yesterday had to remind Annabel that she had infact washed up the day before after Annabel said she hadn't. Also her participant in the trial in which she won 7 stars for camp. I think it's unfair to say she does little else except top up her tan.
Yes I did see it, but it appears that she has to be reminded and asked repeatedly to do things. The fact she has washed up twice as far as we saw, does not mean she is not lazy. I am basing my opinion on how the other campmates are reacting to her and not just on what we see her doing. Annabel apologised for her mistake in thinking she hadn't done it the day before, but what made her feel the need to point it out in the first place I wonder? Most likely the fact that Amy does very little except top up her tan I should think!
And while some might think it's unfair to say she is lazy, I also think it's unfair that some people label Lucy a jealous old hag and worse, but such is the nature of a forum, we all have our own opinions!
So you didn't see the footage of Amy washing up and even yesterday had to remind Annabel that she had infact washed up the day before after Annabel said she hadn't. Also her participant in the trial in which she won 7 stars for camp. I think it's unfair to say she does little else except top up her tan.
Why because she washed up once? Even though we are only shown a fraction of footage, it is clear that the majority of the camp have expressed their view at some point on Amy's apparent laziness, not just Lucy or Annabele. And the fact that Amy genuinely believes that passing someone's food to them at dinner time constitutes helping with the chores sums it all up!
Day 1 it has been going on from the ITV 2 show and now they are basically calling her a jealous bitch. Unbelievable at how biased they are against her.
I don't watch the spin off show can't watch any of them who present it!
Lucy has nothing to be jealous of in my opinion..Amy is a pretty girl no doubt about that but if we are going to be honest I would say it starts & ends there, Amy is Pretty & that is all, will I even remember who she is in a years time? I doubt it very much! Think that says enough & I am not being nasty just being honest & giving my opinion!
Comments
So you expect Amy to use Vincent's hammock without asking??
Why do you think that?
The post doesn't say it's solely on looks/career. It even says straight out that "it's not all about looks, far from it, more a combination of factors of which attractiveness is one".
It even mentions factors of personality and behaviour; so no, it hasn't left them out.
BTW, did you really mean you "can't separate personality/behaviour from physical appearance and it's the former I 'judge' people on." I'm guessing you mean you can separate. But how do you know? How do you know you're completely uninfluenced by looks when observing personality and behaviour?
I don't think anyone can know that; and I think there's a lot of evidence that people are influenced by looks, including in ways they're not aware of.
(Your example doesn't show anything contrary to what I've said, and it even suggests that you don't keep looks -- or at least attractiveness -- and personality separate.)
I find this argument - she chose it she must love it - a little facile.
I chose to be a mother, I still get hacked off when my daughter doesn't tidy up or help as much as she should.
Some people take a lot on at work, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't LIKE some help and appreciation and don't get a bit cheesed off.
Forthright, practical and helpful team players are actually human beings, they expect a bit of help, even though they may be happy to do a lot of the work.
I was almost with you up until you said David was the most attractive man.... .;)
Don't get me wrong, I do not think that you are one of the female posters on DS I would say do the unfair judgement thing. For the record, I have included personality and behaviour several times when referring to the type of woman that generally get's the disproportionate 'hate' before on here and those that don't.
I'm not sure how many more times I can say it's NOT just about looks, but it's certainly a contributing factor.
I suppose it's down to personal taste .I liked Ashley and wanted her to win. But I don't think she's as attractive as Amy.
Really, I don't think we're disagreeing at all in the broader sense, just quibbling over specific criticism of specific people in specific circumstances. I'm not suggesting that I'm right and you're wrong - not at all - just acknowledging that at times, what I see as rational and valid criticism, I feel you see as evidence of something bigger and more hostile. Maybe you're right, maybe it is? But I can only comment on how it comes across to me and deal with it on an individual basis rather than as a whole, if you follow me.
I'm going to ignore your slur on my David
I completely agree! The work she and a few of the others do, whether they chose to take it on themselves or not, is work that is vital and has to be done by someone, it would just be fairer and make for a more pleasant atmosphere if everyone lent a hand, even if some do more than others. But as a viewer I have strong suspicions that there are one or two who would be happy to sit back and let others do it all, and that is bound to cause resentment.
Had she stayed in her bed, then they would have complained that she's not associating with the rest of the camp.
Well, we don't know that.
And sleeping is hardly conducive to 'associating'.
Perhaps she couldn't be arsed to go up to her own bed.
That's not an argument I've made. I think that, generally, the celebs who do a lot of chores like doing a lot, or need to do a lot to pass the time. And then I didn't say they don't get hacked off when others don't do as much as they "should"; my point was that they shouldn't get hacked off. They should instead be glad that they have an opportunity to do a lot and not resent those who happen not to be energiser bunnies.
As someone mentioned in another thread,
But someone else pointed out to me in that thread that there's often another reason why someone does a lot of chores:
And as I said in that thread -- sorry about all this "that thread" stuff, but the same issues come up in so many threads, and I don't always have an interestingly different way to say something I've already said --
If a person doesn't do "their share",
So when I see a contestant in a show like this complain that another contestant isn't "pulling their weight" or "doing their share", I start to wonder about the complainers and, for instance, whether they complain equally about everyone who's doing less than whatever the "required" amount is supposed to be.
That's not even contrary to the argument I didn't make, because you chose to be a mother but are hacked off about something else. (The argument would say you chose to be a mother; you must love being a mother. In any case, I think there's much too great a difference between a choice such as choosing to be a mother and one like choosing to continually do a lot of chores around a camp in IAC.)
Sometimes they're like sports bullies who pick on people who don't "try hard enough" in games.
Perhaps she didn't want to be isolated from the group during the days.
I think Lucy's taken it upon herself to be the mouthpiece for the camp in general. When Amy came down from the hut in the morning everyone was sarcastic about her sleeping and advising her (tongues firmly in cheeks) to have a little lie down. Amy must be pretty dim if she didn't cotton on to that - or she doesn't care, which may explain Lucy's irritation.
Completely agree. Apart from anything else, it's just basic courtesy to want to help keep the camp as pleasant as possible for everyone. I feel Lucy's frustration and also her resentment that she knows she's coming across as a nag when she shouldn't and wouldn't have to if others were taking the initiative and not having to be asked to do things.
Or perhaps she knew there would be more airtime to be had in the main camp area
Does your complete agreement include agreeing that I made an argument that I didn't? (For that, see my previous post.)
So what makes Lucy the "basic courtesy" police?
And what shows Amy doesn't help? She may not help as Lucy wants, but to that I'm inclined to say "tough" and that Lucy should spend her time and emotions on more productive and positive things than picking on Amy.
There's a canopy in the Joey / Amy bedroom area so she wouldn't be able to top-up her tan.
Well considering this was early morning and there wasn't much sun out, plus she was covered up I don't think tanning was on her agenda when she politely asked if she could lie in Vincent's hammock.
Some of it has to be done; some of it doesn't. And there'd be a far more pleasant atmosphere if some of them stopped concerning themselves so much with what others are or aren't doing, and stopped complaining about them.
So far as I can tell, everyone is lending a hand. And if someone like Lucy -- who had a problem with Amy anyway -- complains about Amy in particular, that's not going to make me think Amy actually does the least.
First paragraph Bib (sorry can't work out the snipping).
I don't see how you can say they SHOULDN'T get cross.
I can't see your argument for that at all. Taking on tasks doesn't mean you don't want help and appreciation, and that's actually NOT unreasonable. It's how it works in the world.
Saying they 'shouldn't' because what? They must want to do it ALL? Makes little sense to me, I'm afraid.
They can be glad enough to do the lions share if you will, but that doesn't mean they SHOULDN'T get hacked off if people don't help or appreciate their efforts.
Bib 2 Right... so you look at the complainers. I think everyone does, to be honest, and then they see what others in the camp say, and what they see themselves.
It's THEN the judgement can be made.
Personally, I don't JUST look at the complainers, because, hey, they actually might have a perfectly good reason to complain, and it wouldn't really be fair to be so one sided.
The section about me being a Mother and it's not being the same as being a top camp helper is fair enough, though somewhat confusing. However, the principle is the same. I chose to be a Mother which ENTAILS a lot of work, however, I still expect her to pull the weight appropriate.
Lucy might CHOOSE to be top camp helper, but she might quite reasonably expect others to pull their weight and show a bit of appreciation similarly.
Martyr mothers are a bit pathetic in my book.
Sports bullies tend to want their victims to do far more difficult or unsuitable (to the person) tasks, that camp leaders do. Finding a few logs and washing up now and again is hardly the same as being forced to do ten miles cross country.
Which of the chores do you reckon don't need to be done?
So you didn't see the footage of Amy washing up and even yesterday had to remind Annabel that she had infact washed up the day before after Annabel said she hadn't. Also her participant in the trial in which she won 7 stars for camp. I think it's unfair to say she does little else except top up her tan.
Yes I did see it, but it appears that she has to be reminded and asked repeatedly to do things. The fact she has washed up twice as far as we saw, does not mean she is not lazy. I am basing my opinion on how the other campmates are reacting to her and not just on what we see her doing. Annabel apologised for her mistake in thinking she hadn't done it the day before, but what made her feel the need to point it out in the first place I wonder? Most likely the fact that Amy does very little except top up her tan I should think!
And while some might think it's unfair to say she is lazy, I also think it's unfair that some people label Lucy a jealous old hag and worse, but such is the nature of a forum, we all have our own opinions!
Why because she washed up once? Even though we are only shown a fraction of footage, it is clear that the majority of the camp have expressed their view at some point on Amy's apparent laziness, not just Lucy or Annabele. And the fact that Amy genuinely believes that passing someone's food to them at dinner time constitutes helping with the chores sums it all up!
I don't watch the spin off show can't watch any of them who present it!
Lucy has nothing to be jealous of in my opinion..Amy is a pretty girl no doubt about that but if we are going to be honest I would say it starts & ends there, Amy is Pretty & that is all, will I even remember who she is in a years time? I doubt it very much! Think that says enough & I am not being nasty just being honest & giving my opinion!