the real problem is the simple fact that 3 young girls have been led to believe that what they are doing is right
they may have made the decision themselves to leave the country, but imagine if it was your teenage son or daughter who had been groomed to do something extreme that you wouldn't agree to. how would you feel then? would you think it was ok because it was their decision, no matter how life changing that decision would be not only to themselves but to their family and friends?
it is a similar case to peados grooming kids. it's adults who know certain persausive techniques, praying on the vulnerable to get them to do things they probably wouldn't have done without the grooming
to some degree it's surprising they weren't stopped at such an age travelling without an adult, especially to such a destination, but it's simply rationalising by the families (perhaps understandably under the circumstances) to blame the government rather than themselves for not providing suitable parenting to prevent this happening
maybe the girls were unhappy at home or school, and parents were strict, but that doesn't mean they deserve an impending horrible fate because someone else has persuaded them into doing it
They are traitors to their country and their family. Read the blog by Aqsa Mahmood and tell me they don't know what they are getting into.
Your comment was aimed at 3 girls (including two 15 year olds) and I asked you to clear that up.
And you did.
All the girls are legally children. Two of them cannot even consent to sex....never mind consent to slavery.
It has taken us (the British Public) 15 years to finally realise that a child cannot consent to sex and that the series of television documentaries describing "Child Prostitutes" in Northern cities, who were sneaking out of care homes to meet their "pimps" were ridiculous productions. The BBC and Channel 4 should now be ashamed that we were asked ("pre-Savile") to accept the proposition that a child can consent to be a prostitute.
Although it is horribly complicated, it would be great if we could take another big leap and accept that a child cannot (also) consent to slow and persistent grooming of a different nature.
MP Simon Hughes appeared on Sky News 2 hours ago and was clear about this news story. He said "It is Grooming".
No my comment was aimed at the belief that it is solely because they are Muslims.
If children are solely children and not in any way responsible then the Bulger killers would be living freely and openly in society, but they are not because although the law may indicate their level of responsibility all people have been children themselves and know that yes you make mistakes but perpetrating evil is frequently a concious decision.
I would not disagree with Mr Hughes assessment but has he any opinion on what makes this particular grooming so easy, so frequent and so difficult to counter in our society. I have have you?
I find some of the comments on this thread disturbing. They show the same lack of empathy that extremist groups try to develop in their followers.
They are running off to become PR trophies and married to terrorists who behead, immolate and crucify people. The woman who supposedly urged them to come said she would only come back to the UK when the black flag of Islam was flying over Downing street.
Remind me why we should feel empathy for these people?
How can you have a proper understanding of anything at the age of 15, especially of something so intricate as Scripture ?
To repeat, people with the most cursory understanding of a faith, or those still in formative stages, are those most at risk of manipulation by self-proclaimed religious leaders.
Who decides who is a true Muslim then? Who has the authority to decide that your interpretation isn't sound?
They are traitors to their country and their family. Read the blog by Aqsa Mahmood and tell me they don't know what they are getting into.
i'm not going to read the blog, and i haven't said they don't know what they are getting into
the point is that children are being persuaded into doing extreme things, and that's a problem, don't you think? or do you think it's fine that kids are being brainwashed to join isis or do other extreme things? don't you think something should be done to avoid kids ending up doing what they are doing?
i'm not going to read the blog, and i haven't said they don't know what they are getting into
the point is that children are being persuaded into doing extreme things, and that's a problem, don't you think? or do you think it's fine that kids are being brainwashed to join isis or do other extreme things? don't you think something should be done to avoid kids ending up doing what they are doing?
Like what?
Adolescence is a period of immaturity when the young experiment and make mistakes.
They take risks with unprotected sex, taking drugs, driving cars too fast and binge drinking. They think that anyone over the age of thirty is an old fogey and a killjoy. They think that they know what's good for them. They think that they know what's wrong with the world and how to fix it.
i'm not going to read the blog, and i haven't said they don't know what they are getting into
the point is that children are being persuaded into doing extreme things, and that's a problem, don't you think? or do you think it's fine that kids are being brainwashed to join isis or do other extreme things? don't you think something should be done to avoid kids ending up doing what they are doing?
Do you have any conception of how repressive a mulsim 15 year old girl's home life has to be, to find freedom and meaning in travelling to Syria to help ISIS burn alive caged Jordanian pilots in the desert and be taken as a bride by someone they never met?
Their lives at home were as Islamic as humanly possible thanks to our ultra liberal government. Tower Hamlets has everything a muslim can dream of including the call to prayer in the streets (Adhan). However, instead of waiting for their parents to pick them a husband to live a life of servitude with, they decided to go somewhere different to live an Islamic life of servitude. Clearly, they were not seduced by Shakespearean plays or PE at school. They will be more at home in the East.
i'm not going to read the blog, and i haven't said they don't know what they are getting into
the point is that children are being persuaded into doing extreme things, and that's a problem, don't you think? or do you think it's fine that kids are being brainwashed to join isis or do other extreme things? don't you think something should be done to avoid kids ending up doing what they are doing?
A girl from their school had already disappeared to join ISIS. If the parents or school isn't warning against it and actively looking for it when it happened 3 months ago then you can't blame the security services. These girls can go and never come back. They are no loss to British society if they side with ISIS.
They are traitors to their country and their family. Read the blog by Aqsa Mahmood and tell me they don't know what they are getting into.
I agree they are traitors and should not be allowed to return. Their families can travel abroad if they wish to see them, assuming they change their minds and manage to escape the Islamic State.
The problem with liberals like Cameron is, no one takes any notice of his tough words because we all know they will be allowed to return and carry on from where they left off.
That why liberal polices don't work, there is no incentive for them not to go. Why have the government not passed an updated treason or foreign enlistment act? The girls are aiding and abetting the enemy. The definition of British citizenship is 100% loyalty. Honestly our politicians are pathetic.
Funny they all went to the same school including previous girls that went to join the Islamic State.
I would not disagree with Mr Hughes assessment but has he any opinion on what makes this particular grooming so easy, so frequent and so difficult to counter in our society. I have have you?
It does not seem right for me to respond on behalf of two people but I will try to...... even though I have not met Simon Hughes.
The grooming is "easy" (not difficult) because the victims are children.
The grooming is frequent because there are thousands (tens of thousands?) of men in the UK who target different age groups (ask me for details).
Why is it difficult to counter? See Frequent.
If I may say so......your question seems to have an "edge".
Let's leave Simon out of it just for a moment.
Why would you assume that a forum member who is posting a torrent of pro Feminism posts would do anything except side with the victims and not side with the perpertrators??
They are running off to become PR trophies and married to terrorists who behead, immolate and crucify people. The woman who supposedly urged them to come said she would only come back to the UK when the black flag of Islam was flying over Downing street.
Remind me why we should feel empathy for these people?
I think you need to look at the definition of empathy:
Empathy is the capacity to understand what another person is experiencing from within the other person's frame of reference, ie, the capacity to place oneself in another's shoes.
Understanding the point of view of others is vital if you want to work out why people do the things they do and try to prevent them taking actions that will harm both themselves and other people.
Going on about punishment and calling them traitors is just going to reinforce the world view they've developed while under the influence of these people. We'll win this by being better and acting better than these groups, not by coming down to their level and using the sort of black and white simplistic thinking they try to encourage.
i'm not going to read the blog, and i haven't said they don't know what they are getting into
the point is that children are being persuaded into doing extreme things, and that's a problem, don't you think? or do you think it's fine that kids are being brainwashed to join isis or do other extreme things? don't you think something should be done to avoid kids ending up doing what they are doing?
Well the girls read the blog and were in private contact with Mahmood. One of them was following seventy terrorists on social media.
The didn't even have to leave their homes to do it. They were being brainwashed on the internet.. What do you suggest? That all parents ban the internet from their homes?
Their lives at home were as Islamic as humanly possible thanks to our ultra liberal government..
Nail hit right on head. No problem with multiracialism (providing immigrants are here legally and want to be part of British society) but multiculturalism is directly responsible for this mess. Because these backward thinking repressive people are allowed to conduct themselves as if they were not in a democracy (as long as it's behind closed doors) what we're constantly told is the true face is Islam continues to get punched in the face by those who prefer barbarity.
If we didn't have such wet lettuce governments part of any test for those immigrants from Islamic backgrounds who claim they wish to live here, should be 'are you prepared to adopt British values?' If they answer yes then are shown to do the opposite, then it's a fast ticket back to their country of origin. And before anyone says that freedom of speech is a British value, yes it is, but that freedom has its legal limits, and does not include areas such as incitement to hate crimes, etc. Presumably, IS supporters encouraging schoolgirls to join them is still considered wrong, even by the likes of Grommet.
Well the girls read the blog and were in private contact with Mahmood. One of them was following seventy terrorists on social media.
A fact which blows the current government (and the possible Labor replacement) plans to increase surveillance right out of the water! We are told that the 'security services' knew these girls were talking regularly to confirmed IS personnel. Presumably, this is because such comms were being monitored. Yet the same 'security services' were apparently not competent enough to know when the schoolgirls left the country until it was too late to stop them. Why weren't their names added to a flag list at all major airports?
A fact which blows the current government (and the possible Labor replacement) plans to increase surveillance right out of the water! We are told that the 'security services' knew these girls were talking regularly to confirmed IS personnel. Presumably, this is because such comms were being monitored. Yet the same 'security services' were apparently not competent enough to know when the schoolgirls left the country until it was too late to stop them. Why weren't their names added to a flag list at all major airports?
I'd like to think that our security services were busy protecting us from the planned terrorist attacks on shops in Oxford Street and other retail outlets and not wasting their time on three stupid girls hell bent on joining terrorists abroad and becoming sex slaves.
I'd like to thin that our security services were busy protecting us from the planned terrorist attacks on shops in Oxford Street and other retail outlets and not wasting their time on three stupid girls hell bent on joining terrorists abroad and becoming sex slaves.
But that's just the point, they were 'wasting their time' monitoring at least one of these girls. Yet were unable to prevent her leaving the country, thus handing massive free publicity to IS. Surely, nipping this episode in the bud, and returning the girls to their grateful families would NOT have been a waste? Instead, they look like they don't give a damn about these kids, and are not competent enough to control their movement and presumably finishing conversion to radical thinking.
But that's just the point, they were 'wasting their time' monitoring at least one of these girls. Yet were unable to prevent her leaving the country, thus handing massive free publicity to IS. Surely, nipping this episode in the bud, and returning the girls to their grateful families would NOT have been a waste?
I totally disagree, they were hell bent on leaving the country and nothing was going to stop them. Security should have been focussed on protecting innocent shoppers in retail outlets.
I totally disagree, they were hell bent on leaving the country and nothing was going to stop them. Security should have been focussed on protecting innocent shoppers in retail outlets.
You make is sound like internal security is one man and his dog!
Yes, of course shopper should be protected, but preventing such a big publicity coup for IS, and at the same time earning the gratitude/ trust of the non-radical Islamic community is surely worth the small effort involved in adding three names to the list of persons of interest?
You make is sound like internal security is one man and his dog!
Yes, of course shopper should be protected, but preventing such a big publicity coup for IS, and at the same time earning the gratitude/ trust of the non-radical Islamic community is surely worth the small effort involved in adding three names to the list of persons of interest?
When security service resources are limited, three stupid girls whose only contribution to ISIS is to become sex slaves in foreign parts are insignificant. People here wanting to bomb us in our land is highly significant.
Would it not have been better to report what was happening to the parents of these children, before they became brainwashed?
The parents were sitting downstairs in the home that the girls were using to make contact with ISIS. If it was going on under the noses of their parents then how on earth could anyone outside the home have known?
I wonder which political parties regard 16 year olds as mature enough to vote in general elections.
We are being told that these 15 to 17 year old girls, although educated to A level, were naive enough to be brainwashed into joining an obviously extremist organisation whose levels of barbarity have been highly publicised.
Now seems a good time to forget that idea about lowering the voting age.
Comments
They are traitors to their country and their family. Read the blog by Aqsa Mahmood and tell me they don't know what they are getting into.
No my comment was aimed at the belief that it is solely because they are Muslims.
If children are solely children and not in any way responsible then the Bulger killers would be living freely and openly in society, but they are not because although the law may indicate their level of responsibility all people have been children themselves and know that yes you make mistakes but perpetrating evil is frequently a concious decision.
I would not disagree with Mr Hughes assessment but has he any opinion on what makes this particular grooming so easy, so frequent and so difficult to counter in our society. I have have you?
They are running off to become PR trophies and married to terrorists who behead, immolate and crucify people. The woman who supposedly urged them to come said she would only come back to the UK when the black flag of Islam was flying over Downing street.
Remind me why we should feel empathy for these people?
Who decides who is a true Muslim then? Who has the authority to decide that your interpretation isn't sound?
i'm not going to read the blog, and i haven't said they don't know what they are getting into
the point is that children are being persuaded into doing extreme things, and that's a problem, don't you think? or do you think it's fine that kids are being brainwashed to join isis or do other extreme things? don't you think something should be done to avoid kids ending up doing what they are doing?
Like what?
Adolescence is a period of immaturity when the young experiment and make mistakes.
They take risks with unprotected sex, taking drugs, driving cars too fast and binge drinking. They think that anyone over the age of thirty is an old fogey and a killjoy. They think that they know what's good for them. They think that they know what's wrong with the world and how to fix it.
Do you have any conception of how repressive a mulsim 15 year old girl's home life has to be, to find freedom and meaning in travelling to Syria to help ISIS burn alive caged Jordanian pilots in the desert and be taken as a bride by someone they never met?
Their lives at home were as Islamic as humanly possible thanks to our ultra liberal government. Tower Hamlets has everything a muslim can dream of including the call to prayer in the streets (Adhan). However, instead of waiting for their parents to pick them a husband to live a life of servitude with, they decided to go somewhere different to live an Islamic life of servitude. Clearly, they were not seduced by Shakespearean plays or PE at school. They will be more at home in the East.
A girl from their school had already disappeared to join ISIS. If the parents or school isn't warning against it and actively looking for it when it happened 3 months ago then you can't blame the security services. These girls can go and never come back. They are no loss to British society if they side with ISIS.
I agree they are traitors and should not be allowed to return. Their families can travel abroad if they wish to see them, assuming they change their minds and manage to escape the Islamic State.
The problem with liberals like Cameron is, no one takes any notice of his tough words because we all know they will be allowed to return and carry on from where they left off.
That why liberal polices don't work, there is no incentive for them not to go. Why have the government not passed an updated treason or foreign enlistment act? The girls are aiding and abetting the enemy. The definition of British citizenship is 100% loyalty. Honestly our politicians are pathetic.
Funny they all went to the same school including previous girls that went to join the Islamic State.
Either that or some Imam as told them heaven is running out of virgins.
It does not seem right for me to respond on behalf of two people but I will try to...... even though I have not met Simon Hughes.
The grooming is "easy" (not difficult) because the victims are children.
The grooming is frequent because there are thousands (tens of thousands?) of men in the UK who target different age groups (ask me for details).
Why is it difficult to counter? See Frequent.
If I may say so......your question seems to have an "edge".
Let's leave Simon out of it just for a moment.
Why would you assume that a forum member who is posting a torrent of pro Feminism posts would do anything except side with the victims and not side with the perpertrators??
I think you need to look at the definition of empathy:
Understanding the point of view of others is vital if you want to work out why people do the things they do and try to prevent them taking actions that will harm both themselves and other people.
Going on about punishment and calling them traitors is just going to reinforce the world view they've developed while under the influence of these people. We'll win this by being better and acting better than these groups, not by coming down to their level and using the sort of black and white simplistic thinking they try to encourage.
Well the girls read the blog and were in private contact with Mahmood. One of them was following seventy terrorists on social media.
The didn't even have to leave their homes to do it. They were being brainwashed on the internet.. What do you suggest? That all parents ban the internet from their homes?
Nail hit right on head. No problem with multiracialism (providing immigrants are here legally and want to be part of British society) but multiculturalism is directly responsible for this mess. Because these backward thinking repressive people are allowed to conduct themselves as if they were not in a democracy (as long as it's behind closed doors) what we're constantly told is the true face is Islam continues to get punched in the face by those who prefer barbarity.
If we didn't have such wet lettuce governments part of any test for those immigrants from Islamic backgrounds who claim they wish to live here, should be 'are you prepared to adopt British values?' If they answer yes then are shown to do the opposite, then it's a fast ticket back to their country of origin. And before anyone says that freedom of speech is a British value, yes it is, but that freedom has its legal limits, and does not include areas such as incitement to hate crimes, etc. Presumably, IS supporters encouraging schoolgirls to join them is still considered wrong, even by the likes of Grommet.
A fact which blows the current government (and the possible Labor replacement) plans to increase surveillance right out of the water! We are told that the 'security services' knew these girls were talking regularly to confirmed IS personnel. Presumably, this is because such comms were being monitored. Yet the same 'security services' were apparently not competent enough to know when the schoolgirls left the country until it was too late to stop them. Why weren't their names added to a flag list at all major airports?
I'd like to think that our security services were busy protecting us from the planned terrorist attacks on shops in Oxford Street and other retail outlets and not wasting their time on three stupid girls hell bent on joining terrorists abroad and becoming sex slaves.
But that's just the point, they were 'wasting their time' monitoring at least one of these girls. Yet were unable to prevent her leaving the country, thus handing massive free publicity to IS. Surely, nipping this episode in the bud, and returning the girls to their grateful families would NOT have been a waste? Instead, they look like they don't give a damn about these kids, and are not competent enough to control their movement and presumably finishing conversion to radical thinking.
I totally disagree, they were hell bent on leaving the country and nothing was going to stop them. Security should have been focussed on protecting innocent shoppers in retail outlets.
You make is sound like internal security is one man and his dog!
Yes, of course shopper should be protected, but preventing such a big publicity coup for IS, and at the same time earning the gratitude/ trust of the non-radical Islamic community is surely worth the small effort involved in adding three names to the list of persons of interest?
Would it not have been better to report what was happening to the parents of these children, before they became brainwashed?
Better for who?
This country? If they were that easily lead, then we could do without them.
When security service resources are limited, three stupid girls whose only contribution to ISIS is to become sex slaves in foreign parts are insignificant. People here wanting to bomb us in our land is highly significant.
The parents were sitting downstairs in the home that the girls were using to make contact with ISIS. If it was going on under the noses of their parents then how on earth could anyone outside the home have known?
We are being told that these 15 to 17 year old girls, although educated to A level, were naive enough to be brainwashed into joining an obviously extremist organisation whose levels of barbarity have been highly publicised.
Now seems a good time to forget that idea about lowering the voting age.