To be fair to Steven Moffat he really had no choice but to allow the show to move on from the Time War, it had become an albatross around the shows neck by becoming such an established part of the programme that it would have always been there in the background for every Doctor to come.
In fact it had become such a large part of new who that the only thing the 50th could be really about was the Time War and what the Doctor did during it. Even after 3 series none of Moffat's mythology has come close to the mythology of The Time War. That isn't a dig a Moffat by the way just that RTD's Time War concept was genius.
But Moffat's master stroke in the 50th was not to reset or reboot it for the previous Doctors, it's all still there, 9 and 10 and Hurt Doctor and 11 pre end of the 5oth still believe they destroyed Galliifrey. So a viewer can go back and watch any of the shows before the 50th and they still stand, nothing has changed, Ecclestone's Doctor has no idea that Gallifrey has been saved but 11, after the 50th and all future Doctors will be relieved of this burden.
The Bad Wolf arcs, for example, in previous episodes remains unchanged, everything remains unchanged right up to the 50th
To be fair to Steven Moffat he really had no choice but to allow the show to move on from the Time War, it had become an albatross around the shows neck by becoming such an established part of the programme that it would have always been there in the background for every Doctor to come.
In fact it had become such a large part of new who that the only thing the 50th could be really about was the Time War and what the Doctor did during it. Even after 3 series none of Moffat's mythology has come close to the mythology of The a Time War. That isn't a dig a Moffat by the way just that RTD's Time War concept was genius.
But Moffat's master stroke in the 50th was not to reset or reboot it for the previous Doctors, it's all still there, 9 and 10 and Hurt Doctor still believe they destroyed Galliifrey. So a viewer can go back and watch any of the shows before the 50th and they still stand, nothing has changed, Ecclestone's Doctor gas no idea that Gallifrey has been saved but 11, after the 50th and all future Doctors will be relieved of this burden.
The Bad Wolf arcs, for example, in previous episodes remains unchanged, everything remains unchanged right up to the 50th
To be fair to Steven Moffat he really had no choice but to allow the show to move on from the Time War, it had become an albatross around the shows neck by becoming such an established part of the programme that it would have always been there in the background for every Doctor to come.
In fact it had become such a large part of new who that the only thing the 50th could be really about was the Time War and what the Doctor did during it. Even after 3 series none of Moffat's mythology has come close to the mythology of The Time War. That isn't a dig a Moffat by the way just that RTD's Time War concept was genius.
But Moffat's master stroke in the 50th was not to reset or reboot it for the previous Doctors, it's all still there, 9 and 10 and Hurt Doctor still believe they destroyed Galliifrey. So a viewer can go back and watch any of the shows before the 50th and they still stand, nothing has changed, Ecclestone's Doctor gas no idea that Gallifrey has been saved but 11, after the 50th and all future Doctors will be relieved of this burden.
The Bad Wolf arcs, for example, in previous episodes remains unchanged, everything remains unchanged right up to the 50th
A clever ’reset' move by Moffat. Bravo.
I'm not one of Moffats fans, infact I find some of his writing a little self indulgent at times. But I must admit, he cleverly tied up lots of loose ends, answered many questions and set the show on a new, but familiar path for series 8. I loved the special because the atmosphere in the cinema was outstanding. Everyone cheered and clapped at the end! It was magical. It really does feel Steven has just cleverly ended an eight year chapter of Time War burdens and whilst not changing DW too drastically, has shockingly included missing chapters from the Doctors past that can be explored again in the future. Bravo Moffat. Today I crown you a genius.
i am no fan of nu who. it is incoherent rubbish with none of the good qualities of old who. but this change happened with rtd. if you like, moffat is like a "tony blair" carrying on after rtd's far more important "thatcher" .........
..... any connection with science fiction has gone. it is now purely gothic fantasy and might as well be called harry potter or diskworld ....
i am no fan of nu who. it is incoherent rubbish with none of the good qualities of old who. but this change happened with rtd. if you like, moffat is like a "tony blair" carrying on after rtd's far more important "thatcher" .........
..... any connection with science fiction has gone. it is now purely gothic fantasy and might as well be called harry potter or diskworld ....
or discworld.
Also. If you claim DW to be gothic fantasy then you have no idea what that term means.
Moffat doesn't show disrespect to the past. But at the same time he does what he is there to do. He gives the show a future. And for me that is the most important achievement from tonights episode. He has given the show a future. Which is surely the whole point?
And how perfect that it is Tom who points Eleven in the right direction. A final crowning and moving and beautiful goodbye from the old guard to the future.
Gallifrey is back. Timelords are back. Enter Capaldi.
Sorry, and I don't wish to be rude, but this is utter nonsense. Bring Gallifrey back or don't bring Gallifrey back, it doesn't matter, Who would still have a future. It's existed for 8 years without Gallifrey. All it is is a plot device. The series would still continue with a different plot device.
I'm sorry but it's his job to change anything! A story that sticks to the same storyline will eventually become stagnant. The status quo MUST be in flux for the story to continue.
Sorry, and I don't wish to be rude, but this is utter nonsense. Bring Gallifrey back or don't bring Gallifrey back, it doesn't matter, Who would still have a future. It's existed for 8 years without Gallifrey. All it is is a plot device. The series would still continue with a different plot device.
Yes it would have a future. But what? The cosy format established since RTD took over couldn't last forever. We have had the whole last of time lords thing played out at length. And brilliantly so. But the reintroduction of Gallifrey and Timelords can and hopefully will give the show a whole new edge and direction. Especially for those who are not familiar with the Classic series. A new dynamic. Of course they could've come up with another way of changing things. But this seems a good one. And quite fitting all things considered.
Good. The time war was a stupid contrivance; that elevated the daleks to high (making stories involving them having to always be galactic in consequence; instead of just being able to have good old fashion contained stories like death to the daleks or dalek invasion of earth).
And it removed the time lords from use in stories.
It was a silly conceit to begin with. The doctor was already alone he was an exile. It didn't need that extra melodrama.
I agreed with the decision to kill off the time lords when they 'resumed' DW in 2005. For the sake of a fresh start it was spot on. It allowed a deeper emotionally scarred Doctor to develop and besides, too much Gallifreyan politics would have possibly turned off new fans.
Now however the 'Last of the timelords' arc has run its course and bringing them back would open up so many new possibilities. It would change the dynamic of the show which has now followed a pretty similar formula for over 8 years.The reset wasn't done too badly when compared with some others in Who history.
Anyway I feel that the War doctors sacrifice to save the universe from the time war is rendered moot by the fact that the Daleks kept popping up again anyway. If they can do it then why the time lords?
Good. The time war was a stupid contrivance; that elevated the daleks to high (making stories involving them having to always be galactic in consequence; instead of just being able to have good old fashion contained stories like death to the daleks or dalek invasion of earth).
And it removed the time lords from use in stories.
It was a silly conceit to begin with. The doctor was already alone he was an exile. It didn't need that extra melodrama.
very true. the entire gimmick of the dr weeping for lost gallifrey in each episode had been made completely pointless.
From the Point of View of Rassilon and Gallifrey the End of Time happened just before the events we saw in Day of the Doctor.
They know the Doctor is just about to destroy them with The Moment so set in motion their plan to escape which brings Gallifrey into the orbit of Earth.
They are then sent back to their own place in Time and Space.
Then the 13 Doctors appear and implement their new plan.
I really find this attitude that change in the show is someone a bad thing to be mind boggling. The whole show has been based on the idea of change down the years - the time lords and regeneration were not even concepts at the time the show was created, and it's thrived because of changes through the years. But now some fans can't cope with it all and act as though the show somehow has lived in a bubble for decades unaltered. It's bizarre.
Nothing wrong with a bit of history rewriting but if he's not careful he's gonna tie himself up in knots. In fact I think he already has. With Gallifrey and the timelords frozen then how could they come back and the whole Master storyline which brought about the end of the tenth doctor. If this never happened then surely it would affect everything from that moment onwards. That's a lot of loose ends to tie up.
The show still has to make sense and have some sort of continuity. You can't just change things and then say, 'oh that other thing? Oh we'll just gloss over that and pretend it never happened.' That's one way to annoy a lot of fans.
I was half expecting doctors 9,10 & 11 to be totally written out of history altogether last night. The War Doctor's change in decision bringing about a 'different' regeneration. In other words, Hurt to Capaldi and Capaldi being the new 9th (or 10th if you include Hurt's) doctor.
At least this way all loose ends would be tied up and we'd get more life out of the show before the dreaded 13th last generation. Of course we still have that one to tie up now as well. Technically the doctor can't have any more regenerations after Capaldi.
When the show came back, the absence of Gallifrey via the Time War was genius. It added a bit more flesh in the character development of the Doctor, Yes, he was already 'alone' but now without a home, he was truly alone.
And yes, having the Daleks coming back time and again lessened the impact of this Gallifreyan absence so I am glad that the 50th has allowed the future writers to explore and visit the Time Lords in a bit more depth BUT...
I also hope that Gallifrey won't become overused either in stories or plot lines. I personally like that the fact that they were out of the equation but were in the doctor's background.
Bringing them to the forefront now is a double edged sword. I hope, and pray the writers will do an admirable job, but at the same time, hope the keep some of the mystery hidden
So with the new 13th Doctor is that the end as the doctor can only regenerate 12 times?
... but we are now pretty certain that the Doctor will regenerate into the "Curator" and go into retirement sometime in the future.
If Steven Moffat has been clever he will have got Tom Baker to film a regeneration scene that could be used some time in the future.
When the time comes to mothball Doctor Who they could just regenerate the current Doctor into the Curator and slip quietly into retirement.
If Tom had also filmed a second scene where he started regenerating in the distant future he could come out of retirement and start the third era of Doctor Who.
Nothing wrong with a bit of history rewriting but if he's not careful he's gonna tie himself up in knots. In fact I think he already has. With Gallifrey and the timelords frozen then how could they come back and the whole Master storyline which brought about the end of the tenth doctor. If this never happened then surely it would affect everything from that moment onwards. That's a lot of loose ends to tie up.
The show still has to make sense and have some sort of continuity. You can't just change things and then say, 'oh that other thing? Oh we'll just gloss over that and pretend it never happened.' That's one way to annoy a lot of fans.
I was half expecting doctors 9,10 & 11 to be totally written out of history altogether last night. The War Doctor's change in decision bringing about a 'different' regeneration. In other words, Hurt to Capaldi and Capaldi being the new 9th (or 10th if you include Hurt's) doctor.
At least this way all loose ends would be tied up and we'd get more life out of the show before the dreaded 13th last generation. Of course we still have that one to tie up now as well. Technically the doctor can't have any more regenerations after Capaldi.
But, as was said in the actual episode, the events of TEOT happened concurrently - during 10's timeline. They happened before the Doctors trapped Gallifrey in the stasis cube. It was alluded to during the episode.
The High Council is in emergency session. They have plans of their own.
Rassilon was the leader of the High Council. Without spelling it out (as it wasn't needed), Moff told us that TEOT still happened, and was happening alongside what we were watching.
I really find this attitude that change in the show is someone a bad thing to be mind boggling. The whole show has been based on the idea of change down the years - the time lords and regeneration were not even concepts at the time the show was created, and it's thrived because of changes through the years. But now some fans can't cope with it all and act as though the show somehow has lived in a bubble for decades unaltered. It's bizarre.
old who was a mix of campbell/gernsbeck "hard" written sci fi and 60s british social liberation. whereas nu who is in the traditon of american fantasy tv. the current mob understand american tv but not traditional sci fi.
... but we are now pretty certain that the Doctor will regenerate into the "Curator" and go into retirement sometime in the future.
If Steven Moffat has been clever he will have got Tom Baker to film a regeneration scene that could be used some time in the future.
When the time comes to mothball Doctor Who they could just regenerate the current Doctor into the Curator and slip quietly into retirement.
If Tom had also filmed a second scene where he started regenerating in the distant future he could come out of retirement and start the third era of Doctor Who.
Comments
In fact it had become such a large part of new who that the only thing the 50th could be really about was the Time War and what the Doctor did during it. Even after 3 series none of Moffat's mythology has come close to the mythology of The Time War. That isn't a dig a Moffat by the way just that RTD's Time War concept was genius.
But Moffat's master stroke in the 50th was not to reset or reboot it for the previous Doctors, it's all still there, 9 and 10 and Hurt Doctor and 11 pre end of the 5oth still believe they destroyed Galliifrey. So a viewer can go back and watch any of the shows before the 50th and they still stand, nothing has changed, Ecclestone's Doctor has no idea that Gallifrey has been saved but 11, after the 50th and all future Doctors will be relieved of this burden.
The Bad Wolf arcs, for example, in previous episodes remains unchanged, everything remains unchanged right up to the 50th
A clever ’reset' move by Moffat. Bravo.
How could Gallifrey be saved and yet not come with the baggage of bringing back the Time Lords?
Enter The Day of The Doctor.
Couldn't have said it better myself, well done
I'm not one of Moffats fans, infact I find some of his writing a little self indulgent at times. But I must admit, he cleverly tied up lots of loose ends, answered many questions and set the show on a new, but familiar path for series 8. I loved the special because the atmosphere in the cinema was outstanding. Everyone cheered and clapped at the end! It was magical. It really does feel Steven has just cleverly ended an eight year chapter of Time War burdens and whilst not changing DW too drastically, has shockingly included missing chapters from the Doctors past that can be explored again in the future. Bravo Moffat. Today I crown you a genius.
..... any connection with science fiction has gone. it is now purely gothic fantasy and might as well be called harry potter or diskworld ....
or discworld.
Also. If you claim DW to be gothic fantasy then you have no idea what that term means.
Sorry, and I don't wish to be rude, but this is utter nonsense. Bring Gallifrey back or don't bring Gallifrey back, it doesn't matter, Who would still have a future. It's existed for 8 years without Gallifrey. All it is is a plot device. The series would still continue with a different plot device.
Absolutely best post of the evening
Yes it would have a future. But what? The cosy format established since RTD took over couldn't last forever. We have had the whole last of time lords thing played out at length. And brilliantly so. But the reintroduction of Gallifrey and Timelords can and hopefully will give the show a whole new edge and direction. Especially for those who are not familiar with the Classic series. A new dynamic. Of course they could've come up with another way of changing things. But this seems a good one. And quite fitting all things considered.
And it removed the time lords from use in stories.
It was a silly conceit to begin with. The doctor was already alone he was an exile. It didn't need that extra melodrama.
Now however the 'Last of the timelords' arc has run its course and bringing them back would open up so many new possibilities. It would change the dynamic of the show which has now followed a pretty similar formula for over 8 years.The reset wasn't done too badly when compared with some others in Who history.
Anyway I feel that the War doctors sacrifice to save the universe from the time war is rendered moot by the fact that the Daleks kept popping up again anyway. If they can do it then why the time lords?
not me. that is what rtd and moffat and gatiss repeatedly claim. but they are wrong and ignorant. and i doubt any of them has read much actual sf.
very true. the entire gimmick of the dr weeping for lost gallifrey in each episode had been made completely pointless.
^^^^ this is my interpritation
The show still has to make sense and have some sort of continuity. You can't just change things and then say, 'oh that other thing? Oh we'll just gloss over that and pretend it never happened.' That's one way to annoy a lot of fans.
I was half expecting doctors 9,10 & 11 to be totally written out of history altogether last night. The War Doctor's change in decision bringing about a 'different' regeneration. In other words, Hurt to Capaldi and Capaldi being the new 9th (or 10th if you include Hurt's) doctor.
At least this way all loose ends would be tied up and we'd get more life out of the show before the dreaded 13th last generation. Of course we still have that one to tie up now as well. Technically the doctor can't have any more regenerations after Capaldi.
When the show came back, the absence of Gallifrey via the Time War was genius. It added a bit more flesh in the character development of the Doctor, Yes, he was already 'alone' but now without a home, he was truly alone.
And yes, having the Daleks coming back time and again lessened the impact of this Gallifreyan absence so I am glad that the 50th has allowed the future writers to explore and visit the Time Lords in a bit more depth BUT...
I also hope that Gallifrey won't become overused either in stories or plot lines. I personally like that the fact that they were out of the equation but were in the doctor's background.
Bringing them to the forefront now is a double edged sword. I hope, and pray the writers will do an admirable job, but at the same time, hope the keep some of the mystery hidden
... but we are now pretty certain that the Doctor will regenerate into the "Curator" and go into retirement sometime in the future.
If Steven Moffat has been clever he will have got Tom Baker to film a regeneration scene that could be used some time in the future.
When the time comes to mothball Doctor Who they could just regenerate the current Doctor into the Curator and slip quietly into retirement.
If Tom had also filmed a second scene where he started regenerating in the distant future he could come out of retirement and start the third era of Doctor Who.
But, as was said in the actual episode, the events of TEOT happened concurrently - during 10's timeline. They happened before the Doctors trapped Gallifrey in the stasis cube. It was alluded to during the episode.
Rassilon was the leader of the High Council. Without spelling it out (as it wasn't needed), Moff told us that TEOT still happened, and was happening alongside what we were watching.
old who was a mix of campbell/gernsbeck "hard" written sci fi and 60s british social liberation. whereas nu who is in the traditon of american fantasy tv. the current mob understand american tv but not traditional sci fi.
I like your thinking.:)