Dominic was very brave to take this on. I am puzzled though, as to why Dominic hasn't had treatment for his scoliosis such as a rod being placed in his spine. I think, though I am not sure, that Prince Andrew's younger daughter, Princess Eugenie had the same problem but that it has been cured with operations when she was younger.
wasn't the flesh on the head reconstructed to a standard thickness for a European male, so although it would be an accurate likeness, it wouldn't necessarily give an indication of how fat or thin the face was at the time of death?.
They'd discovered Richard had roundworms and although everyone else would have had them too they cause anaemia and malnutrition. If having roundworms makes someone vomit, lose their appetite and have diarrhoea he may not have been at peak fitness but being huge would seem even less likely.
Richard would have trained from the age of seven and would have had 25 years of experience by the time he rode into battle although it was interesting to see how well Dominic responded to everything he was asked to do.
I’m still having difficulty believing it was a few years of drinking which finished off Richard when his portraits don’t show the slightest signs of him being overweight or flabby and nor did his reconstructed head .. which I’ve seen in flesh so to speak.
despairing of people who know how to listen to a documentary, now.
With so much of written history being written by the victor (ie: Henry VII), it is improbable that we will ever get an accurate portrayal of things as they really occurred.
We now know that Shakespeare did a hatchet job on Richard III, but then again, the Immortal Bard was living in the time of the Tudor dynasty and probably didn't want a trip to the Tower himself. Best to play ball where the possibility of charges of sedition are concerned.
Although science is improving all the time, and it is possible to ascertain many things to a reasonable degree of accuracy, some things are still within the realms of speculation.
I enjoyed watching how modern day armourers dealt with the technical difficulties of manufacturing armour for a person with Scoliosis. With modern day technology at their disposal, they still had a tricky job on their hands. Imagine how much more difficult the task would have been in the fifteenth century.
An enjoyable documentary and kudos to Dominic with the way he dealt with the demands placed on him. Top bloke.
With so much of written history being written by the victor (ie: Henry VII), it is improbable that we will ever get an accurate portrayal of things as they really occurred.
We now know that Shakespeare did a hatchet job on Richard III, but then again, the Immortal Bard was living in the time of the Tudor dynasty and probably didn't want a trip to the Tower himself. Best to play ball where the possibility of charges of sedition are concerned.
You don't know what you are talking about. Sulla and you need to log off from the thread.
You don't know what you are talking about. Sulla and you need to log off from the thread.
Corkhead is entirely accurate in his description of the consequence's of both the probability that the full and true story of Richard III will never be known, and the possible ramifications to Shakespeare if he made out that Richard was anything other than a bitter twisted usurper.
Corkhead is entirely accurate in his description of the consequence's of both the probability that the full and true story of Richard III will never be known, and the possible ramifications to Shakespeare if he made out that Richard was anything other than a bitter twisted usurper.
I always despair of the classicists who use Shakespeare as a serious historical reference for events that often took place long before his lifetime. Bit like using a Hollywood blockbuster - Braveheart?
Strange that we all got different things from this documentary.
I would have thought that little armour still exists because if it was thrown away it would have rusted and disintegrated.
The armourers were very skilled and I assume they would have made each suit of armour to fit the person, so making a suit for Richard would not have been a problem for them.
Just about everyone had worm, so him having them was not a surprise.
The food he ate was eaten by most people high up in society, as was the wine. Beer and wine was drunk more often than water because water wasn't the quality we get now. Because they drank so much it, it wouldn't have had the same effect on them as it would on us.
As for why he died, what I got from the programme was that the restriction of the rib cage for someone with scoliosis meant that his breathing suffered, even if he had trained throughout his life. That restriction would still be there and the reason he died was because he was dismounted and didn't have the stamina needed for hand to hand fighting.
Dominic was brilliant in the tasks he undertook. Having been a horse rider, I was particularly impressed by his courage and the way he took to it and his ability to use a lance.
Dominic was very brave to take this on. I am puzzled though, as to why Dominic hasn't had treatment for his scoliosis such as a rod being placed in his spine. I think, though I am not sure, that Prince Andrew's younger daughter, Princess Eugenie had the same problem but that it has been cured with operations when she was younger.
Reported elsewhere that Dominic has another undisclosed health condition that made an operation for this too risky for him so he decided not to have it.
Calling him 'dissolute' for drinking red wine throughout the day and eating high status food was the height of absurdity.
For anyone who didn't see it the basic conclusion was 'Richard III lost the battle of Bosworth not because he was a hunchkback but because he was a drunk'. It was shoddy stuff, even by Ch4's standards.
Quite. Drinking red wine doesn't make you a villain. Of course, killing young princes does...
Quite. Drinking red wine doesn't make you a villain. Of course, killing young princes does...
There's no evidence that he murdered his nephews, or that they were murdered at all. They disappeared. That's all anyone knows for certain.
And there's no evidence that he was a drunkard or particularly gluttonous - he'd have been fat very quickly if he was. His frame was small and slight, and he's described by people who knew and met him, as being quite thin. Under Appearance:
It's entirely possible that he drank a little more wine than most as a painkiller for the scoliosis. And there are contemporary accounts of a number of occasions in which he forgot to eat at all, and at banquets in which he 'ate little'.
He was also reported by his contemporaries as a man 'of simple tastes', so just because he had access to rich foods and sometimes ate them, doesn't mean that he ate a lot, or indulged frequently.
They are missing out a lot of detail regarding the Battle of Bosworth.
For them to say he was a drinker in between doesn't do it for me.
They were all drinkers, they lived off Ale, of various strengths and Wine, they didn't drink water, it was too polluted. They were given small ale or wine, even as children then. There didn't have much else. Also for his diet, it was a diet of a Duke and a King. It is unthinkable now to eat Swan but it was normal then.
As someone with scoliosis - albeit not as severe as Richard's and Dominic's - I could relate to the physical limitations highlighted. I was impressed with Dominic's horse riding considering he has a much more prominent curve in his spine while I find it hard to just ride a bike. As Richard would've had much more training and experience with horses from an earlier age it shows that, despite his condition, he would've been a very capable rider, especially using a medieval saddle rather than the more shallow modern one Dominic started on. I immediately noticed the medieval saddle had more support for around the hips so knew it would be much more comfortable to ride. If most saddles at the time were of that design then it would automatically cancel out a huge level of physical hindrance scoliosis might cause during horse riding, which may account for contemporary reports describing Richard as a good horseman. He was, in a sense, fortunate to have lived at a time when that saddle design was in use.
In terms of the armour, as shown, a full suit was made up of many pieces and cast/hammered to fit the individual. Much was made about his scoliosis being 'hidden' by the armour because it was especially made to accommodate his shape, but was Richard actually ashamed of it? Dominic's armour showed that Richard's was probably fitted and made to allow for similar mobility - the basic requirement when using full armour - but also just happened to not show much evidence of the true body shape underneath. It doesn't mean there was actually any thought put to especially disguise his scoliosis on a visual basis.
So considering how some contemporary medieval technical design would have as a by-product helped Richard physically cope with his condition and visually obscure it, it seems his scoliosis was something of an open fact - rather than a dark secret he tried to keep covered - not worth commenting on as he appears to have just got on with it. It's only after the battle and his death that it seems to become something to mock and perhaps Tudor propaganda simply perpetuated it, adding the detail of the withered arm which we now know is not true.
The wine consumption, in particular the timing of its increase, was interesting. Of course higher levels of alcohol consumption was much more common at the time due to not so clean water, but that doesn't really account for the dramatic increase with Richard in the relatively short space of time suggested by the bone and teeth tests. The tests seemed to reveal a distinct difference around the time he became king. For me it seems too much of a coincidence that this appeared to have happened around the same time of the disappearance of Edward V and his younger brother, Richard of York. The possible scenarios that come to my mind...
1. Richard secretly ordered the murder of the princes by a hired assassin and he started to drink more in a bid to block out the guilt.
2. A drinking binge led to him killing the princes himself and he continued to drink to block out the guilt.
3. The princes unexpectedly disappear but not by order of Richard. Unable to find them and not wanting to leave the throne empty, he assumes the crown but starts drinking to block out the guilt of not being able to protect his nephews and taking Edward V place in muddy circumstances.
Purely speculation on my part obviously. Would be interesting to do tests on the bones found at the bottom of a staircase at the tower in the 17th century to see if there's a crossover in DNA.
As for Shakespeare's portrayal of Richard, it's worth remembering that Shakespeare's history plays actually cover the whole period of the Wars of the Roses. They just weren't necessarily produced in order. However, there seems to be a sign of favouritism towards the Lancastrian side throughout all those plays - not just Richard III - which of course makes complete sense because they were written during the reign of Elizabeth I who was descendant of the Lancastrian victory. The whole period was still quite fresh for study when Shakespeare was at school so he had no need to add to the stories of Richard that would've been circling at the time. He was just able to put them together in the format of a play. He had no reason to be sympathetic towards Richard or create fresh propaganda against him.
I'm not sure anything should be read into Richard's drinking, he probably only drank a normal amount for someone of that status and remember beer and wine were nowhere near the strength of ours today. Even if he was drinking more than usual I would think the pressures of Kingship and the fact that he lost his child and wife were reasons enough without suggesting it is proof of guilt over the princes.
Like some others I was irritated that the fact that Richard had trained hard as a soldier since he was a boy was not mentioned. His scoliosis had probably worsened gradually over the years too so he would have had plenty of time to adapt to it in a way that Dominic didn't.
All the same it was very interesting to see how little his disability would have been obvious visually or practically, once he was on a horse. Even off a horse and out of armour it wouldn't have been as obvious as if wearing modern clothes, as medieval robes and cloaks etc were quite voluminous.
Dominic was brilliant in this documentary.
The programme was ok but did we really need to be told that there were no anti inflammatory drugs available at this time so Richard would have had chronic pain from the scoliosis and resulting arthritis? Good job Richard wasn't discovered lying on top of an empty pack of nurofen.:)
Dominic was brilliant in this documentary.
The programme was ok but did we really need to be told that there were no anti inflammatory drugs available at this time so Richard would have had chronic pain from the scoliosis and resulting arthritis? Good job Richard wasn't discovered lying on top of an empty pack of nurofen.:)
Or that headache he must have had from the archaeologist.
Dominic was brilliant in this documentary.
The programme was ok but did we really need to be told that there were no anti inflammatory drugs available at this time so Richard would have had chronic pain from the scoliosis and resulting arthritis? Good job Richard wasn't discovered lying on top of an empty pack of nurofen.:)
I think that did need to be said.
Many people are unaware the that medication such as aspirin wasn't available until the mid 1800s, although the analgesic properties of willow bark and medicinal qualities of many herbs was known.
Medicine as we know it is relatively recent. For instance the ABO blood grouping system wasn't developed until the early 1900s, and even then doctors didn't know why some people of say group A died when given group A blood. The rhesus factor wasn't discovered until the mid 1900s and they realised that Rh positive blood was responsible when given to a Rh negative person although the other way round was fine.
Reported elsewhere that Dominic has another undisclosed health condition that made an operation for this too risky for him so he decided not to have it.
Ok, thanks for this. I must admit to be very tired when watching the programme last night and probably didn't take in this bit of information.
So it turns out he was drunk? Well it makes sense because he was an accomplished experienced solider who wouldn't normally make that big of a mistake. Probably wasn't thinking clearly because of his problem
Dominic was brilliant in this documentary.
The programme was ok but did we really need to be told that there were no anti inflammatory drugs available at this time so Richard would have had chronic pain from the scoliosis and resulting arthritis? Good job Richard wasn't discovered lying on top of an empty pack of nurofen.:)
Comments
They'd discovered Richard had roundworms and although everyone else would have had them too they cause anaemia and malnutrition. If having roundworms makes someone vomit, lose their appetite and have diarrhoea he may not have been at peak fitness but being huge would seem even less likely.
I completely agree with you.
No...i don't think you know the facts...don't send in a comment until you know them..
despairing of people who know how to listen to a documentary, now.
We now know that Shakespeare did a hatchet job on Richard III, but then again, the Immortal Bard was living in the time of the Tudor dynasty and probably didn't want a trip to the Tower himself. Best to play ball where the possibility of charges of sedition are concerned.
Although science is improving all the time, and it is possible to ascertain many things to a reasonable degree of accuracy, some things are still within the realms of speculation.
I enjoyed watching how modern day armourers dealt with the technical difficulties of manufacturing armour for a person with Scoliosis. With modern day technology at their disposal, they still had a tricky job on their hands. Imagine how much more difficult the task would have been in the fifteenth century.
An enjoyable documentary and kudos to Dominic with the way he dealt with the demands placed on him. Top bloke.
You don't know what you are talking about. Sulla and you need to log off from the thread.
Corkhead is entirely accurate in his description of the consequence's of both the probability that the full and true story of Richard III will never be known, and the possible ramifications to Shakespeare if he made out that Richard was anything other than a bitter twisted usurper.
I always despair of the classicists who use Shakespeare as a serious historical reference for events that often took place long before his lifetime. Bit like using a Hollywood blockbuster - Braveheart?
I wasn't just listening, I was watching. It could be you just dozed off.
I would have thought that little armour still exists because if it was thrown away it would have rusted and disintegrated.
The armourers were very skilled and I assume they would have made each suit of armour to fit the person, so making a suit for Richard would not have been a problem for them.
Just about everyone had worm, so him having them was not a surprise.
The food he ate was eaten by most people high up in society, as was the wine. Beer and wine was drunk more often than water because water wasn't the quality we get now. Because they drank so much it, it wouldn't have had the same effect on them as it would on us.
As for why he died, what I got from the programme was that the restriction of the rib cage for someone with scoliosis meant that his breathing suffered, even if he had trained throughout his life. That restriction would still be there and the reason he died was because he was dismounted and didn't have the stamina needed for hand to hand fighting.
Dominic was brilliant in the tasks he undertook. Having been a horse rider, I was particularly impressed by his courage and the way he took to it and his ability to use a lance.
Reported elsewhere that Dominic has another undisclosed health condition that made an operation for this too risky for him so he decided not to have it.
Quite. Drinking red wine doesn't make you a villain. Of course, killing young princes does...
There's no evidence that he murdered his nephews, or that they were murdered at all. They disappeared. That's all anyone knows for certain.
And there's no evidence that he was a drunkard or particularly gluttonous - he'd have been fat very quickly if he was. His frame was small and slight, and he's described by people who knew and met him, as being quite thin. Under Appearance:
http://www.richard111.com/what_history_has_to_say_about_ri.htm
It's entirely possible that he drank a little more wine than most as a painkiller for the scoliosis. And there are contemporary accounts of a number of occasions in which he forgot to eat at all, and at banquets in which he 'ate little'.
He was also reported by his contemporaries as a man 'of simple tastes', so just because he had access to rich foods and sometimes ate them, doesn't mean that he ate a lot, or indulged frequently.
I saw her and the clown with all the hair, but I think they were clips from the original programme.
They were all drinkers, they lived off Ale, of various strengths and Wine, they didn't drink water, it was too polluted. They were given small ale or wine, even as children then. There didn't have much else. Also for his diet, it was a diet of a Duke and a King. It is unthinkable now to eat Swan but it was normal then.
Very interesting link, thank you !
In terms of the armour, as shown, a full suit was made up of many pieces and cast/hammered to fit the individual. Much was made about his scoliosis being 'hidden' by the armour because it was especially made to accommodate his shape, but was Richard actually ashamed of it? Dominic's armour showed that Richard's was probably fitted and made to allow for similar mobility - the basic requirement when using full armour - but also just happened to not show much evidence of the true body shape underneath. It doesn't mean there was actually any thought put to especially disguise his scoliosis on a visual basis.
So considering how some contemporary medieval technical design would have as a by-product helped Richard physically cope with his condition and visually obscure it, it seems his scoliosis was something of an open fact - rather than a dark secret he tried to keep covered - not worth commenting on as he appears to have just got on with it. It's only after the battle and his death that it seems to become something to mock and perhaps Tudor propaganda simply perpetuated it, adding the detail of the withered arm which we now know is not true.
The wine consumption, in particular the timing of its increase, was interesting. Of course higher levels of alcohol consumption was much more common at the time due to not so clean water, but that doesn't really account for the dramatic increase with Richard in the relatively short space of time suggested by the bone and teeth tests. The tests seemed to reveal a distinct difference around the time he became king. For me it seems too much of a coincidence that this appeared to have happened around the same time of the disappearance of Edward V and his younger brother, Richard of York. The possible scenarios that come to my mind...
1. Richard secretly ordered the murder of the princes by a hired assassin and he started to drink more in a bid to block out the guilt.
2. A drinking binge led to him killing the princes himself and he continued to drink to block out the guilt.
3. The princes unexpectedly disappear but not by order of Richard. Unable to find them and not wanting to leave the throne empty, he assumes the crown but starts drinking to block out the guilt of not being able to protect his nephews and taking Edward V place in muddy circumstances.
Purely speculation on my part obviously. Would be interesting to do tests on the bones found at the bottom of a staircase at the tower in the 17th century to see if there's a crossover in DNA.
As for Shakespeare's portrayal of Richard, it's worth remembering that Shakespeare's history plays actually cover the whole period of the Wars of the Roses. They just weren't necessarily produced in order. However, there seems to be a sign of favouritism towards the Lancastrian side throughout all those plays - not just Richard III - which of course makes complete sense because they were written during the reign of Elizabeth I who was descendant of the Lancastrian victory. The whole period was still quite fresh for study when Shakespeare was at school so he had no need to add to the stories of Richard that would've been circling at the time. He was just able to put them together in the format of a play. He had no reason to be sympathetic towards Richard or create fresh propaganda against him.
Like some others I was irritated that the fact that Richard had trained hard as a soldier since he was a boy was not mentioned. His scoliosis had probably worsened gradually over the years too so he would have had plenty of time to adapt to it in a way that Dominic didn't.
All the same it was very interesting to see how little his disability would have been obvious visually or practically, once he was on a horse. Even off a horse and out of armour it wouldn't have been as obvious as if wearing modern clothes, as medieval robes and cloaks etc were quite voluminous.
The programme was ok but did we really need to be told that there were no anti inflammatory drugs available at this time so Richard would have had chronic pain from the scoliosis and resulting arthritis? Good job Richard wasn't discovered lying on top of an empty pack of nurofen.:)
Or that headache he must have had from the archaeologist.
Many people are unaware the that medication such as aspirin wasn't available until the mid 1800s, although the analgesic properties of willow bark and medicinal qualities of many herbs was known.
Medicine as we know it is relatively recent. For instance the ABO blood grouping system wasn't developed until the early 1900s, and even then doctors didn't know why some people of say group A died when given group A blood. The rhesus factor wasn't discovered until the mid 1900s and they realised that Rh positive blood was responsible when given to a Rh negative person although the other way round was fine.
Ok, thanks for this. I must admit to be very tired when watching the programme last night and probably didn't take in this bit of information.