The classic liberal - 'polls are meaningless of they are about muslims.'
Included in the greatest hits:
What is a poll? Surely unless every human is asked, it is not valid.
How many people were polled?
Only 1000 people asked? Why not 2 million?
Where did the poll take place?
Who was asked What type of Muslims?
Were the people polled, polled in a muslim area? (my favorite)
Polls can be manipulated depending on who pays for them.
How do we know Ipsos Mori did not just invent the results?
Amazing how liberals say nothing about election exit polls, but when the poll asks muslims a question, it is conspiracy central.
Well do you want to keep an open mind and read about the YouGov method of polling (which I'm sure you'll discount as amateur and irrelevant anyway) or not?
If the former then a discussion of the poll and its methods can be found here:
YouGov's methods aren't perfect, as the article explains, but its results have often been accurate. And it's one of the few feasible methods of polling the muslim population anyway: an online survey with the results weighted according to age, gender, etc.
I'm not sure it's sensible to dismiss polling evidence merely on the grounds that it doesn't fit into your pre-existing ideas.
How about answering my questions direct rather than giving me a link at this late hour?
Its not me that is closed minded on this either. Its been 13 years since 9/11 and muslims on the whole have been getting it in the neck ever since then and they are the biggest victims of "islamic" terrorism too, not that anyone not following news/politics would realise that with the way muslims are all tarred with the same brush as terrorists!
The classic liberal - 'polls are meaningless of they are about muslims.'
Included in the greatest hits:
What is a poll? Surely unless every human is asked, it is not valid.
How many people were polled?
Only 1000 people asked? Why not 2 million?
Where did the poll take place?
Who was asked What type of Muslims?
Were the people polled, polled in a muslim area? (my favorite)
Polls can be manipulated depending on who pays for them.
How do we know Ipsos Mori did not just invent the results?
Amazing how liberals say nothing about election exit polls, but when the poll asks muslims a question, it is conspiracy central.
I'm seeing people "moan" more and more about liberals/the left as if the right wing have been proved so right on everything when in fact they haven't! Thatcher only got into power and stayed in because she bribed Labour voters with cheap council houses. Great policy that was - NOT! At least half a trillion its cost in housing benefits since 79!
How about answering my questions direct rather than giving me a link at this late hour?
Its not me that is closed minded on this either. Its been 13 years since 9/11 and muslims on the whole have been getting it in the neck ever since then and they are the biggest victims of "islamic" terrorism too, not that anyone not following news/politics would realise that with the way muslims are all tarred with the same brush as terrorists!
I thought the 'moderate' muslims were supposed to be policing their own communities since 9/11 and yet 1500 (at least) have already gone off to fight for the Islamic State. The 'moderates' don't seem to be doing a very good job, do they? Would they prefer the police stepped in and did it for them? The fact that one of the sub-humans involved in the recent outrage is from London and was apparently born and raised in England sickens and angers me beyond description.
[QUOTE=Kapellmeister;74385126]I thought the 'moderate' muslims were supposed to be policing their own communities since 9/11 and yet 1500 (at least) have already gone off to fight for the Islamic State. The 'moderates' don't seem to be doing a very good job, do they? Would they prefer the police stepped in and did it for them? The fact that one of the sub-humans involved in the recent outrage is from London and was apparently born and raised in England sickens and angers me beyond description.[/QUOTE]
Who told you that?! That might be the unrealistic expectation by those moaning about muslims who will never stop moaning about muslims but muslims never said they will self police themselves. It can't be done.
Most people of any background will know or be acquainted with a few hundred people at the very most. How on earth could any muslim know what millions of other muslims are doing and around the country? No one can take the law into their own hands either, thats the job of the Police to uphold the law. All of this you could have worked out for yourself.
Thank the lord the Americans are now getting Chuck Hagel to speak for them. At last, there is a chance to hear someone with a bit of substance and common sense. Not that the message that is being given by him is all that comforting. But it probably does make sense to make allies in the Middle East and to work extremely long and hard at it. As far as the domestic situations are concerned, toughness is best. There really needs to be a clampdown on communication, between the younger ones especially, and for swift and harsh action to be taken on incitement.
At the same time, it should be done as if it does not carry huge amounts of significance. Otherwise, it boosts already inflated egos and promotes oddball sympathy. I think we should be updating the laws on racism so that it becomes an offence to issue statements that are in opposition to everyone other than that individual's race or creed. It seems to me that the legislation is currently geared to tackling attacks on one specific race or creed and in that way it could have its limitations. If you are against everyone but your own, that isn't less racist. It is more so.
Who told you that?! That might be the unrealistic expectation by those moaning about muslims who will never stop moaning about muslims but muslims never said they will self police themselves. It can't be done.
Most people of any background will know or be acquainted with a few hundred people at the very most. How on earth could any muslim know what millions of other muslims are doing and around the country? No one can take the law into their own hands either, thats the job of the Police to uphold the law. All of this you could have worked out for yourself.
Then we'll have to do it for them because these 'British' born extremists will be stopped one way or another. And let's not be foolish and naive. Someone, somewhere in London will know exactly who that creature in the video was. Many muslims live in tightly-knit communities centered around the local mosque. People will know. If they choose not to tell the authorities then that's on their own conscience but let's not pretend someone doesn't know.
Thank the lord the Americans are now getting Chuck Hagel to speak for them. At last, there is a chance to hear someone with a bit of substance and common sense. Not that the message that is being given by him is all that comforting. But it probably does make sense to make allies in the Middle East and to work extremely long and hard at it. As far as the domestic situations are concerned, toughness is best. There really needs to be a clampdown on communication, between the younger ones especially, and for swift and harsh action to be taken on incitement.
At the same time, it should be done as if it does not carry huge amounts of significance. Otherwise, it boosts already inflated egos and promotes oddball sympathy. I think we should be updating the laws on racism so that it becomes an offence to issue statements that are in opposition to everyone other than that individual's race or creed. It seems to me that the legislation is currently geared to tackling attacks on one specific race or creed and in that way it could have its limitations. If you are against everyone but your own, that isn't less racist. It is more so.
The problem is, as has been pointed out to me several times (and it's a view I have some sympathy with), any clampdown has the potential to alienate the muslim youth even more than they are already, and many muslim youths, even so-called 'moderate' ones, already have some pretty extreme views as it is.
It is, as surely most people are now acknowledging, an absolutely unholy mess. We have a large minority in the population from which some exceptionally vile people are emerging. It's like being barefoot in the middle of a room and surrounded by drawing pins, and whichever way you walk is going to be painful. I don't know how we've let our society get into such a state (and most Western societies are in a similar state).
The problem is, as has been pointed out to me several times (and it's a view I have some sympathy with), any clampdown has the potential to alienate the muslim youth even more than they are already, and many muslim youths, even so-called 'moderate' ones, already have some pretty extreme views as it is.
It is, as surely most people are now acknowledging, an absolutely unholy mess. We have a large minority in the population from which some exceptionally vile people are emerging. It's like being barefoot in the middle of a room and surrounded by drawing pins, and whichever way you walk is going to be painful. I don't know how we've let our society get into such a state (and most Western societies are in a similar state).
Yes, I accept that, but I also believe that if you are concerned that people might veer to such a gross extent, then you have effectively lost those ones anyway. Just for them to hover on that sort of brink is beyond cajoling and persuasion. They know they can mess everyone around. Consequently, I think you just have to make sure that controls are action focussed. Apply very firm action when - and only when - the line is crossed and with no leeway. That line also needs to be moved so that forms of incitement that are currently tolerated are no longer tolerated.
While some of this has arisen because of social and demographic changes, not least in a far too rapid and non-discriminating immigration, it is also symptomatic of changes in all of liberal society. Too many white British middle class parents display inappropriate pride in being told what to do by their kids. They think for some reason it is clever, presumably because it is different from the past. I would say that was particularly true of the professional movers and shakers. No doubt they want their offspring to self-promote in a competitive society. They might view earlier normal disciplinary arrangements not so much as wrong as non-trendy but to my mind that in itself is an adolescent stance. It is also cringe making in that it maintains a sort of 1960s position as if it is still cutting edge. One of the biggest barriers is that large numbers of the current middle aged in powerful positions never grew up.
Additionally, in culture, vast sums of money are made by the young middle aged in promoting culture that isn't so much aggressive as violent and spiteful. At least channelled aggression has rules. Again, they play to a very young mindset and lock young people in. The latter might be experiencing adult life earlier in a variety of ways but there is often no adult mentality that goes with it. Much of what we tend to call adult behaviour is juvenile behaviour when it is in the absence of adult emotions. And in workplaces, promotion is given to the young often ahead of time. Older folk are advised that they have to work to an older age. But when the Prime Ministers are elected in their early 40s and ex professionals are on shop tills at 60 then clearly wider society has lost the plot. Being twisted and turned on its head, it makes itself ripe for aberrant twists on the margins. Much of it needs to be reversed - and fast.
As an adjunct, what we get these days is a political argument between people who want to be tough - that tends to mean they have a knee-jerk preference for excessive military style action - and other people who are instinctively cautious and criticised by the first for being soft. Frankly, neither is great. As soon as people indicate they are tough talking and acting, it shows that they are as brittle in character as those who would do nothing. No. What we want isn't softness or toughness. It is strength. Strength of character is what is needed in leaders. Arguably that only comes from a steady normality in their own behaviour and world view and a proven ability to put ALL others first.
Unfortunately quite a large number of 'moderate' muslims have admitted that they wouldn't inform the authorities if they were aware either of radicalisation going on at a mosque or of an impending terrorist attack. Only 73% would inform the authorities if they were aware of a terrorist attack. Only 47%, less than half, would inform the authorities of radicalisation at a local mosque. That's 1,500,000 muslims who wouldn't inform the authorities in the latter instance. These numbers are enormous. It's not just one or two.
In fact a third of 'moderate' muslims, according to polling, believe that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end". A third of our current muslim population is nearly one million people. 16,000 believe Western culture should be overthrown using violence.
Would it be right to say all the figures , percentages quoted are reflecting those that ADMITTED they would do those things , think that way . The reality is, it is much worse than that . How dispicable that any muslim Would not inform authorities of a terrorist attack . The so called " moderate Muslims " are not so moderate it seems .
THey're generally referred to as Kenyan or Ugandan Asians
Why are they never referred to as Africans? Why is yasmin allah bybrown never described as being an African? It seems she prefers to be everything else other then what she really is.
Why are they never referred to as Africans? Why is yasmin allah bybrown never described as being an African? It seems she prefers to be everything else other then what she really is.
Probably because she relates to her Asian roots and customs.
Weak borders here won't stop fanatics from coming home, former immigration chief claims
*Chris Hobbs intercepted suspected criminals at UK airports for 10 years
*Warns Islamist fighters who fled 'under the radar' would be 'welcomed home'
*Raised terrifying prospect that they could use terror tactics on UK streets
*More than 500 young Britons are feared to be fighting for ISIS
The UK’s borders offer ‘no hurdles’ for British jihadis returning from Iraq and Syria intent on launching a ‘massacre of the innocents’, it was claimed last night.
A former policeman warned that Islamist fighters who had sneaked out of the country ‘under the radar’ of the police and security services would be ‘welcomed home’ by inadequate immigration controls at British airports.
And he raised the terrifying prospect that unknown extremists could cause carnage on UK streets using terror tactics learned on Middle East battlefields, such as building homemade bombs.
So the fact that some one has had am extremely long holiday in Turkey would not ring any alarm bells?
I suppose they would just walk through anyway as the computerised border system was scrapped and this week we found out it has cost taxpayers hundreds of millions.
If you had read the context and the wording you would know that I am not suggesting that a person with the correct papers is not a British citizen. How many times does one have to say it? Having the papers doesn't automatically make them 'British'. I know its hard to follow, but do try.
Hard to follow? Sure is.
You are saying that not all British citizens are 'British' (your inverted commas).
Who in your world defines what being 'British' is then?
Why are we seeing so many young British men going off to join IS? First we had the video with the guy from Aberdeen a month or so ago, now the beheading gang. What is amiss that Britain seems to have so many in the limelight (so to speak)? Is it a reaction to their treatment here or is it all down to radicalisation?
I don't understand why they think they've been badly treated here, we seem to bend over backwards for every ethnic minority !
Apart from being treated as a homogeneous group who are all deemed to be terrorists? Perhaps some then think 'may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb' look into it more and then join up.
I don't understand why they think they've been badly treated here, we seem to bend over backwards for every ethnic minority !
Indeed and now the rest of us will have to suffer with further police state laws and restrictions being put in place, all for our "protection" I have no idea what but I'm sure they will come.
Comments
Included in the greatest hits:
What is a poll? Surely unless every human is asked, it is not valid.
How many people were polled?
Only 1000 people asked? Why not 2 million?
Where did the poll take place?
Who was asked What type of Muslims?
Were the people polled, polled in a muslim area? (my favorite)
Polls can be manipulated depending on who pays for them.
How do we know Ipsos Mori did not just invent the results?
Amazing how liberals say nothing about election exit polls, but when the poll asks muslims a question, it is conspiracy central.
How about answering my questions direct rather than giving me a link at this late hour?
Its not me that is closed minded on this either. Its been 13 years since 9/11 and muslims on the whole have been getting it in the neck ever since then and they are the biggest victims of "islamic" terrorism too, not that anyone not following news/politics would realise that with the way muslims are all tarred with the same brush as terrorists!
I'm seeing people "moan" more and more about liberals/the left as if the right wing have been proved so right on everything when in fact they haven't! Thatcher only got into power and stayed in because she bribed Labour voters with cheap council houses. Great policy that was - NOT! At least half a trillion its cost in housing benefits since 79!
I thought the 'moderate' muslims were supposed to be policing their own communities since 9/11 and yet 1500 (at least) have already gone off to fight for the Islamic State. The 'moderates' don't seem to be doing a very good job, do they? Would they prefer the police stepped in and did it for them? The fact that one of the sub-humans involved in the recent outrage is from London and was apparently born and raised in England sickens and angers me beyond description.
Who told you that?! That might be the unrealistic expectation by those moaning about muslims who will never stop moaning about muslims but muslims never said they will self police themselves. It can't be done.
Most people of any background will know or be acquainted with a few hundred people at the very most. How on earth could any muslim know what millions of other muslims are doing and around the country? No one can take the law into their own hands either, thats the job of the Police to uphold the law. All of this you could have worked out for yourself.
At the same time, it should be done as if it does not carry huge amounts of significance. Otherwise, it boosts already inflated egos and promotes oddball sympathy. I think we should be updating the laws on racism so that it becomes an offence to issue statements that are in opposition to everyone other than that individual's race or creed. It seems to me that the legislation is currently geared to tackling attacks on one specific race or creed and in that way it could have its limitations. If you are against everyone but your own, that isn't less racist. It is more so.
Then we'll have to do it for them because these 'British' born extremists will be stopped one way or another. And let's not be foolish and naive. Someone, somewhere in London will know exactly who that creature in the video was. Many muslims live in tightly-knit communities centered around the local mosque. People will know. If they choose not to tell the authorities then that's on their own conscience but let's not pretend someone doesn't know.
The problem is, as has been pointed out to me several times (and it's a view I have some sympathy with), any clampdown has the potential to alienate the muslim youth even more than they are already, and many muslim youths, even so-called 'moderate' ones, already have some pretty extreme views as it is.
It is, as surely most people are now acknowledging, an absolutely unholy mess. We have a large minority in the population from which some exceptionally vile people are emerging. It's like being barefoot in the middle of a room and surrounded by drawing pins, and whichever way you walk is going to be painful. I don't know how we've let our society get into such a state (and most Western societies are in a similar state).
Yes, I accept that, but I also believe that if you are concerned that people might veer to such a gross extent, then you have effectively lost those ones anyway. Just for them to hover on that sort of brink is beyond cajoling and persuasion. They know they can mess everyone around. Consequently, I think you just have to make sure that controls are action focussed. Apply very firm action when - and only when - the line is crossed and with no leeway. That line also needs to be moved so that forms of incitement that are currently tolerated are no longer tolerated.
While some of this has arisen because of social and demographic changes, not least in a far too rapid and non-discriminating immigration, it is also symptomatic of changes in all of liberal society. Too many white British middle class parents display inappropriate pride in being told what to do by their kids. They think for some reason it is clever, presumably because it is different from the past. I would say that was particularly true of the professional movers and shakers. No doubt they want their offspring to self-promote in a competitive society. They might view earlier normal disciplinary arrangements not so much as wrong as non-trendy but to my mind that in itself is an adolescent stance. It is also cringe making in that it maintains a sort of 1960s position as if it is still cutting edge. One of the biggest barriers is that large numbers of the current middle aged in powerful positions never grew up.
Additionally, in culture, vast sums of money are made by the young middle aged in promoting culture that isn't so much aggressive as violent and spiteful. At least channelled aggression has rules. Again, they play to a very young mindset and lock young people in. The latter might be experiencing adult life earlier in a variety of ways but there is often no adult mentality that goes with it. Much of what we tend to call adult behaviour is juvenile behaviour when it is in the absence of adult emotions. And in workplaces, promotion is given to the young often ahead of time. Older folk are advised that they have to work to an older age. But when the Prime Ministers are elected in their early 40s and ex professionals are on shop tills at 60 then clearly wider society has lost the plot. Being twisted and turned on its head, it makes itself ripe for aberrant twists on the margins. Much of it needs to be reversed - and fast.
It's not "brainwashing" though is it.
I'm sure those who know him will claim he's a lovely lad.
Would it be right to say all the figures , percentages quoted are reflecting those that ADMITTED they would do those things , think that way . The reality is, it is much worse than that . How dispicable that any muslim Would not inform authorities of a terrorist attack . The so called " moderate Muslims " are not so moderate it seems .
THey're generally referred to as Kenyan or Ugandan Asians
Probably because she relates to her Asian roots and customs.
So the fact that some one has had am extremely long holiday in Turkey would not ring any alarm bells?
I suppose they would just walk through anyway as the computerised border system was scrapped and this week we found out it has cost taxpayers hundreds of millions.
Hard to follow? Sure is.
You are saying that not all British citizens are 'British' (your inverted commas).
Who in your world defines what being 'British' is then?
You? Me?
Who?
I don't understand why they think they've been badly treated here, we seem to bend over backwards for every ethnic minority !
That is perplexing, isn't it. Talk about biting the hand that feeds them.
Apart from being treated as a homogeneous group who are all deemed to be terrorists? Perhaps some then think 'may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb' look into it more and then join up.
Indeed and now the rest of us will have to suffer with further police state laws and restrictions being put in place, all for our "protection" I have no idea what but I'm sure they will come.
I've never seen or heard anyone on the media say that they think all Muslims are terrorists, in fact most people seem to think exactly the opposite.