Piracy Laws. Are you ready? April 14th (Merged)

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 879
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    I just have to point out that piracy is not stealing! Please stop confusing the two!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    technoguy wrote: »
    Well its a nonsensical question isn't as if they are found innocent then they won't be prosecuted. But thats up to the courts to decide, not me.

    Sounds simple when you say it like that, just find a new business model.

    No business model can work long term when someone else is just giving the same thing away full uncut and without adverts or anything else you may have used to make money with and they are just giving it away for free. The ONLY way to seriously save the future world economy is to have strong laws to clamp down on these people who are taking things for free.

    Really?.

    You can go to pretty much any torrent site and download a very good quality copy of Avatar. Didn't stop it becoming the highest grossing film in history.

    You can go to any torrent site and download Lady Gaga's latest album in high quality MP3 or FLAC formats, didn't stop it going to number one and going multi platinum, nor did it stop it selling in huge number via iTunes.

    You can grow your own carrots or potatoes, doesn't stop you buying them.
    :D
  • darkjedimasterdarkjedimaster Posts: 18,620
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    Really?.

    You can go to pretty much any torrent site and download a very good quality copy of Avatar. Didn't stop it becoming the highest grossing film in history.

    You can go to any torrent site and download Lady Gaga's latest album in high quality MP3 or FLAC formats, didn't stop it going to number one and going multi platinum, nor did it stop it selling in huge number via iTunes.

    You can grow your own carrots or potatoes, doesn't stop you buying them.
    :D

    You can brew your own beer / cider / wine & even grow your own tobacco. But we still buy them ;)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    Lily_2008 wrote: »
    I'm so confused about these new laws, I don't know much about this subject! What exactly will we not be able to do?? Does streaming films off the internet count as downloading them? Will I get a letter in the post if I use Limewire? Or is it only using torrent sites??? :confused:

    Streaming from legal sources, such as Spotify wont see you in court. Actually, neither will using a ripper program to save the tracks from Spotify or YouTube because they are copied to your computer as they are streamed. All the ripper does is save them instead of them being deleted once played. YouTube or Spotify can't tell whether you have used a ripper or not.

    Downloading from a torrent site or via Limewire COULD see you receiving a blackmail letter, but you are no more likely to receive such a letter than if you had never downloaded anything it seems. Letters have been sent to dead people, babies and people who have never owned a computer :D

    The DEB though changes things fundamentally and makes it much, much more difficult for you to defend yourself because it assumes guilt.
  • tghe-retfordtghe-retford Posts: 26,449
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    Lily_2008 wrote: »
    I'm so confused about these new laws, I don't know much about this subject! What exactly will we not be able to do?? Does streaming films off the internet count as downloading them? Will I get a letter in the post if I use Limewire? Or is it only using torrent sites??? :confused:
    Why I oppose it in brief:
    • I believe it is a bill which is being dicated by old style media industry trade bodies and companies - they'll effectively dictate what you can and can't do online - they want the bill to be pushed through without debate because it'll help them profit. Which in my view and the view of many MPs tonight in the second reading, the fact that this bill is being pushed through without the thorough and significant debate it must have is undemocratic.
    • Legitimate websites could be blocked such as YouTube, Facebook, Wikipedia et al if they have individual users upload or copy/paste copyrighted work.
    • Individuals will face being blocked from the Internet - automatic disconnection without trial, you'd also have to pay for any appeal, no legal aid will be offered, so if you're on low pay, you are stuffed.
    • The bill will affect public Wi-Fi hotspots in cafes, restaurants and libraries amongst other places, who'll have to decide whether to risk being blocked and lose business or stop providing Wi-Fi.
    It also has bad consequences for the rights of photographers as well, who will have to register their work and pay to have it registered with a central organisation or face losing ownership on their work.

    As for your questions - yes, this could affect streaming of copyrighted content that the owners or pay TV providers either want you to pay for or don't want people to see in the UK - after all, YouTube could be blocked and that's a streaming website. If you download copyrighted files via Limewire or other P2P software, you could get a letter. Doesn't matter how the copyrighted files are delivered, you'll get a letter.

    38 Degrees and the Open Rights Group are the main advocates against the bill. There are other points to this bill they oppose that I haven't covered but are equally as valid. If you oppose the bill, read those websites and I would seriously suggest your contact your MP ASAP. It'll be a sad day for freedom and democracy when this bill becomes law.
  • RoweyRowey Posts: 2,154
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    Really?.

    You can go to pretty much any torrent site and download a very good quality copy of Avatar. Didn't stop it becoming the highest grossing film in history.
    This is incorrect, you can not get Avatar 3D on torrent sites as it wouldn't work anyway without the correct display and glasses tech. Only crappy copies of the 2d version tend to be online which is useless. So every one who wanted to see it had to pay for a ticket. This is why cinema is embracing 3D as its hard to pirate so more people go the cinema instead. Proving yet again that piracy harms. With being able to cut down on piracy Avatar became very successful.
    You can go to any torrent site and download Lady Gaga's latest album in high quality MP3 or FLAC formats, didn't stop it going to number one and going multi platinum, nor did it stop it selling in huge number via iTunes.
    A tiny fraction of people actually pay for song compared to those who get them for free. Platinum gets downgrade every few years to be a lower amount as single sales continue to decline with the onslaught of piracy.
  • IggymanIggyman Posts: 8,021
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    I must have missed a memo .......... what's this about a £70 router ?!?
  • paulbrockpaulbrock Posts: 16,632
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    Really?.

    You can go to pretty much any torrent site and download a very good quality copy of Avatar. Didn't stop it becoming the highest grossing film in history.

    You can go to any torrent site and download Lady Gaga's latest album in high quality MP3 or FLAC formats, didn't stop it going to number one and going multi platinum, nor did it stop it selling in huge number via iTunes.

    So because other people are paying for it do you believe that filesharers are entitled to get it for free?
  • James LamontJames Lamont Posts: 3,370
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    What about uploading sites like rapidshare.com, megaupload.com? The content (ie: the links can be removed and are by content providers) but they cant track the individual users ISPs unless they force the upload sites to give them the data and inspect all the files?
  • technoguytechnoguy Posts: 2,271
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    You can grow your own carrots or potatoes, doesn't stop you buying them.
    :D
    You can brew your own beer / cider / wine & even grow your own tobacco. But we still buy them ;)
    Because all that takes, time, effort, money, equipment, land etc etc and probably then wouldn't turn out as good as the ones you can buy.

    If you could just click a mouse and get all that for free and it would be identical to the ones in the shops then you might have a point. People wouldn't bother to buy them anymore.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    Rowey wrote: »
    This is incorrect, you can not get Avatar 3D on torrent sites as it wouldn't work anyway without the correct display and glasses tech. Only crappy copies of the 2d version tend to be online which is useless. So every one who wanted to see it had to pay for a ticket. This is why cinema is embracing 3D as its hard to pirate so more people go the cinema instead. Proving yet again that piracy harms. With being able to cut down on piracy Avatar became very successful.

    A tiny fraction of people actually pay for song compared to those who get them for free. Platinum gets downgrade every few years to be a lower amount as single sales continue to decline with the onslaught of piracy.

    I could easily link to a 3D copy of Avatar, but it would be against DS rules. It does however, require 3D glasses and doesn't quite have the same impact that the cinema version does, or probably the same impact it would have on a new 3D telly with those new fancy glasses and a legitimate copy.

    But 3D copies of Avatar DO exist,
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,111
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    woven wrote: »
    Illegal downloading will never be stopped. The pirates will always be one step ahead because the industry tried to take a head-in-the-sand approach in the beginning, instead of embracing the culture and finding a way to make it accessible early on. They can do what they like but those who are determined enough will always get around any deterrents put in place.

    It will probably be innocent people who are affected by any anti-piracy laws the most because the people in charge of them couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery.

    And so say all of US.

    I find myself going to the cinema more often these days, it is not the same level as a few years ago, granted.
    But I have found a nice cinema in the centre of Manchester, and it is not too much of a hardship to endure.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    paulbrock wrote: »
    So because other people are paying for it do you believe that filesharers are entitled to get it for free?

    No, I was replying to someone that's all.
  • tghe-retfordtghe-retford Posts: 26,449
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    What about uploading sites like rapidshare.com, megaupload.com? The content (ie: the links can be removed and are by content providers) but they cant track the individual users ISPs unless they force the upload sites to give them the data and inspect all the files?
    They'll just block the website, the blame will lie not just on uploaders, but also on the websites hosting the content, whether they want to host it or delete copyright infringements on sight. It's one of the things about this bill I hate, people like myself who say would use P2P for perfectly legal reasons like downloading a free, open source Linux distribution and finding my legal right to do so blocked because this bill becoming law will now prevent me from doing so because of other people's actions.

    Like I say, this bill will do nothing to deter illegal downloading, but it will punish legal users of the Internet.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    What about uploading sites like rapidshare.com, megaupload.com? The content (ie: the links can be removed and are by content providers) but they cant track the individual users ISPs unless they force the upload sites to give them the data and inspect all the files?

    Not unless these sites are forced to hand over logs. However, many of these sites do not keep logs, nor do most newsgroup providers which is one of the reasons why it will never go away.

    However, what COULD happen is British ISP's being forced to block sites like Rapidshare because they can be used for illegal downloading, despite the fact most of these sites are pretty quick at taking down illegal material when they discover it or are made aware of it.
  • RoweyRowey Posts: 2,154
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    I could easily link to a 3D copy of Avatar, but it would be against DS rules. It does however, require 3D glasses and doesn't quite have the same impact that the cinema version does, or probably the same impact it would have on a new 3D telly with those new fancy glasses and a legitimate copy.

    But 3D copies of Avatar DO exist,
    Exactly it won't work as i've already said in my previous posts. Cinemas have had to invest in new technology before they can even have Real 3D.

    3D is being hailed as the saviour of cinemas, as with piracy getting so bad they were in serious trouble. But as 3D films don't copy correctly and you need the correct Real 3D technology to play them back. You have to go the cinema to experience them and as you've pointed out the huge success of Avatar 3D has shown that once you can cut down on piracy more people will go and pay for the real thing.
  • vanzandtfanvanzandtfan Posts: 8,897
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    Rowey wrote: »
    A tiny fraction of people actually pay for song compared to those who get them for free. Platinum gets downgrade every few years to be a lower amount as single sales continue to decline with the onslaught of piracy.

    Do try to keep up

    http://www.bpi.co.uk/press-area/news-amp3b-press-release/article/2009-is-record-year-for-uk-singles-sales.aspx

    What I love is this comment

    "“That singles have hit these heights while there are still more than a billion illegal downloads every year in the UK is testimony to the quality of releases this year and the vibrancy of the UK download market. Consumers are responding to the value and innovation offered by the legal services and these new figures show how the market could explode if Government acts to tackle illegal peer-to-peer filesharing.”"

    So sales decrease, and this is proof that we must tackle piracy
    Sales increase, and this is proof that we must tackle piracy

    It would be funny if it wasn't for people buying into this bull crap
  • James LamontJames Lamont Posts: 3,370
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    They'll just block the website, the blame will lie not just on uploaders, but also on the websites hosting the content, whether they want to host it or delete copyright infringements on sight. It's one of the things about this bill I hate, people like myself who say would use P2P for perfectly legal reasons like downloading a free, open source Linux distribution and finding my legal right to do so blocked because this bill becoming law will now prevent me from doing so because of other people's actions.

    Like I say, this bill will do nothing to deter illegal downloading, but it will punish legal users of the Internet.

    I suppose this is the same tact that they did with the torrent sites, ie: removing them or getting the ISP to block them. They must have thought it would decrease the illegal downloading but it hasn't. I will freely admit I was a member of Elitetorrents.org before the FBI raided it, shut it down and arrested some of the owners and uploaders, but no matter what they do when they close one site another three sites will spring up. If the internet is going to be uncensored its the natural thing and your right piracy will find a way.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    technoguy wrote: »
    Because all that takes, time, effort, money, equipment, land etc etc and probably then wouldn't turn out as good as the ones you can buy.

    If you could just click a mouse and get all that for free and it would be identical to the ones in the shops then you might have a point. People wouldn't bother to buy them anymore.

    Identical has nothing to do with it though. If you download an MP3 copy of an artists CD it is not identical, to many audio purists it sounds inferior.

    If you download a movie file it is not identical, quality has been compromised somewhat. Maybe not enough for most to notice but those who demand the highest quality would say they notice.

    However, a carrot or potato you grow yourself may not quite look as good as a supermarket one, but it still tastes the same and in some cases might even taste better.
  • paulbrockpaulbrock Posts: 16,632
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    No, I was replying to someone that's all.

    Fair enough :)
  • darkjedimasterdarkjedimaster Posts: 18,620
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    When I was a child, I used to copy off the radio or record record to tape. Piracy has been going on for long before the internet ever existed. Even with this new bill, it won't stop people from obtaining their music & movies.
  • James LamontJames Lamont Posts: 3,370
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    Not unless these sites are forced to hand over logs. However, many of these sites do not keep logs, nor do most newsgroup providers which is one of the reasons why it will never go away.

    However, what COULD happen is British ISP's being forced to block sites like Rapidshare because they can be used for illegal downloading, despite the fact most of these sites are pretty quick at taking down illegal material when they discover it or are made aware of it.

    Surely they cannot do this though because Megaupload and Rapidshare have many legal files? There is no way these hosting sites exist just for people to upload illegal copyrighted content, even if they can and are used in this way. Must be an legal issue here. And also there is the issue that copyrighted files could be named something different like for exampe jamespic1.rar and actually it could be a movie, how on earth are the ISPS going to have the time to download the files and inspect them? It doesn't make sense or stack up as a workable answer.

    If they block the sites, the content will move to new uploading sites which ARENT blocked. Or proxy servers would be used.
  • vanzandtfanvanzandtfan Posts: 8,897
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    Rowey wrote: »
    Exactly it won't work as i've already said in my previous posts. Cinemas have had to invest in new technology before they can even have Real 3D.

    3D is being hailed as the saviour of cinemas, as with piracy getting so bad they were in serious trouble. But as 3D films don't copy correctly and you need the correct Real 3D technology to play them back. You have to go the cinema to experience them and as you've pointed out the huge success of Avatar 3D has shown that once you can cut down on piracy more people will go and pay for the real thing.

    What evidence do you have that cinemas were in "serious trouble". Looking at the stats, they don't seem to be doing too bad

    http://www.cinemauk.org.uk/ukcinemasector/admissions/annualukboxofficeandaverageannualspending2000-2008/

    3D is just another new technology, like the talkies and colour. The success of these technologies was not proof that cinema sales were effected by piracy, no more than the success of avatar is.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 36,630
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    Rowey wrote: »
    Exactly it won't work as i've already said in my previous posts. Cinemas have had to invest in new technology before they can even have Real 3D.

    3D is being hailed as the saviour of cinemas, as with piracy getting so bad they were in serious trouble. But as 3D films don't copy correctly and you need the correct Real 3D technology to play them back. You have to go the cinema to experience them and as you've pointed out the huge success of Avatar 3D has shown that once you can cut down on piracy more people will go and pay for the real thing.

    It DOES work, in the same way current 3D movies released on DVD work. You just need to make your own 3D glasses as obviously, they can't be downloaded.

    3D versions of recent films released to DVD at present don't look as good as they did in the movies but it is good enough for many people.

    The point is a 3D copy is available for download.

    However, I do agree with part of your second paragraph, the movie industry can defeat piracy by continuing to innovate and producing better and bigger blockbusters. In fact they have always done so, piracy may be huge but yet again last year was a record year both for the movie industry and for cinema attendances. Cinemas aren't in trouble though, attendances have been on the up for the last few years according to their OWN figures.
  • technoguytechnoguy Posts: 2,271
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    "“That singles have hit these heights while there are still more than a billion illegal downloads every year in the UK
    A billion stolen singles doesn't really surprise me. What does surprise me is that even though you can buy legal mp3's for as little as 29p. Only a tiny amout of that billion actually will. I can remember when they were £4.00 odd.

    It just shows even when you're almost giving singles away for a few pence. People will still go for the free version just to save a few pennies.

    Cheapskates. :D
    It DOES work, in the same way current 3D movies released on DVD work. You just need to make your own 3D glasses as obviously, they can't be downloaded.
    That kind of 3D is like comparing a ZX Spectrum to an Playstation 3. The difference is Vast and is not comparable at all.
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