OK, if you insist on being that petty, I'll put it more generically - you have played Swansea, Burnley, Sunderland and QPR. None of which will be troubling the top seven and in one quarter or another were predicted to struggle this season.
You have yet to play a probable top seven finisher this season, so the points gap at the moment is a bit misleading and isn't an accurate representation of the relative merits of Arsenal, Liverpool and United. It may transpire that you rip through teams when your more challenging fixtures come along but no-one can judge that just yet.
It's a pity I can't make a perfectly viable point on here without you finding a petty reason to counter it that doesn't actually add anything to the argument, often simply a vehicle to divert, digress or subvert instead.
My point was valid. A poster saying it's an open top four because United are a point behind Arsenal and Liverpool is way too simplistic given the fixtures played thus far.
At the end of November, things will be much clearer.
United being a point behind Arsenal and Liverpool is not the reason for it being (potentially) an 'open top 4'.
None of the three have been convincing thus far. If pushed, I'd say that Arsenal have looked the best of them.
Of course, I wouldn't expect you to be even remotely complimentary about United, despite your desperate claims of non-bias. The fact remains that we looked decidedly decent today.
Doesn't really mean anything at this stage. Liverpool are lower in the table this season and yet we're 2 points better off when compared to the same fixtures last season.
January should give a better indication.
But, if I was asked to say now I'd say Chelsea will win it. City should come 2nd and Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal to fight for the other 2 positions in the top 4 with Utd being the dark horses to take 2nd off City if everything clicks.
Chelsea look good but lets not forget who they have faced so far.
Well, aside from a trip to one of last season's top 5 (Everton) we've played Swansea at home, and Burnley away. Both easy fixtures as you allude to which I guess is why United had no problems sweeping them aside. Oh wait….
Well, aside from a trip to one of last season's top 5 (Everton) we've played Swansea at home, and Burnley away. Both easy fixtures as you allude to which I guess is why United had no problems sweeping them aside. Oh wait….
Well your next few fixtures will be interesting, man city to start with. That will be a real test for your "future champions";-)
I have no idea where United will finish. No-one does.
As you say, the season is 4 games old. No conclusions can be drawn.
However, sniping at United has become a favourite pastime, for some. That's fine, but people shouldn't expect it to go unchallenged. And using a defeat against 'top six' Aston Villa as a reason why your club is doing better than ours is patent nonsense.
United, Arsenal and Liverpool are fighting for two places, in my opinion. That could be bunkum, and United could finish 10th, for all I know. Let's just wait and see, eh?
ANY contradiction of any given United fan seems to be categorised as "sniping at United" and being labelled like that frankly annoys me. I have posted here for several years and have always given my opinion on all clubs when they're in the news - I'm a football fan who likes to discuss football.
I went into great lengths a couple of years ago to suggest United were faltering and this was met with a wall of arrogance or denial in the main. It was simply my opinion, as it happened, just as I had negative things to say about the way Liverpool were going at the time.
A lot of what I said came to pass, yet the majority of United fans chose to largely blame Moyes instead of conceding some critics may have had a point about the ageing squad, lack of investment and so on.
Football fans are naturally loyal and often biased. Any negative thing said about the club is often contested with an understandable slant. ALL clubs fans are guilty of this - it's a given.
To be accused of sniping or having an agenda when making a point is unfair and hence why I defend myself. I responded to a comment made by a poster that I didn't agree with and backed it up with clear and considered evidence. Find an inflammatory post from me after a United defeat if you can - I may smile at a distance (as is natural being a rival fan) but I have NEVER waded into the United thread and trolled or tried to wind people up.
I simply disagreed with what someone said. That should never be a crime and is identical to your ethos of not leaving things unchallenged. The supporters' threads should not be a sanctuary in which people can hold an opinion and not expect it to be countered.
By all means disagree with me but don't accuse me of things that are simply untrue just because it acts as a convenient defence mechanism. I am ferociously protective of my integrity on here and I won't bow down to any attempts to undermine that - and, don't worry, I'll never take the Report route as I'm quite capable of fighting my corner without resorting to that.
The whole Welbeck episode illustrates why I feel slighted...
I've been accused of being obsessed just because I refuse to let my opinion on the Welbeck transfer be undermined by a bizarre out of context assertion that I once thought he was frustrating. He WAS frustrating - but only because he was being evidently deployed in a less than optimal fashion (as the statistics outline very clearly).
That historic post was taken out of context and used as an attempt to suggest I was being malevolent. Even if I had changed my opinion (which I hadn't), it would have had no bearing on my statement that £16m was a bargain for a 23-year-old England international. That opinion was supported by facts, such as that even though he was played wider and deeper on occasions, his minutes-per-goals ration (rightly excluding penalties) was only bettered by Suarez, Sturridge and Aguero in the 2013/2014 season. Those statistics were bizarrely dismissed.
How is that an adult debate? I challenged one poster in a thread who countered my opinion that £16m was a bargain for Arsenal by stating he was "rubbish". With zero evidence to support that outrageous statement. The fact I held this opinion after his transfer was even cited as being "an agenda". How could I have discussed it BEFORE he was sold? The whole debate emerged from the disparaging stance some United fans were taking towards Welbeck and his transfer. The sarcasm continues today because United won without him. Personally, I'd said numerous times that United had every right to sell as even before Falcao arrived he was never going to play in the position he is best suited to. And to cap it all, the "it's only because he scored twice for England" line came out (my defence of Welbeck if used as a striker pre-dated that game).
As I've said before, some fans are so wound up by the avalanche of football "banter" and media feeding frenzy when things are going awry at their clubs that they take ANY criticism or counter-opinion to be an attack. It isn't. It means someone doesn't share the same opinion as you do. If they back up that opinion with clear and balanced reasoning then they should be engaged with similarly.
It's not too much to ask.
Apologies for the verbosity (something else people hit me with) - sometimes it's necessary to demonstrate that I'm actually trying to make a reasonable point rather than just throwing hand grenades.
Let's be honest here, both Liverpool and Manchester United have fans in this forum that get annoying uptight about the slightest point against their club, however tenuous. And rather than discuss / debate the point fling accusations back.
To me, these are the two most notable, but probably mainly because of the number of posters from these clubs and discussions involving these clubs,
Chelsea, Arsenal et all have similar and also all the clubs have many ( probably the majority in each case ), with whom you can have an adult discussion.
Anyway, I long got fed up dealing with so much "you just don't like / hate Liverpool / Manchester United / whoever" nonsense, and feeling I had to justify my posting history, so have found much better ways to spend my time. If I post at all in the football forum, it is very rarely to do with a subject related to particular clubs.
Let's be honest here, both Liverpool and Manchester United have fans in this forum that get annoying uptight about the slightest point against their club, however tenuous. And rather than discuss / debate the point fling accusations back.
To me, these are the two most notable, but probably mainly because of the number of posters from these clubs and discussions involving these clubs,
Chelsea, Arsenal et all have similar and also all the clubs have many ( probably the majority in each case ), with whom you can have an adult discussion.
Anyway, I long got fed up dealing with so much "you just don't like / hate Liverpool / Manchester United / whoever" nonsense, and feeling I had to justify my posting history, so have found much better ways to spend my time. If I post at all in the football forum, it is very rarely to do with a subject related to particular clubs.
Pity ( and I am sure I am far from alone ).
BIB - Absolutely. Some fans are ridiculously sensitive about even the slightest bit of criticism.
BIB - Absolutely. Some fans are ridiculously sensitive about even the slightest bit of criticism.
It depends on what the criticism is, and the motive behind it.
Have a look at both the United and Liverpool threads. You'll see plenty of criticism of our own clubs/players/managers/fans/etc.
Now look at the most recent post in the United thread. 'United fans don't all come from Manchester' shock. Like it's exclusive to us, to have fans from elsewhere.
United and Liverpool get the most stick, because they're the two biggest, most well-supported clubs. If you want to genuinely debate a topic, that's fine. Too many are simply on the wind-up, though.
It depends on what the criticism is, and the motive behind it.
Have a look at both the United and Liverpool threads. You'll see plenty of criticism of our own clubs/players/managers/fans/etc.
Now look at the most recent post in the United thread. 'United fans don't all come from Manchester' shock. Like it's exclusive to us, to have fans from elsewhere.
United and Liverpool get the most stick, because they're the two biggest, most well-supported clubs. If you want to genuinely debate a topic, that's fine. Too many are simply on the wind-up, though.
There's plenty of people looking to wind up Man United fans. However saying Man U have had some easy fixtures so far and that Arsenal got Welbeck relatively cheap isn't a wind up. It's just an opinion that you may disagree with.
Look on the bright side... Our president is in jail, we have sold our most promising player and are looking to buy Ozil for £32m. Things could be worse for United/Liverpool fans
There's plenty of people looking to wind up Man United fans. However saying Man U have had some easy fixtures so far and that Arsenal got Welbeck relatively cheap isn't a wind up. It's just an opinion that you may disagree with.
I don't disagree with either opinion, to be honest.
I do have a problem with people not being honest, though. If people would like to see Welbeck smash in 30 goals for Arsenal, because it would make United look foolish for selling him, then that's fine.
Suddenly declaring that he's the bargain of the century, after repeatedly declaring him to be 'average', and an example of why Moyes was bound to struggle, is just revisionism.
I have no idea where United will finish. No-one does.
As you say, the season is 4 games old. No conclusions can be drawn.
However, sniping at United has become a favourite pastime, for some. That's fine, but people shouldn't expect it to go unchallenged. And using a defeat against 'top six' Aston Villa as a reason why your club is doing better than ours is patent nonsense.
United, Arsenal and Liverpool are fighting for two places, in my opinion. That could be bunkum, and United could finish 10th, for all I know. Let's just wait and see, eh?[/QUOTE]
Nice post Jim with which I agree - especially the BIB
I thought you wernt posting on these forums anymore, that's what you said at the end of last season.
Yes I cannot deny I said that as I was so frustrated by things at that time and altho not banned I have rarely posted in the last few months but I have read the forums a bit (but by no means every day). I have done a few posts recently testing the water so to speak as to whether things will be any different and it has been OK so I will probably continue to do so - but no way will I return to the days when I was spending a large part of my day discussing (arguing) on here and at the end of the day ending up merely frustrated with neither mine or the people I was talking to changing their views one iota. Often too such discussions/arguments would be accompanied by abuse and belittling of opposing views which made it not an enjoyable way to spend my time. As Indiana has observed sometimes the discussion on the football forum is not the best and deep involvement in it as I seemed unwittingly to have did not make me feel good.
But yeah lets try to discuss and if we need to disagree to disagree maturely and maybe I will post a bit more. Or do you want me to go away forever? Lol. Most on here are fine - and see I have praised Jim above and he is a MUFC fan so I am not too bad myself either - honest!!
Look on the bright side... Our president is in jail, we have sold our most promising player and are looking to buy Ozil for £32m. Things could be worse for United/Liverpool fans
Sorry I must have missed this, which team is it that you support?
Comments
1 (1) Chelsea 4 4 0 0 15 6 9 12
2 (2) Aston Villa 4 3 1 0 4 1 3 10
3 (3) Swansea City 4 3 0 1 8 5 3 9
4 (4) Southampton 4 2 1 1 8 3 5 7
5 (5) Manchester City 4 2 1 1 7 4 3 7
6 (6) Tottenham Hotspur 4 2 1 1 7 5 2 7
7 (7) Arsenal 4 1 3 0 7 6 1 6
8 (8) Liverpool 4 2 0 2 6 5 1 6
9 (16) Manchester United 4 1 2 1 6 3 3 5
10 (9) Everton 4 1 2 1 9 10 -1 5
11 (10) Leicester City 4 1 2 1 4 5 -1 5
12 (11) Hull City 3 1 1 1 3 3 0 4
13 (12) Stoke City 4 1 1 2 2 3 -1 4
14 (13) Sunderland 4 0 3 1 5 6 -1 3
15 (14) West Ham United 3 1 0 2 4 5 -1 3
16 (15) Queens Park Rangers 4 1 0 3 1 9 -8 3
17 (17) Crystal Palace 4 0 2 2 5 8 -3 2
18 (18) Burnley 4 0 2 2 1 4 -3 2
19 (19) West Bromwich Albion 4 0 2 2 2 7 -5 2
20 (20) Newcastle United 4 0 2 2 3 9 -6 2
POS LP CLUB P W D L GF GA GD PTS
You compare, you decide
United being a point behind Arsenal and Liverpool is not the reason for it being (potentially) an 'open top 4'.
None of the three have been convincing thus far. If pushed, I'd say that Arsenal have looked the best of them.
Of course, I wouldn't expect you to be even remotely complimentary about United, despite your desperate claims of non-bias. The fact remains that we looked decidedly decent today.
As I've already said, let's wait and see, eh?
Doesn't really mean anything at this stage. Liverpool are lower in the table this season and yet we're 2 points better off when compared to the same fixtures last season.
January should give a better indication.
But, if I was asked to say now I'd say Chelsea will win it. City should come 2nd and Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal to fight for the other 2 positions in the top 4 with Utd being the dark horses to take 2nd off City if everything clicks.
Well, aside from a trip to one of last season's top 5 (Everton) we've played Swansea at home, and Burnley away. Both easy fixtures as you allude to which I guess is why United had no problems sweeping them aside. Oh wait….
Season after season, we see a big change in the top 4-6 teams come Christmas.
Well your next few fixtures will be interesting, man city to start with. That will be a real test for your "future champions";-)
September means nothing, but then some people just don't seem to get it.
Its like beating your head against a brick wall trying to get through to some people.
Who's calling us "future champions"? None of our fans on here that I've seen. Long way to go….
ANY contradiction of any given United fan seems to be categorised as "sniping at United" and being labelled like that frankly annoys me. I have posted here for several years and have always given my opinion on all clubs when they're in the news - I'm a football fan who likes to discuss football.
I went into great lengths a couple of years ago to suggest United were faltering and this was met with a wall of arrogance or denial in the main. It was simply my opinion, as it happened, just as I had negative things to say about the way Liverpool were going at the time.
A lot of what I said came to pass, yet the majority of United fans chose to largely blame Moyes instead of conceding some critics may have had a point about the ageing squad, lack of investment and so on.
Football fans are naturally loyal and often biased. Any negative thing said about the club is often contested with an understandable slant. ALL clubs fans are guilty of this - it's a given.
To be accused of sniping or having an agenda when making a point is unfair and hence why I defend myself. I responded to a comment made by a poster that I didn't agree with and backed it up with clear and considered evidence. Find an inflammatory post from me after a United defeat if you can - I may smile at a distance (as is natural being a rival fan) but I have NEVER waded into the United thread and trolled or tried to wind people up.
I simply disagreed with what someone said. That should never be a crime and is identical to your ethos of not leaving things unchallenged. The supporters' threads should not be a sanctuary in which people can hold an opinion and not expect it to be countered.
By all means disagree with me but don't accuse me of things that are simply untrue just because it acts as a convenient defence mechanism. I am ferociously protective of my integrity on here and I won't bow down to any attempts to undermine that - and, don't worry, I'll never take the Report route as I'm quite capable of fighting my corner without resorting to that.
The whole Welbeck episode illustrates why I feel slighted...
I've been accused of being obsessed just because I refuse to let my opinion on the Welbeck transfer be undermined by a bizarre out of context assertion that I once thought he was frustrating. He WAS frustrating - but only because he was being evidently deployed in a less than optimal fashion (as the statistics outline very clearly).
That historic post was taken out of context and used as an attempt to suggest I was being malevolent. Even if I had changed my opinion (which I hadn't), it would have had no bearing on my statement that £16m was a bargain for a 23-year-old England international. That opinion was supported by facts, such as that even though he was played wider and deeper on occasions, his minutes-per-goals ration (rightly excluding penalties) was only bettered by Suarez, Sturridge and Aguero in the 2013/2014 season. Those statistics were bizarrely dismissed.
How is that an adult debate? I challenged one poster in a thread who countered my opinion that £16m was a bargain for Arsenal by stating he was "rubbish". With zero evidence to support that outrageous statement. The fact I held this opinion after his transfer was even cited as being "an agenda". How could I have discussed it BEFORE he was sold? The whole debate emerged from the disparaging stance some United fans were taking towards Welbeck and his transfer. The sarcasm continues today because United won without him. Personally, I'd said numerous times that United had every right to sell as even before Falcao arrived he was never going to play in the position he is best suited to. And to cap it all, the "it's only because he scored twice for England" line came out (my defence of Welbeck if used as a striker pre-dated that game).
As I've said before, some fans are so wound up by the avalanche of football "banter" and media feeding frenzy when things are going awry at their clubs that they take ANY criticism or counter-opinion to be an attack. It isn't. It means someone doesn't share the same opinion as you do. If they back up that opinion with clear and balanced reasoning then they should be engaged with similarly.
It's not too much to ask.
Apologies for the verbosity (something else people hit me with) - sometimes it's necessary to demonstrate that I'm actually trying to make a reasonable point rather than just throwing hand grenades.
To me, these are the two most notable, but probably mainly because of the number of posters from these clubs and discussions involving these clubs,
Chelsea, Arsenal et all have similar and also all the clubs have many ( probably the majority in each case ), with whom you can have an adult discussion.
Anyway, I long got fed up dealing with so much "you just don't like / hate Liverpool / Manchester United / whoever" nonsense, and feeling I had to justify my posting history, so have found much better ways to spend my time. If I post at all in the football forum, it is very rarely to do with a subject related to particular clubs.
Pity ( and I am sure I am far from alone ).
BIB - Absolutely. Some fans are ridiculously sensitive about even the slightest bit of criticism.
It depends on what the criticism is, and the motive behind it.
Have a look at both the United and Liverpool threads. You'll see plenty of criticism of our own clubs/players/managers/fans/etc.
Now look at the most recent post in the United thread. 'United fans don't all come from Manchester' shock. Like it's exclusive to us, to have fans from elsewhere.
United and Liverpool get the most stick, because they're the two biggest, most well-supported clubs. If you want to genuinely debate a topic, that's fine. Too many are simply on the wind-up, though.
There's plenty of people looking to wind up Man United fans. However saying Man U have had some easy fixtures so far and that Arsenal got Welbeck relatively cheap isn't a wind up. It's just an opinion that you may disagree with.
I don't disagree with either opinion, to be honest.
I do have a problem with people not being honest, though. If people would like to see Welbeck smash in 30 goals for Arsenal, because it would make United look foolish for selling him, then that's fine.
Suddenly declaring that he's the bargain of the century, after repeatedly declaring him to be 'average', and an example of why Moyes was bound to struggle, is just revisionism.
Sorry I must have missed this, which team is it that you support?
Bayern Munich
Ahh I thought it was from that description, but was unsure over what role your criminal held/holds at the club, thanks for clearing things up.
Why would you be interested in Ozil, don't you already have the worlds greatest collection of midfielders? Where exactly would he fit into your team?
*sigh* only Pep knows that. I think Bayern Munich fans will soon storm the prison to release Hoeness. Only he can stop this.
Although I believe he is getting released soon anyway
i cant see swansea or villa stayuing in hunt but chelsea,man city,arsenal,liverpool,united,everton and spurs will all be in the hunt.
Well, until November anyway.
I'd say after that the number of teams truly regarded as contenders will steadily whittle down. Hopefully not to too few too soon.
6-7 teams for 4 spots is very competitive though?