Outside of forums like this one no-one gives a flying stuff about Romana or the Rani.
Let. It. Go.
Agreed. No-one but dedicated fans would know who the Rani was, and a whole bunch them can't stand the character anyway.
Romana would make no sense storywise. And even less people would remember the Valeyard, or care who he was.
It had to be the Master - no-one else is iconic enough.
The change of gender option was offered by the Sisters of Karn to Eight, so it has clearly always been a possibility.
Personally, I can;t understand all the hysteria and gnashing-of-teeth on here. I've been watching Who since 1963 and am passionate about it, and yet I am fully comfortable with the thought that a member of this ALIEN SPECIES might decide to experience life as an opposite gender from their original one.
We saw the Doctor as a small boy - presumably that is why he has habitually chosen a male persona for his regenerations. Presumably the Rani and Romana were born female so the same reasoning applies - it becomes almost a habit to assume a 'body' of the same sex.
The Master though has possibly thought this is a new way to undermine the Doctor. I also seem to recall a female hand being seen when the Master was last destroyed, so we should have guessed really!
I don't mean to offend anyone who has been disturbed by this episode, but I think it is a bit silly having a go at Moffat for writing about an "afterlife". It's a fictional programme, it's not real. Personally, I wasn't disturbed or upset by the concept, despite losing a relative quite recently. I understand that just the idea of death may have caused a disturbance, but death is a common story in many shows, even kids' ones. I don't feel that Moffat should be had a go at for writing about such a topic, I don't think he set out to upset viewers, I think it was a great idea and shouldn't be taken so seriously.
You are absolutely correct, and I regret having posted my comments earlier, the latter of which I managed to delete but has been commented upon.
Unfortunately I think, maybe because I have had a minor operation recently, I have overreacted and am feeling over sensitive.
Well, er, that episode was one for the kids then ;-)
Pretty dark bit of comedy. And if somebody can't see why someone who had recently lost someone might be disturbed at the idea of dead people actually feeling the sensation of being created or having their organs harvested, that's disturbing. It's not like the poster said that death must never been shown or referenced on Doctor Who/TV in general; they just stated an opinion/voiced their feelings. Do they really need to be attacked out of some need to defend the programme?
I thought the concept was interesting and I don't think TV should shy away from disturbing ideas but it felt a bit out of place in a mainstream family show. No wonder they had Capaldi telling all the kiddies to get on the internet and play a nice game!
I don't buy that the Doctor would refuse to save Rose's father but would go to the afterlife to pick up her boyfriend of one or two months. I also don't buy that Clara is madly in love with him that she would risk the Doctor's life. Obviously she would be sad that he's died but they were dating; it's not like they were getting married and pledging their deepest love to each other.
I like the 'Clara is addicted to the Doctor/danger' vibe. Potential for subtext for those who wish it but not as simplistic as a 'romance'.
It did feel quite predictable though. When I saw the cybermen in the Radio Times and it talked about what happened to people when they die, it was obvious that they would be turned into Cybermen. Personally, I think the cybermen look cute rather than scary. And Missy=Master, people were calling that as soon as they saw her. It felt a bit like Moffat throwing in a lot of ideas because he wanted it to look clever.
I rolled my eyes at Missy kissing the Doctor. Yet again we have a female character whose power is limited to one-liners and sex.Couldn't just have a strong character who just happened to be female, could we? And really, I thought they weren't going to have the Doctor doing (well, having done to him) that sort of thing this series. Oh no, it's just with Clara because it would offend the audience's sensibilities.
On the plus side, at the start of the episode, there was actually some sort of chemistry between the Doctor and Clara and it was a nice interlude that wasn't marred by endless one-liners.
I really doubt anyone thinks anything other than confident, strong and clever about Mistress. She's completely in control, uber charismatic and confident. A strong female character certainly I'd conclude.
I think he did prove he was Danny Pink in the way he was so protective of her, and his not wanting her to come and find him with the Doctor. He was acting for her safety. Surely an imposter would be all "Yes it's me, come and get me." Will he choose to be "deleted", though? I think it sets up for the finale "proper" next week quite nicely. I was glued to the screen this week, as I have been for the bulk of this series.
The Master is one of the most recognisable villains in sci-fi history. Certainly I imagine majority of those watching would be aware of the character in at least a casual sense.
The Rani, on the other hand, would be a great shot at a pointless and answer on Pointless.
The character hadn't been on TV for 20 years at that point, the percentage of the audience that would have known the character would have been small. As much as I like the Delgado Master, it's a bit of an overstatement to say he was one of the most recognisable characters in sci-fi.
I'm not arguing for Missy to have been the Rani though.
sad that there was no surprise in this episode. i think many people have been discussing the fact that missy was short for mistress and therefore a female master since first episode she appeared. also i think most people decided we hoped that wasnt the truth.
so lets wait till next week for the real finale, but at this stage i am disappointed.
What bothers me about this switching gender shit is that the women of DW who possessed the ability to regenerate, always retained the body of a female from what we've seen.
Romana? Always a woman.
Melody Pond? A little girl who regenerated into another little girl, who then grew up to become Mels and, once again, when she was killed, regenerated into another female body: River Song.
No doubt the same would apply to The Rani. In fact, it already does if you count Big Finish.
So the women are always allowed to be women, right? No questions asked there, but the male Time Lords can't be the same anymore. I absolutely hate the idea of swapping genders, I really do. I wish the idea had never been brought up in relation to Doctor Who.
(Emphasis added)
How is this a remotely acceptable thing to say in the 21st century? How is saying this not utterly shameful? How dare you say that?
Well that was absolutely superb. Brilliant! can't wait until next week!!
Absolutely! We loved it here too..:D was pretty surreal in places..Missy.. I actually thought she would be a cyber controller..was a good reveal The Mistress hehe!
The change of gender option was offered by the Sisters of Karn to Eight, so it has clearly always been a possibility.
Personally, I can;t understand all the hysteria and gnashing-of-teeth on here. I've been watching Who since 1963 and am passionate about it, and yet I am fully comfortable with the thought that a member of this ALIEN SPECIES might decide to experience life as an opposite gender from their original one.
We saw the Doctor as a small boy - presumably that is why he has habitually chosen a male persona for his regenerations. Presumably the Rani and Romana were born female so the same reasoning applies - it becomes almost a habit to assume a 'body' of the same sex.
The Master though has possibly thought this is a new way to undermine the Doctor. I also seem to recall a female hand being seen when the Master was last destroyed, so we should have guessed really!
Absolutely, this.
What I have discovered, in this thread, is that sections of the fandom are almost bum-clenchingly conservative.
I had assumed, wrongly it seems, that the broad reaches of science-fiction would include Dr Who, and it's fans would be forward and open thinkers.
What I am finding is Crossroads fans arguing about the colour of Bennie's hat.
Doctor "loves and respects" Clara in a very deep way
Doctor actually acknowledges and lets on he knew/or has learnt more than he let on about the timelines they visited in "Listen"
Clara really isn't the Doctor, despite how much she thought she knew how he operates
Michelle Gomez is excellent
Reveal of the Cybermen was brilliant, as I mentioned previously I hope they are mean threatening cybermen
Not sure yet what I feel about the Master reveal, had hoped for a new villain but ... whatever. Michelle is going to give this character a great performance. The Master really knows how to rile the Doctor - picking on the human race again .... Not sure I get the boyfriend/girlfriend dynamic yet .... Matt Smith missed out on a great villain ! Wonder if she has a TARDIS. She has two hearts so she is in a Timelady body ....
Capaldi really is the Doctor - In Deep Breath, this fresh incarnation was weak - when he planted his thoughts into Vastra they bounced back straight into his head sending him to sleep. Now, he is strong, Clara tried to send him to sleep, when in fact the patch bounced back into her putting her into dream-state.
p.s. Who else thinks the "disappearing Doctor scene" at the beginning of the episode will be important somehow next week
p.s. What did 3W stand for - did I miss it?
Nice overview - I agree with all of it.
Didn't 3W mean the three words "Don't cremate me"?
Doctor "loves and respects" Clara in a very deep way
Doctor actually acknowledges and lets on he knew/or has learnt more than he let on about the timelines they visited in "Listen"
Clara really isn't the Doctor, despite how much she thought she knew how he operates
Michelle Gomez is excellent
Reveal of the Cybermen was brilliant, as I mentioned previously I hope they are mean threatening cybermen
Not sure yet what I feel about the Master reveal, had hoped for a new villain but ... whatever. Michelle is going to give this character a great performance. The Master really knows how to rile the Doctor - picking on the human race again .... Not sure I get the boyfriend/girlfriend dynamic yet .... Matt Smith missed out on a great villain ! Wonder if she has a TARDIS. She has two hearts so she is in a Timelady body ....
Capaldi really is the Doctor - In Deep Breath, this fresh incarnation was weak - when he planted his thoughts into Vastra they bounced back straight into his head sending him to sleep. Now, he is strong, Clara tried to send him to sleep, when in fact the patch bounced back into her putting her into dream-state.
p.s. Who else thinks the "disappearing Doctor scene" at the beginning of the episode will be important somehow next week
I was surprised Missy was the Master. Only because Moffat had a few lines along the smugness of "Come on keep up" (said to The Doctor, clearly meant for the audience), "Don't you know yet?" and "Isn't it obvious?" as if he's created the greatest twist in Sci-Fi history... only for the reveal to be what anyone with a brainstem could figure out.
I like the twist. It worked. Just dont get such a hard on over your own idea that you actually get your characters to gloat about it. When they kept showing the Cyberman eye in the pictures I kept thinking "what is that, i know that" and it actually hit me on the reveal "Oh cybermen" (I knew they were in the episode, that's all. Remained pretty much spoiler free this series). That's how it should be done. Little hints and reveal. No building up to a reveal whilst your characters w**k over your own idea.
Other than that I thought it was good. Certainly by far the best of the series IMO. Some of the usual Moffat-isms dragged it down. Like again his over use of references and callbacks, like Clara saying "Time can be rewritten" even though I dont think that was really a phrase ever relevant with her. Mainly Amy/11. Though I could be wrong. It still irked me though.
Or having this huge, complicated concept such as delving into the afterlife but then condensing it into one throwaway line "Always meant to look around for an afterlife". Oh. That's all we're getting on that are we? Normally stuff like that I let off but here it was relevant to the plot but STILL left hazy. I liked it when Moffat used to do it but it just descended into his get out card for everything. The "Time of the Doctor" is still just a series of reveals in the form of throwaway lines IMO.
Capaldi and Jenna were great. Pink funnily enough doesn't irk me as much as some here. I'd still give a 7. Never thought I'd say this as a HUGE lover of S5, 6 (apart from the finale) and 7A but Moffat really seems to be almost sleepwalking through this series.
Some other good things. The tone was great. Unlike some eps that have been all over the place this was great. Actually kept me guessing (aside from Missy) about some aspects. I have to give Moffat some credit he did put some good one liners in there. The scene in the volcano was really good. Until it was faked out.
I don't mean to offend anyone who has been disturbed by this episode, but I think it is a bit silly having a go at Moffat for writing about an "afterlife". It's a fictional programme, it's not real. Personally, I wasn't disturbed or upset by the concept, despite losing a relative quite recently. I understand that just the idea of death may have caused a disturbance, but death is a common story in many shows, even kids' ones. I don't feel that Moffat should be had a go at for writing about such a topic, I don't think he set out to upset viewers, I think it was a great idea and shouldn't be taken so seriously.
Hmm. Let's just hope that those complaining have never read Soylent Green ....
Comments
Clara is even more unlikeable than Amy Pond, who seems to just march around telling people to shut up or she'll slap them.
Danny Pink has to be one of the most grating characters ever, portrayed by a really bad actor.
Moffat seems to have run out of halfway-decent ideas years ago. Way over time for a new showrunner. This series has been the pits.
Agreed. No-one but dedicated fans would know who the Rani was, and a whole bunch them can't stand the character anyway.
Romana would make no sense storywise. And even less people would remember the Valeyard, or care who he was.
It had to be the Master - no-one else is iconic enough.
Personally, I can;t understand all the hysteria and gnashing-of-teeth on here. I've been watching Who since 1963 and am passionate about it, and yet I am fully comfortable with the thought that a member of this ALIEN SPECIES might decide to experience life as an opposite gender from their original one.
We saw the Doctor as a small boy - presumably that is why he has habitually chosen a male persona for his regenerations. Presumably the Rani and Romana were born female so the same reasoning applies - it becomes almost a habit to assume a 'body' of the same sex.
The Master though has possibly thought this is a new way to undermine the Doctor. I also seem to recall a female hand being seen when the Master was last destroyed, so we should have guessed really!
You are absolutely correct, and I regret having posted my comments earlier, the latter of which I managed to delete but has been commented upon.
Unfortunately I think, maybe because I have had a minor operation recently, I have overreacted and am feeling over sensitive.
I really doubt anyone thinks anything other than confident, strong and clever about Mistress. She's completely in control, uber charismatic and confident. A strong female character certainly I'd conclude.
The character hadn't been on TV for 20 years at that point, the percentage of the audience that would have known the character would have been small. As much as I like the Delgado Master, it's a bit of an overstatement to say he was one of the most recognisable characters in sci-fi.
I'm not arguing for Missy to have been the Rani though.
so lets wait till next week for the real finale, but at this stage i am disappointed.
How is this a remotely acceptable thing to say in the 21st century? How is saying this not utterly shameful? How dare you say that?
Absolutely!
She was a blue skinned alien in one of her try out bodies.
But hey the blue skined alien was probably still female so that's ok then.
Absolutely, this.
What I have discovered, in this thread, is that sections of the fandom are almost bum-clenchingly conservative.
I had assumed, wrongly it seems, that the broad reaches of science-fiction would include Dr Who, and it's fans would be forward and open thinkers.
What I am finding is Crossroads fans arguing about the colour of Bennie's hat.
Oh, do give it a rest ..and get back to reading The Guardian.
Your knee-jerk reaction completely missed his point.
Wow, hold on a damn minute, don't even go there. That's not at all what I meant.
A dull character in rubbish stories. Who cares?
Nice overview - I agree with all of it.
Didn't 3W mean the three words "Don't cremate me"?
That's weird because people were saying exactly the opposite after last week's episode
3 Words- don't cremate me.
Agree with your views by the way.
:kitty:
I like the twist. It worked. Just dont get such a hard on over your own idea that you actually get your characters to gloat about it. When they kept showing the Cyberman eye in the pictures I kept thinking "what is that, i know that" and it actually hit me on the reveal "Oh cybermen" (I knew they were in the episode, that's all. Remained pretty much spoiler free this series). That's how it should be done. Little hints and reveal. No building up to a reveal whilst your characters w**k over your own idea.
Other than that I thought it was good. Certainly by far the best of the series IMO. Some of the usual Moffat-isms dragged it down. Like again his over use of references and callbacks, like Clara saying "Time can be rewritten" even though I dont think that was really a phrase ever relevant with her. Mainly Amy/11. Though I could be wrong. It still irked me though.
Or having this huge, complicated concept such as delving into the afterlife but then condensing it into one throwaway line "Always meant to look around for an afterlife". Oh. That's all we're getting on that are we? Normally stuff like that I let off but here it was relevant to the plot but STILL left hazy. I liked it when Moffat used to do it but it just descended into his get out card for everything. The "Time of the Doctor" is still just a series of reveals in the form of throwaway lines IMO.
Capaldi and Jenna were great. Pink funnily enough doesn't irk me as much as some here. I'd still give a 7. Never thought I'd say this as a HUGE lover of S5, 6 (apart from the finale) and 7A but Moffat really seems to be almost sleepwalking through this series.
Some other good things. The tone was great. Unlike some eps that have been all over the place this was great. Actually kept me guessing (aside from Missy) about some aspects. I have to give Moffat some credit he did put some good one liners in there. The scene in the volcano was really good. Until it was faked out.
What's an Idris Elba type?????????????????????????????? >:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:
Hmm. Let's just hope that those complaining have never read Soylent Green ....
Advanced civilisations! bending genders! Messing with unmentionables!
How very dare they!