As I recall the objections to Denise were much the same as those to Natalie - too skilled, too smug. In neither case are these objective criteria, but being subjective they also cannot be dismissed as invalid grounds for disliking a contestant.
Difference between them is Natalie was upfront about her stage dance training prior to Strictly. Where Denise kept claiming all she did was sit on a chair. Oddly enough Denise was a genuine professional dancer, in as much as she was paid for the dancing she did as part of her role on stage in the West End. Whereas people bandy about the false claim that Natalie is a professional dancer, when in fact her injury at 19 prevented her pursuing dance as a professional career.
Plus I think Natalie is far less of a marmite personality than Denise.
I think its not clear that the public favours a journey contestant, who started from a low basis. Alesha and kara both won and never scored under 30 a feat which i think natalie is capapable off. And i think it is entirly possible to like journey contestants and the good ones. Mark and Natalie are the ones i'm looking forward to see every week, because Natalie is a brilliant dancer and Mark is for me somewone who has a clearly a ball on the dancefloor and is taking it seriously learning how to dance (and iveta is clearly insane, which i absolutley love especially in their latin dances)
I think its not clear that the public favours a journey contestant, who started from a low basis. Alesha and kara both won and never scored under 30 a feat which i think natalie is capapable off. And i think it is entirly possible to like journey contestants and the good ones. Mark and Natalie are the ones i'm looking forward to see every week, because Natalie is a brilliant dancer and Mark is for me somewone who has a clearly a ball on the dancefloor and is taking it seriously learning how to dance (and iveta is clearly insane, which i absolutley love especially in their latin dances)
BIB That's very true. I'm finding most of this year's cast pretty likeable for all kinds of reasons and am spreading my votes around. Loving Mark and Iveta - he's so darn lovable and she's bonkers. It's a winning combination .
no, i dont think so, and this is an example of exactly what i was pointing out. everyone wants to think their reason for dis/liking a contestant is rock solid, evidence based, written on a tablet of stone fact. its just an opinion, and its rather hilarious to need to go to such a rigidly narrow and inflexible interpretation of language in order to justify it.
the sitting on a chair claim was not all denise said about her training/experience, just all you chose to hold up in evidence against her, and in a comparison slot you could put natalie's refusal to even acknowledge that being an actress might help get into a role.
no, i dont think so, and this is an example of exactly what i was pointing out. everyone wants to think their reason for dis/liking a contestant is rock solid, evidence based, written on a tablet of stone fact. its just an opinion, and its rather hilarious to need to go to such a rigidly narrow and inflexible interpretation of language in order to justify it.
the sitting on a chair claim was not all denise said about her training/experience, just all you chose to hold up in evidence against her, and in a comparison slot you could put natalie's refusal to even acknowledge that being an actress might help get into a role.
false claim, lol. so sue me.
You can choose to see things however you like and have snipped my post accordingly. Hmm much like the editors who prepare stuff for viewing or reading. Perhaps you should sue them for false representation.
Denise's recent dance experience was the hook people hung their anti opinions on though, no matter what you may claim. People who had seen the show knew full well there was far more to her role than that she said.
I think its not clear that the public favours a journey contestant, who started from a low basis. Alesha and kara both won and never scored under 30 a feat which i think natalie is capapable off. And i think it is entirly possible to like journey contestants and the good ones. Mark and Natalie are the ones i'm looking forward to see every week, because Natalie is a brilliant dancer and Mark is for me somewone who has a clearly a ball on the dancefloor and is taking it seriously learning how to dance (and iveta is clearly insane, which i absolutley love especially in their latin dances)
But you could see Alesha & Kara improving & their confidence growing each week. Both of them started out vulnerable & blossomed.
They both had WOW dances & the public loved them & I certainly looked forward to their dances each week.
IMO Natalie is the same now as in week 1.
There is no progression & no wow moments.
I don't see any vulnerabilty or anything that draws me to like her & look forward to her dances.
... Alesha and kara both won and never scored under 30 a feat which i think natalie is capapable off. And i think it is entirly possible to like journey contestants and the good ones...
I think it is waste of time these days comparing scores with the first five or six series, but your second sentence sums up the later series for me. The producers are happy for celebs like Denise & Natalie to take part - like it or not thes is just another little tweak to the show.
You can choose to see things however you like and have snipped my post accordingly.
paranoid, or what.... :cool: i edited for brevity, on the grounds your original post was all of one above my reply, and available to anyone who wanted to follow the strand. nothing about my edit changed the meaning of your actual argument because i simply didn't quote any of it.
Denise's recent dance experience was the hook people hung their anti opinions on though...
i agree with that bit, i thought it was the supposed minimising of that experience that you were saying people objected to. which is why i raised the issue of natalie minimising the benefits of her acting skills.
so if we agree that people objected to DVOs 'recent dance experience' it seems difficult for anyone to credibly suggest that 'recent dance experience' is somehow an unreasonable hook for anyone who is not keen on natalie. especially as she's obviously way better than denise on that front.
paranoid, or what.... :cool: i edited for brevity, on the grounds your original post was all of one above my reply, and available to anyone who wanted to follow the strand. nothing about my edit changed the meaning of your actual argument because i simply didn't quote any of it.
i agree with that bit, i thought it was the supposed minimising of that experience that you were saying people objected to. which is why i raised the issue of natalie minimising the benefits of her acting skills.
so if we agree that people objected to DVOs 'recent dance experience' it seems difficult for anyone to credibly suggest that 'recent dance experience' is somehow an unreasonable hook for anyone who is not keen on natalie. especially as she's obviously way better than denise on that front.
I will leave your post in it's entirety. That way there is no confusion, unlike your last line. AFAIK Natalie has not danced in any non social capacity for 10 years prior to SCD so how can this be "recent dance experience"? This is where the anti Natalie bit falls down.
Now if they do not like her because she seems to have an inability to give in to the dance and just let go, I would understand this and sympathise wholeheartedly. Or if they do not like her because of her Corrie character I would understand. Totally illogical but understandable. The latter is more akin to the Denise dislike BTW.
I will leave your post in it's entirety. That way there is no confusion, unlike your last line. AFAIK Natalie has not danced in any non social capacity for 10 years prior to SCD so how can this be "recent dance experience"? This is where the anti Natalie bit falls down.
Now if they do not like her because she seems to have an inability to give in to the dance and just let go, I would understand this and sympathise wholeheartedly. Or if they do not like her because of her Corrie character I would understand. Totally illogical but understandable. The latter is more akin to the Denise dislike BTW.
well i will also leave your post in its entirety, just in case you forget what you said, or some innocent passer by gets confused. or GCHQ are watching.
'recent dance experience' doesn't have to be professional experience does it? or are we moving the goal posts again. i have no idea what sort of dancing she had done, but her level of skill and experience is clearly well above anyone else in the competition and that is what people find unappealing about her as a contestant in a show about learning to dance.
getting pedantic or overly concrete about exactly what constitutes 'recent / professional' and attempting to 'rule out' criticism based on narrow interpretations of language is really rather tiresome, which is exactly what i said in my earlier post ..
everyone wants to think their reason for dis/liking a contestant is rock solid, evidence based, written on a tablet of stone fact. its just an opinion, and its rather hilarious to need to go to such a rigidly narrow and inflexible interpretation of language in order to justify it.
Besides going on a journey, another requirement is that it must be on a level playing field.
It has never been a level playing field. What's the point of a "competition" which includes people in their 70s and people in their 20s? It was never meant to be a fair competition.
Regardless, the judges should mark the couples fairly - they shouldn't mark Natalie down and inflate the other scores. Then the audience should be allowed to decide who they want to vote for (without blatant manipulation).
I will leave your post in it's entirety. That way there is no confusion, unlike your last line. AFAIK Natalie has not danced in any non social capacity for 10 years prior to SCD so how can this be "recent dance experience"? This is where the anti Natalie bit falls down.
I really don't get this argument at all. I haven't driven a car for 8 years but no one surely would argue that I wouldn't be at a significant advantage in driving competently over a total beginner if I took to the wheel tomorrow? So whether the 'experience' is recent or not really doesn't come into it as far as I am concerned. For eg: Cherie Lunghi trained as a ballet dancer (to a high level) about 30 years before she did SCD and it still showed despite the long gap and her age. Watching Natalie dance - a very enjoyable experience for me, personally - it is stonkingly obvious she is building on a pre-existing high level of competence and not learning from scratch and therefore it is very hard to compare others in the programme to her. That strikes some people as unfair and/or uninteresting, which I can understand, and to others is immaterial to their pleasure in watching her. People's differing personal preferences about the level of competence they wish to watch, what 'journey' attracts them etc are totally understandable. What I don't get are the efforts of some of Natalie's supporters to deny the relevance of her previous training.
I really don't get this argument at all. I haven't driven a car for 8 years but no one surely would argue that I wouldn't be at a significant advantage in driving competently over a total beginner if I took to the wheel tomorrow? So whether the 'experience' is recent or not really doesn't come into it as far as I am concerned. For eg: Cherie Lunghi trained as a ballet dancer (to a high level) about 30 years before she did SCD and it still showed despite the long gap and her age. Watching Natalie dance - a very enjoyable experience for me, personally - it is stonkingly obvious she is building on a pre-existing high level of competence and not learning from scratch and therefore it is very hard to compare others in the programme to her. That strikes some people as unfair and/or uninteresting, which I can understand, and to others is immaterial to their pleasure in watching her. People's differing personal preferences about the level of competence they wish to watch, what 'journey' attracts them etc are totally understandable. What I don't get are the efforts of some of Natalie's supporters to deny the relevance of her previous training.
I agree with you, but what I can't understand is why Cherie Lunghi's prior training didn't result in such outrage from DS members. Nor can I understand why Natalie's prior training is being inflated to well nigh prima ballerina levels with added Gwen Verdon.
There is no journey, plain and simple. She started off brilliant, is still brilliant and will be brilliant in the final.
There is no way on earth (thanks to the judges) that she will not end up in the final, we might as well just accept it.
She may not win, but that's neither here nor there. She will most likely be offered a West End show out of it (which she fully deserves) and her career is all but made. Job done.
I agree with you, but what I can't understand is why Cherie Lunghi's prior training didn't result in such outrage from DS members. Nor can I understand why Natalie's prior training is being inflated to well nigh prima ballerina levels with added Gwen Verdon.
Outrage is putting it a bit high, but there were certainly the same sort of comments and threads about Cherie Lunghi as there are about Natalie. The issue was slightly complicated by the fact that Cherie was older and therefore not as likely a winner as Natalie simply by virtue of age, and her experience was more 'hidden' (as I recall, her cv didn't reflect her ballet experience and you had to dig for some pretty old articles about her talking about auditioning for the Bolshoi to get to the 'truth') which led to similar disputes as we see about Natalie as to what dancing she really had done and what was 'exaggeration' by her agent etc. It's really the same old story every time!
There is no journey, plain and simple. She started off brilliant, is still brilliant and will be brilliant in the final.
There is no way on earth (thanks to the judges) that she will not end up in the final, we might as well just accept it.
She may not win, but that's neither here nor there. She will most likely be offered a West End show out of it (which she fully deserves) and her career is all but made. Job done.
I agree. Except she might be well advised to pipe down about the back injury if she wants a West End show. The Martine McCutcheon effect is a promoter's nightmare!
I don't need a manufactured journey like the bullshit they spin around Ben Cohen. I like Ben Cohen as much as the next gay but if they spin around as if he is suddenly the most brilliant dancer i will get cross. His salsa and paso were very overmarked when the thing he has done was taking his shirt off and then mostly standing there while looking confused. I prefer good dancing like Natalies rumba to Ben cohens magical journey of bullshit.
I don't need a manufactured journey like the bullshit they spin around Ben Cohen. I like Ben Cohen as much as the next gay but if they spin around as if he is suddenly the most brilliant dancer i will get cross. His salsa and paso were very overmarked when the thing he has done was taking his shirt off and then mostly standing there while looking confused. I prefer good dancing like Natalies rumba to Ben cohens magical journey of bullshit.
I agree. Except she might be well advised to pipe down about the back injury if she wants a West End show. The Martine McCutcheon effect is a promoter's nightmare!
McCutcheon is a talentless, unprofessional chav, who can't even get a job advertising yoghurt these days.
Natalie is a terrific actress and a great dancer, I can't see her being anything but totally professional.
I agree with you, but what I can't understand is why Cherie Lunghi's prior training didn't result in such outrage from DS members. Nor can I understand why Natalie's prior training is being inflated to well nigh prima ballerina levels with added Gwen Verdon.
Cherie's 'prior training' was in ballet, was years ago and also clearly didn't help her in most of her latin routines. There was also, as I recall, an awful lot of 'prior experience' cat-calling that year (Tom being one target).
Natalie's training is, however, far more recent and was exclusively in dance. That's a big difference and it's very evident in her performances. It's no wonder she's so technically good, and there is a massive gap between her and all the other contestants ... hence the overmarking of Sophie, Patrick, Ashley and Ben that has gone on in the last three weeks.
At the risk of repeating myself, much as the producers may want Natalie to win, there's no point in having such a massive gap between her and all the other contestants that it becomes boring television. And, with viewing figures up at the moment and Strictly the only consistent success in BBC One's entertainment portfolio, that's something the producers can't risk. Hence the marking we've seen.
So there's no point defensive Natalie fans attacking Ben, or any other contestant. There's a reason for those scores - and it's Natalie's experience.
McCutcheon is a talentless, unprofessional chav, who can't even get a job advertising yoghurt these days.
Natalie is a terrific actress and a great dancer, I can't see her being anything but totally professional.
My point was to do with the perception in the industry that health problems tend to resurface at very inconvenient times (if you are arranging insurance or understudies!) I think Natalie is a very good dancer (the jury's out on her stage acting abilities) but she would do well to play down any tendency for back twinges caused by dancing if she wants a West End show
Cherie's 'prior training' was in ballet, was years ago and also clearly didn't help her in most of her latin routines. There was also, as I recall, an awful lot of 'prior experience' cat-calling that year (Tom being one target).
Natalie's training is, however, far more recent and was exclusively in dance. That's a big difference and it's very evident in her performances. It's no wonder she's so technically good, and there is a massive gap between her and all the other contestants ... hence the overmarking of Sophie, Patrick, Ashley and Ben that has gone on in the last three weeks.
At the risk of repeating myself, much as the producers may want Natalie to win, there's no point in having such a massive gap between her and all the other contestants that it becomes boring television. And, with viewing figures up at the moment and Strictly the only consistent success in BBC One's entertainment portfolio, that's something the producers can't risk. Hence the marking we've seen.
So there's no point defensive Natalie fans attacking Ben, or any other contestant. There's a reason for those scores - and it's Natalie's experience.
You seem overly defensive and dismissive yourself. Please don't lump people together, as it's incredibly rude - as was your intention.
Comments
Difference between them is Natalie was upfront about her stage dance training prior to Strictly. Where Denise kept claiming all she did was sit on a chair. Oddly enough Denise was a genuine professional dancer, in as much as she was paid for the dancing she did as part of her role on stage in the West End. Whereas people bandy about the false claim that Natalie is a professional dancer, when in fact her injury at 19 prevented her pursuing dance as a professional career.
Plus I think Natalie is far less of a marmite personality than Denise.
BIB That's very true. I'm finding most of this year's cast pretty likeable for all kinds of reasons and am spreading my votes around. Loving Mark and Iveta - he's so darn lovable and she's bonkers. It's a winning combination
no, i dont think so, and this is an example of exactly what i was pointing out. everyone wants to think their reason for dis/liking a contestant is rock solid, evidence based, written on a tablet of stone fact. its just an opinion, and its rather hilarious to need to go to such a rigidly narrow and inflexible interpretation of language in order to justify it.
the sitting on a chair claim was not all denise said about her training/experience, just all you chose to hold up in evidence against her, and in a comparison slot you could put natalie's refusal to even acknowledge that being an actress might help get into a role.
false claim, lol. so sue me.
You can choose to see things however you like and have snipped my post accordingly. Hmm much like the editors who prepare stuff for viewing or reading. Perhaps you should sue them for false representation.
Denise's recent dance experience was the hook people hung their anti opinions on though, no matter what you may claim. People who had seen the show knew full well there was far more to her role than that she said.
But you could see Alesha & Kara improving & their confidence growing each week. Both of them started out vulnerable & blossomed.
They both had WOW dances & the public loved them & I certainly looked forward to their dances each week.
IMO Natalie is the same now as in week 1.
There is no progression & no wow moments.
I don't see any vulnerabilty or anything that draws me to like her & look forward to her dances.
I think it is waste of time these days comparing scores with the first five or six series, but your second sentence sums up the later series for me. The producers are happy for celebs like Denise & Natalie to take part - like it or not thes is just another little tweak to the show.
Probably it's because unless the winning pro says they want to leave - like Camilla and Flavia - it the guarantee of another year on the show.
Heck, Brendan has stretched his for another 10
paranoid, or what.... :cool: i edited for brevity, on the grounds your original post was all of one above my reply, and available to anyone who wanted to follow the strand. nothing about my edit changed the meaning of your actual argument because i simply didn't quote any of it.
i agree with that bit, i thought it was the supposed minimising of that experience that you were saying people objected to. which is why i raised the issue of natalie minimising the benefits of her acting skills.
so if we agree that people objected to DVOs 'recent dance experience' it seems difficult for anyone to credibly suggest that 'recent dance experience' is somehow an unreasonable hook for anyone who is not keen on natalie. especially as she's obviously way better than denise on that front.
I will leave your post in it's entirety. That way there is no confusion, unlike your last line. AFAIK Natalie has not danced in any non social capacity for 10 years prior to SCD so how can this be "recent dance experience"? This is where the anti Natalie bit falls down.
Now if they do not like her because she seems to have an inability to give in to the dance and just let go, I would understand this and sympathise wholeheartedly. Or if they do not like her because of her Corrie character I would understand. Totally illogical but understandable. The latter is more akin to the Denise dislike BTW.
well i will also leave your post in its entirety, just in case you forget what you said, or some innocent passer by gets confused. or GCHQ are watching.
'recent dance experience' doesn't have to be professional experience does it? or are we moving the goal posts again. i have no idea what sort of dancing she had done, but her level of skill and experience is clearly well above anyone else in the competition and that is what people find unappealing about her as a contestant in a show about learning to dance.
getting pedantic or overly concrete about exactly what constitutes 'recent / professional' and attempting to 'rule out' criticism based on narrow interpretations of language is really rather tiresome, which is exactly what i said in my earlier post ..
everyone wants to think their reason for dis/liking a contestant is rock solid, evidence based, written on a tablet of stone fact. its just an opinion, and its rather hilarious to need to go to such a rigidly narrow and inflexible interpretation of language in order to justify it.
It has never been a level playing field. What's the point of a "competition" which includes people in their 70s and people in their 20s? It was never meant to be a fair competition.
Regardless, the judges should mark the couples fairly - they shouldn't mark Natalie down and inflate the other scores. Then the audience should be allowed to decide who they want to vote for (without blatant manipulation).
I really don't get this argument at all. I haven't driven a car for 8 years but no one surely would argue that I wouldn't be at a significant advantage in driving competently over a total beginner if I took to the wheel tomorrow? So whether the 'experience' is recent or not really doesn't come into it as far as I am concerned. For eg: Cherie Lunghi trained as a ballet dancer (to a high level) about 30 years before she did SCD and it still showed despite the long gap and her age. Watching Natalie dance - a very enjoyable experience for me, personally - it is stonkingly obvious she is building on a pre-existing high level of competence and not learning from scratch and therefore it is very hard to compare others in the programme to her. That strikes some people as unfair and/or uninteresting, which I can understand, and to others is immaterial to their pleasure in watching her. People's differing personal preferences about the level of competence they wish to watch, what 'journey' attracts them etc are totally understandable. What I don't get are the efforts of some of Natalie's supporters to deny the relevance of her previous training.
I agree with you, but what I can't understand is why Cherie Lunghi's prior training didn't result in such outrage from DS members. Nor can I understand why Natalie's prior training is being inflated to well nigh prima ballerina levels with added Gwen Verdon.
There is no way on earth (thanks to the judges) that she will not end up in the final, we might as well just accept it.
She may not win, but that's neither here nor there. She will most likely be offered a West End show out of it (which she fully deserves) and her career is all but made. Job done.
Outrage is putting it a bit high, but there were certainly the same sort of comments and threads about Cherie Lunghi as there are about Natalie. The issue was slightly complicated by the fact that Cherie was older and therefore not as likely a winner as Natalie simply by virtue of age, and her experience was more 'hidden' (as I recall, her cv didn't reflect her ballet experience and you had to dig for some pretty old articles about her talking about auditioning for the Bolshoi to get to the 'truth') which led to similar disputes as we see about Natalie as to what dancing she really had done and what was 'exaggeration' by her agent etc. It's really the same old story every time!
I agree. Except she might be well advised to pipe down about the back injury if she wants a West End show. The Martine McCutcheon effect is a promoter's nightmare!
Harsh but true.:D
Netherlands? Glaciated valley?
McCutcheon is a talentless, unprofessional chav, who can't even get a job advertising yoghurt these days.
Natalie is a terrific actress and a great dancer, I can't see her being anything but totally professional.
Cherie's 'prior training' was in ballet, was years ago and also clearly didn't help her in most of her latin routines. There was also, as I recall, an awful lot of 'prior experience' cat-calling that year (Tom being one target).
Natalie's training is, however, far more recent and was exclusively in dance. That's a big difference and it's very evident in her performances. It's no wonder she's so technically good, and there is a massive gap between her and all the other contestants ... hence the overmarking of Sophie, Patrick, Ashley and Ben that has gone on in the last three weeks.
At the risk of repeating myself, much as the producers may want Natalie to win, there's no point in having such a massive gap between her and all the other contestants that it becomes boring television. And, with viewing figures up at the moment and Strictly the only consistent success in BBC One's entertainment portfolio, that's something the producers can't risk. Hence the marking we've seen.
So there's no point defensive Natalie fans attacking Ben, or any other contestant. There's a reason for those scores - and it's Natalie's experience.
My point was to do with the perception in the industry that health problems tend to resurface at very inconvenient times (if you are arranging insurance or understudies!) I think Natalie is a very good dancer (the jury's out on her stage acting abilities) but she would do well to play down any tendency for back twinges caused by dancing if she wants a West End show
You seem overly defensive and dismissive yourself. Please don't lump people together, as it's incredibly rude - as was your intention.