Ambulance with sirens sounding at a red light

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  • Forza FerrariForza Ferrari Posts: 7,433
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    steveh31 wrote: »
    Because they have get to an emergency where someone is dying and for you to break a law which you can easily explain is just plain selfish.

    A non emergency services driver going through a red light won't necessarily help the situation they could cause an accident. However they may be able to move out the way without going through the red light so they leave the siren on.

    Also the siren is still alerting other road users at the junction it is not just for the car imediately in front.
  • tealadytealady Posts: 26,262
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    blue light aware video. Disappointingly they advice you not to even go into a bus lane in case you get a fine for that !
  • Prince MonaluluPrince Monalulu Posts: 35,900
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    gother wrote: »
    Based on what i've seen ofcourse there is no hard evidence but i'm very sure about my beliefs.

    I'll help you out on this as I've seen Rossers out racing each other, but that's all I can help with old thread post.

    As for the turning the Sirens to make you jump, we've seen this before on a documentary, might have been 'Ambulance 8 minutes to disaster'
    One of the Ambulance drivers 'watch this, watch this' as he drew alongside a punter on the pavement then turned on the sirens and made them jump.
    Found the post.
  • Old EndeavourOld Endeavour Posts: 9,852
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    In many road traffic laws (If you read up on the complete law) there is usually a section/line saying (paraphrased) "...unless to prevent danger to life".

    Now that normally means that if your car is in a dangerous position you can drive onto a pavement to prevent danger to life and be exempt from the driving on a pavement law.

    So I wonder if you had a clever lawyer it could be argued that your action was lawful as you were trying to prevent possible loss of life of the person in the ambulance?
  • MesostimMesostim Posts: 52,864
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    It's illegal to go through a red light. Laws are laws, you can't pick and choose which ones apply to you and which ones you can break

    O'rly... what if you punch someone in the workplace and you're already on a final warning?
  • SomnerSomner Posts: 9,412
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    gother wrote: »
    I've already explained further up they wail their sirens to get through traffic then once through they turn them off, anyway maybe i'm just getting the wrong end of the stick but i still think some of them abuse their sirens.

    That's normal response driving. The sirens and lights don't need to be on permanently. Last night I was responding to something but didn't feel appropriate using my speed limit exemption because of how wet the roads were. However on approaching traffic lights and traffic, I used my lights and sirens to get through. As soon as I was through the emergency equipment went off.

    I'm sure some people abuse their sirens from time to time (saying it never happens would be incredibly naive) but for the most part, it'll be you getting the wrong end of the stick.
    Mark. wrote: »
    The lawful exemption only applies when on an emergency call. I'm not sure moving out of the way for a different emergency vehicle on an emergency call qualifies.

    No it doesn't, not at all. The exemption applies where observing the prohibition would hinder the purpose for which the vehicle is being used. It's perfectly lawful for, at a specific moment in time, the police vehicle to be used for the purpose of allowing an ambulance through to save life and limb, and as such treat the red light as 'Give Way' rather than observing the prohibition.
  • Gordie1Gordie1 Posts: 6,993
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    I have went through red lights before to let emergency services through, a few occasions i haven't though.

    really it depends, if i am at light and an ambulance is behind me, i will crawl out to see if the other junctions are staying put to allow me to pass, if all is clear i go through, then pull in or slow in the left lane to allow them to pass, if the other traffic is just belting though i may move as much forward as i can pulling to the side to allow them a chance to pass me.
    If i got a ticket, id take it to the highest court in the land.
  • TrollHunterTrollHunter Posts: 12,496
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    Mesostim wrote: »
    O'rly... what if you punch someone in the workplace and you're already on a final warning?

    I imagine you'd probably get sacked.

    Has someone punched someone who's on a final warning then, or have you read a variety of news reports and come to the conclusion that a punch was thrown, rather than some pushing and shoving?
  • Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,335
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    In many road traffic laws (If you read up on the complete law) there is usually a section/line saying (paraphrased) "...unless to prevent danger to life".

    Now that normally means that if your car is in a dangerous position you can drive onto a pavement to prevent danger to life and be exempt from the driving on a pavement law.

    So I wonder if you had a clever lawyer it could be argued that your action was lawful as you were trying to prevent possible loss of life of the person in the ambulance?

    Not at all, I know someone who failed their test for moving on to the pavement (as did the large stream of cars in front and behind him) - instant fail!!.

    When he queried what he should do the examiner said (and I quote) "Let them die".
  • SomnerSomner Posts: 9,412
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    Not at all, I know someone who failed their test for moving on to the pavement (as did the large stream of cars in front and behind him) - instant fail!!.

    When he queried what he should do the examiner said (and I quote) "Let them die".

    Poor examiner then. It's perfectly lawful and safe to move on to the pavement as long as it is done correctly; i.e at a low speed with good observations, and only when necessary.
  • Jean-FrancoisJean-Francois Posts: 2,301
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    Gordie1 wrote: »
    If i got a ticket, id take it to the highest court in the land.


    If it ever happens Gordie, good luck with that, I mean that sincerely.
    When I was driving a black cab in London I stopped at the rear of an empty taxi rank in Drury Lane, WC2 and went into a pub to take a leak.
    On emerging I had a £60 parking ticket on my windshield, I disputed it, telling the truth about the call of nature, (the first two taxis on a rank in London must be available for hire, mine was the only one there.)
    Camden Council upheld the ticket, saying, "You as a licenced taxi driver should know better."
    I appealed to the Ombudsman, their office replied, "We can see no reason to over-ride Camden Council's decision."
    Nothing for it but to bite the bullet and pay it.
    I could have taken it all the way the Court of Human Rights in The Hague, but was it worth all that aggravation and form filling?
  • Old EndeavourOld Endeavour Posts: 9,852
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    Mesostim wrote: »
    O'rly... what if you punch someone in the workplace and you're already on a final warning?

    Why are you mixing up Laws and just what a company does?

    A warning is merely a company matter and not a law. And so far there is no actually evidence that anyone punched anyone else.
  • Old EndeavourOld Endeavour Posts: 9,852
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    Not at all, I know someone who failed their test for moving on to the pavement (as did the large stream of cars in front and behind him) - instant fail!!.

    When he queried what he should do the examiner said (and I quote) "Let them die".

    I would have put in a major written and formal complaint about him and for failing me.
  • Kaz159Kaz159 Posts: 11,824
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    MarellaK wrote: »
    I personally would not move out of the way if there were cameras and a potential fine and points on my licence. The few minutes or seconds spared wouldn't make much difference to the outcome as whoever is accompanying the patient, be it a doctor or paramedic, is qualified to deliver advanced life support - airway protection and CPR if needed.

    As I said earlier, we sometimes have to change over ambulances half way through a critical transfer. And, with the best will in the world, we will always get stuck at some point in central London traffic as there is sometimes just nowhere for cars to move to.

    I don't think a few minutes added to the journey is the ''difference between life and death''. Many of the blue lights you see are intra-hospital transfers of ICU patients who, although critical, are stable enough for a transfer.

    It could be if the ambulance is on its way to the emergency and not on the way back with the patient.
  • Prince MonaluluPrince Monalulu Posts: 35,900
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    Kaz159 wrote: »
    It could be if the ambulance is on its way to the emergency and not on the way back with the patient.

    I wouldn't think it would need spelling out.
    The difference between possible brain damage or other permanent physical damage too.

    Even if the Ambulance is clearly on it's way back to the Hospital, (you're in the area local to it one) I'm in no position to make that call 'patient's got all the medical help they need, you're in no hurry'
    I'm generally pretty observant and know if there's a 'jump' camera about, It's in my own interests to know (I won't spell it out), I'll get out of the way, go up the pavement, creep over the stop line, go into bus lanes.
    Haven't been 'done' for it yet, on balance if I really have to pay the fine, then I'll have to suck it up, sometimes doing the 'right' thing costs you.
  • WinterLilyWinterLily Posts: 6,304
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    MarellaK wrote: »
    They tell me they would be in serious trouble if they misuse their sirens so I really don't believe they would risk their jobs just to get somewhere a few minutes quicker. The ambulances are in constant communication with the control centre so they really don't get much opportunity to misuse the sirens.

    The reason LAS now rarely return medics and nurses to the home hospital following a transfer is because they literally go from one call to the next. The anaesthetist and myself may have to lug around a ventilator, monitor, a transfer suitcase, several bulky pumps etc once we have transferred our patient but, on the few occasions LAS have agreed to take us back to our own hospital (where we are very much needed), we end up going with the crew across London to answer further 999 calls - as soon as they have finished one job, they're on call for the next, they are incredibly busy.

    That's why the medics and nurses nowadays generally return to their home hospitals by taxi (with all the bulky equipment - it's not easy).

    Brings back memories Marella.

    As a young nurse in the late 70's I had to travel with a burns victim across Manchester.
    The police actually held back traffic at major junctions to let us through. I remember having to change an IV bag and the other ambulance man put his hands around my waist to steady me as I needed both hands free to change the bag. Paramedics would do all of this now I suppose.

    After dropping the patient off I then had the choice of going back in the ambulance or with the police. I went back with the police...just for the change!:)

    The NHS worked at a much slower pace back in those days.
  • Galaxy266Galaxy266 Posts: 7,049
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    I would never go through a red light to allow an emergency vehicle which was behind me to pass. People have done this in the past and been prosecuted for doing so; no allowances have been made whatsoever. I would wait until the lights changed to green and then move forward and give way to the emergency vehicle.

    Quite honestly, it's 2015, and I think it's high time that all emergency vehicles has a button inside their cab which, when pressed, will set all traffic lights in their path to green. This can be done, it isn't rocket science, and I really cannot understand why this hasn't been implemented right across the country.

    Edit............................ Here's a Metropolitan Police driver who doesn't know the law on other motorists giving way to emergency vehicles! The bus driver is 100% correct in remaining where he is until the lights change to green:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LSaNBofZ1o
  • bluesdiamondbluesdiamond Posts: 11,360
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    The other week a police car was behind me at a red light. I did not cross the light, just pulled out of the way to the left, despite indicating right. But surely only we know if we feel it is safe toroceed.
  • gothergother Posts: 14,655
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    Galaxy266 wrote: »
    I would never go through a red light to allow an emergency vehicle which was behind me to pass. People have done this in the past and been prosecuted for doing so; no allowances have been made whatsoever. I would wait until the lights changed to green and then move forward and give way to the emergency vehicle.

    Quite honestly, it's 2015, and I think it's high time that all emergency vehicles has a button inside their cab which, when pressed, will set all traffic lights in their path to green. This can be done, it isn't rocket science, and I really cannot understand why this hasn't been implemented right across the country.

    Edit............................ Here's a Metropolitan Police driver who doesn't know the law on other motorists giving way to emergency vehicles! The bus driver is 100% correct in remaining where he is until the lights change to green:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LSaNBofZ1o

    BIB isn't that already done in America? i agree it should be bought in over here it would save a lot of hassle.
  • SoundboxSoundbox Posts: 6,241
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    I saw this again today but this time I felt quite irritated with the ambulance driver. At the A41 junction (very busy multiple lane junction controlled by lights) the driver kept the sirens on when the cars were at red. Eventually the front car drove through red and nearly got sideswiped by another car. The cars behind that one were then pressured to do the same - all the time the siren was on. I know the driver had an important duty but stressing out other road users and pushing them through red is not good at all. I wished I'd recorded it now.
  • PlatinumStevePlatinumSteve Posts: 4,295
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    I find it fascinating to read your guy's comments on this, it seems to come up a lot. I'm also surprised that UK (and Europe maybe?) hasn't adopted the kind of laws we have over here move over/slow down laws.

    The law says flashing lights pull to the right (get out of their lane) and stop or slow down, or if stopped along side the road move to the other lane if possible, and/or slow down to well under the speed limit. So, with these laws when an emergency vehicle approaches any intersection all vehicles stop in place and the vehicle just takes anyway they can get through, it's the law in every state and it has made it much safer for emergency vehicles and traffic. I think the penalty is a fine, for impeding their progress.
  • welshkidwelshkid Posts: 2,192
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    MarellaK wrote: »
    I personally would not move out of the way if there were cameras and a potential fine and points on my licence. The few minutes or seconds spared wouldn't make much difference to the outcome as whoever is accompanying the patient, be it a doctor or paramedic, is qualified to deliver advanced life support - airway protection and CPR if needed.

    As I said earlier, we sometimes have to change over ambulances half way through a critical transfer. And, with the best will in the world, we will always get stuck at some point in central London traffic as there is sometimes just nowhere for cars to move to.

    I don't think a few minutes added to the journey is the ''difference between life and death''. Many of the blue lights you see are intra-hospital transfers of ICU patients who, although critical, are stable enough for a transfer.

    With the greatest respect the vast majority of blue light/siren ambulances are not on a inter-hospital critical care transfers.

    Critical Care does not start on admission to a ward it starts out in the community. I don't think a week goes past in my ED where you think "that was a close one

    If your statement was correct there would not be the slow shift to consultants being dispatched alongside ambulances in the community and the increase of people being transferred by helicopter over recent years. A significant amount of patients arriving to an ED in an ambulance with it's blue lights on can be classed as anything but stable, I can assure you.

    Although to be fair, far more Emergency Vehicles are attending an incident scene with it's lights on than leaving them 😉
  • bluebladeblueblade Posts: 88,859
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    spkx wrote: »
    Don't blame them for not moving and that's the fault of automatic cameras these days that issue fines regardless of circumstances/common sense.

    I agree. If you could rely on commonsense, reason and flexibility, I'd always move forward in such circumstances. But unfortunately, you can't.

    I think there should be some legal clarification about this scenario.
  • d0lphind0lphin Posts: 25,327
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    This happens fairly often to me as my route back from picking my son up from work involves driving past the ambulance station with a set of traffic lights nearby. I have gone through the lights on more than one occassion when it had been safe to do so and never been prosecuted.

    I'll take a chance on getting points on my licence - I don't have any others and I don't think it makes much difference to insurance premiums (my OH once had 6 points on his licence, 3 from speeding and 3 for jumping a red light and it didn't appear to increase our insurance, we still got it for under £200)
  • SoundboxSoundbox Posts: 6,241
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    I will ask the emergency services this question tomorrow and will let you know what they have to say.
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