Mainly in game chat. WoW was pretty terrible for it at first... 'what? you're a real girl? awesome!! Yes of course you can join our guild!'
Other games before WoW were even worse, especially male oriented games such as multiplayer air combat games. ...
Rather proves that I never played WoW! It was nearly always FPS, never much time to type anything, speech software was rarely used, and we always ganged up on the antisocial types until they behaved or left or a mod showed up. Or someone absolutely not me exited and temporarily killed their machine.
A bit surprised about the air combat one, though sticking with private servers clearly limited my experience. Or maybe I shouldn't be surprised, that is one area where people can get really carried away with their 'character' and not realise just how much of an @rse they are. On one hand there's always talk of community rules and respect but on the other there's always someone who has been there just too long and a boycott by their cronies when you ban them can be a serious financial block.
Side benefit of old FPS - easier to set up private servers and even a bad ADSL connection nowadays is better than dialup, so for someone like me who is convinced every modern game is utter pants it's been more a case of cowardly avoidance...
A small minority of hateful idiots does not equal everyone who takes issue of Sarkeesian's commentary on video games. It is perfectly possible to call Sarkeesian out on her arguments without resorting to hate speech and threats. I suspect the hate speech and threats she has got from a small minority is not the only reason she has disabled votes and comments on her videos, I suspect its because she doesn't want to defend her stance when people call her out on her arguments.
A small minority of hateful idiots does not equal everyone who takes issue of Sarkeesian's commentary on video games. It is perfectly possible to call Sarkeesian out on her arguments without resorting to hate speech and threats. I suspect the hate speech and threats she has got from a small minority is not the only reason she has disabled votes and comments on her videos, I suspect its because she doesn't want to defend her stance when people call her out on her arguments.
Yes some YT commentators have claimed that they asked her (politely) to provide evidence to back up some of her claims and had their comments deleted.
You have to ask, then, what is the point of making a video about sexism etc. in gaming if you are not willing to enter in to a discourse on the subject with the very community that these games are largely aimed at?
Mainly in game chat. WoW was pretty terrible for it at first... 'what? you're a real girl? awesome!! Yes of course you can join our guild!'
Other games before WoW were even worse, especially male oriented games such as multiplayer air combat games.
Get a female playing those and it often turned weird with certain males refusing to engage combat, others going out of their way to target them, and others aiding them. Whatever the outcome, you certainley got a lot more attention as a female in those games, so much so that guys sometimes pretended to be girls. Obviously something lacking in thier lives.
I agree with this. It was just not worth saying you were female as the reaction detracted from the gaming experience. In fact when I joined my guild it took a long time before I fessed up to my ladyness
That's not strictly true. Research consistently shows that women tend to prefer non-violent games, and certain types of games such as racing games, action RPGs, strategy games and first person shooters are played mostly by men. Story based/adventure RPGs and fantasy MMOs tend to have a more balanced audience, but I play EVE Online and only 4% of its players are women.
That's interesting, but 'research' isn't really a thing unless it's referenced. I mean how have they ensured they don't like certain genres and games because they simply haven't been marketed to them?
'Tend', means you can't draw a direct line down the middle. I know there are trends, but what I said was there are no specific games for men or women.
I know lots of girls who play violent games, I know a lot of guys who don't.
My favourite games are Age of Empires, Farcry, Last of Us and Dota. My gf informs me that she likes GTA, Minecraft, DayZ and the Sims. We enjoy a range of stuff together.
So I'm not really sure what difference it makes if more men like shooters or not. Everyone can enjoy what they like and should be able to feel welcome in the gaming community. I've no problem with people liking different things, I just don't like the attitude that 'oh, this is a violent game, no girls pls'.
I'm lucky in that my friends are a pretty cool mix and my gf isn't a 'girl gamer' to them, just a gamer, but it's a shame it has to come for us and not the developer and marketers.
Don't be silly, she sits on thrones and rocks with her dragons looking all powerful and stuff, she has to be a strong female character!? Certainly looks that way to the naive, and part of the massive problem with that show. Brainwashing at it's finest from HBO.
She often looks like she's posing for an advert for cologne...
It's funny that Anita picks out the Mafia 2 game, because there is a similar scenario in one of HBO's other shows, Boardwalk Empire, where a woman is shot dead during sex, and two males have a gunfight over her naked body. It's like HBO rounded up all the misogynistic writers they could find and then threw a ton of money at them.
It's also interesting that Whedon is involved now, I know a lot of people are fans of his work, from Buffy to Firefly and The Avengers etc. I wonder what The Avengers would be like on HBO, Black Widow would have been naked and r***ed by now I sadly suspect. It's character development for females according to HBO.
Based on public interviews we know HBO push for nudity, but they don't sound especially bothered about gender. True Detective creator Nic Pizzolatto was asked about nudity in an interview and said this:
There’s also the issue of nudity, which has been very boob-y (and HBO-y). How did you decide what the sex scenes would look like?
NP: The staging was more or less there in the scripts, and then Cary and I worked together on the execution. But there is a clear mandate in pay-cable for a certain level of nudity. Now, you’re not going to get our two lead movie stars to go full-frontal, but we at least got Matthew’s butt in there. There’s not a great deal of nudity in the series at all, though, compared to other shows on pay-cable. I’d be happy with none. Seems to me if people want to see naked people doing it, there’s this thing called “the internet.”
It sounds to me that the lack of male nudity is more due to a lack of male actors willing to do it (at least in True Detective's case) than necessarily writers attempting to get men off with their shows...
From what I've seen of Boardwalk Empire (I'm still on the first season, so please don't go in depth with spoilers) it depicts misogyny, whilst trying to avoid engaging in it. I don't think the balance is always there, but you can tell they're at least trying with the female characters. Though it was created by Terence Winter, who wrote The Wolf of Wall Street's screenplay, so make of that what you will. (Although I'd argue TWOWS is all told from Jordan Belfort's perspective, so the female characterisation may be more to do with his treatment of them, rather than lazy writing.)
Also, with your charge that HBO deliberately finds misogynistic writers, I'm curious to see what you think of Girls?
I was thinking that earlier when dmuk was moaning about HBO in general. Lena Dunham seems to have terrible trouble keeping her clothes on.
I believe Lena Dunham says she deliberately removes her clothes because she wants to try and help other women feel comfortable with their own bodies. Anyway, I wouldn't ask her about it...
Yeah, I'd go with this. And with regard to who plays... That's a significan demographic which even on business grounds it would be wrong to alienate.
I think I read that that statistic is fairly misleading because mobile games such as Candy Crush, Flappy Bird, Angry Birds etc. were included in the survey. Many people would argue that occasionally playing casual games on your phone does not make you a gamer.
If you only count people who regularly play PC or console games, there is still a disproportionate amount of males.
The gaming industry has a long way to go, and I think it could perhaps do more to attract female gamers.
It's funny that Anita picks out the Mafia 2 game, because there is a similar scenario in one of HBO's other shows, Boardwalk Empire, where a woman is shot dead during sex, and two males have a gunfight over her naked body. It's like HBO rounded up all the misogynistic writers they could find and then threw a ton of money at them.
You are aware that society was very male dominated and misogynistic back in the early 20th century so any television show set in that time period would naturally depict this.
It is possible to depict misogyny without actually being a misogynist.
I think I read that that statistic is fairly misleading because mobile games such as Candy Crush, Flappy Bird, Angry Birds etc. were included in the survey. Many people would argue that occasionally playing casual games on your phone does not make you a gamer.
Yeah, but I think those people are wrong. It's a bit precious of them to say "oh, but Angry Birds isn't proper gaming" when there are plenty of niche indie games PC gamers play which are every bit as "casual". Peggle, for example.
The gaming industry has a long way to go, and I think it could perhaps do more to attract female gamers.
I agree- or at the very least not to put off the female gamers it already has. I've heard a lot of women say they play various games *despite* things that to them leave a sour taste in the mouth, or that they would prefer it if games they already played had more options to cater for them, in terms of female player characters and less rigid gender stereotypes. BioWare are pretty good at inclusivity, but look at the abuse they got for allowing gay player characters.
You have to ask, then, what is the point of making a video about sexism etc. in gaming if you are not willing to enter in to a discourse on the subject with the very community that these games are largely aimed at?
Well, so far her kickstarter project has raised $158,000 toward the cost of producing her youtube video's.
Perhaps that has something to do with it?
Frankly, with $158k to burn through, I'd be expecting some pretty special YT video's.
There are many types of dolls for boys, they just call them action figures. Most areas of entertainment are more geared towards men than women, movies, sport, music...
As for gaming, to use a genre that is so open to imagination and creativity for just the lowest common denominator of lazy entertainment is quite sad.
It doesn't have to be explicit, some PG games have sexist themes and poor female characters.
Developers just don't know how to aim games at female audiences, or even to simply not alienate them. I'm not talking about games with princesses or make up tips btw, I'm talking about inclusion and depth.
So yes I do think it's sexist to exclude people from a form of entertainment in a way, through either neglect or stereotyping, it's just so needless.
I'd like to just mention The Last of Us and the Walking Dead though, as examples of rounded characters of both sex and plenty violence set at the right level of glorification.
but there are loads of strong female characters in games. Mass Effect, Tomb Raider, Dragon Age, Fallout, Beyond: Two Souls, Batman, Resident Evil, Bioshock Infinite, Metriod to name a few. In fact this really isn't an issue at all. She is just another attention seeking so called 'feminist' trying be outraged by every little thing and cherry picking worst examples and dressing this up as an issue when it really isn't. People like her are just a modern day version of Mary Whitehouse.
It is possible to depict misogyny without actually being a misogynist.
I think this sums up very well. With things like TV/ games you have to take into account the universe it's set in. Like GoT, it's in-universe world is identifiable with Middle Age standards, so women being treated as lesser than equal to the men there is consistent within the universe, not a reflection of the times we live in.
I play WoW and in fairness in-universe there is no real sexism that I can think of, male and female chars have the same abilities, and you aren't trapped by gender to which classes you can play. The community was pretty bad early days, but that seems to have died down a lot, and although there was and still are off colour comments on trade once in a while, I've never come across a case where it mattered what gender you were when questing, raiding, or pvping. All that matters is you can play your toon.
I know what you mean, I couldn't bring myself to call myself a "feminist" even if I agreed with the majority of what feminism stands for. The word itself has become a stick to beat people with in a way, like the word "liberal".
I don't know about left leaning newspapers lapping up her nonsense (not the issue, sexism in games does exist, just her series is poor at best). I've seen vids like Thundef00ts that cry that feminism is a poison and destroying atheism, let's just say it's not his finest moment. ;-)
'Feminism' is dead, long live equality i say............... Well the modern day movement has certainly gone down the pan and women are now beginning to speak out against it.
but there are loads of strong female characters in games. Mass Effect, Tomb Raider, Dragon Age, Fallout, Beyond: Two Souls, Batman, Resident Evil, Bioshock Infinite, Metriod to name a few. In fact this really isn't an issue at all. She is just another attention seeking so called 'feminist' trying be outraged by every little thing and cherry picking worst examples and dressing this up as an issue when it really isn't. People like her are just a modern day version of Mary Whitehouse.
I don't know all of those, but it seem to remember the girl on Beyond Two Souls being almost raped in a pool hall, and Lara Croft fighting off a rapist, as well as Alice in Resident Evil.
That's without even mentioning the exaggerated and quite massive tits on most of these strong women you are pointing out, not that it matters. Anyway, I didn't say there were no strong characters, I said there should be more.
I do think the blogger is just an attention seeking idiot,but that doesn't mean that there isn't an issue. I mean look at all the offence her opinion has caused. Honestly, her saying many computer games are quite sexist doesn't threaten me one bit, so why deny it?
'Feminism' is dead, long live equality i say............... Well the modern day movement has certainly gone down the pan and women are now beginning to speak out against it.
Equality is a good thing. But "women against feminism" just sounds as dumb to me as those they are attacking. I'm not sure if it's a major case of First World Problems on both sides, but for me there's a middle ground there, that I'm quite happy being in.
I don't know all of those, but it seem to remember the girl on Beyond Two Souls being almost raped in a pool hall, and Lara Croft fighting off a rapist, as well as Alice in Resident Evil.
That's without even mentioning the exaggerated and quite massive tits on most of these strong women you are pointing out, not that it matters. Anyway, I didn't say there were no strong characters, I said there should be more.
I do think the blogger is just an attention seeking idiot,but that doesn't mean that there isn't an issue. I mean look at all the offence her opinion has caused. Honestly, her saying many computer games are quite sexist doesn't threaten me one bit, so why deny it?
the issue and main concern is one of censorship though and i really don't think we need any quotas for strong female characters in games. There are plenty already.
There was an attempted rape scene in the Last of Us too which you mentioned, but all the characters in those games got the better of their male attackers. They certainly sent out a powerful message of how harrowing and nasty rape is, so I really don't see how this can be a bad thing?
Equality is a good thing. But "women against feminism" just sounds as dumb to me as those they are attacking. I'm not sure if it's a major case of First World Problems on both sides, but for me there's a middle ground there, that I'm quite happy being in.
it may sound dumb but it makes perfect sense when you start reading their testimonials. They aren't against the principles of equality just the direction modern feminism is heading in. It seems the majority of people who out themselves as feminists these days do tend to be the militant types. They may be a vocal minority but seem to be having a lot of influence in the press and media at the moment.
the issue and main concern is one of censorship though and i really don't think we need any quotas for strong female characters in games. There are plenty already.
There was an attempted rape scene in the Last of Us too which you mentioned, but all the characters in those games got the better of their male attackers. They certainly sent out a powerful message of how harrowing and nasty rape is, so I really don't see how this can be a bad thing?
Name a few male protagonists that fights off rapists.
(Farcry doesn't count as it's satire about rape in video games)
Of course it's a bad thing that so many of the strong female characters we are discussing are sexually attacked.
Do you really think it's sending out a powerful message, really?
Comments
A bit surprised about the air combat one, though sticking with private servers clearly limited my experience. Or maybe I shouldn't be surprised, that is one area where people can get really carried away with their 'character' and not realise just how much of an @rse they are. On one hand there's always talk of community rules and respect but on the other there's always someone who has been there just too long and a boycott by their cronies when you ban them can be a serious financial block.
Side benefit of old FPS - easier to set up private servers and even a bad ADSL connection nowadays is better than dialup, so for someone like me who is convinced every modern game is utter pants it's been more a case of cowardly avoidance...
Yes some YT commentators have claimed that they asked her (politely) to provide evidence to back up some of her claims and had their comments deleted.
You have to ask, then, what is the point of making a video about sexism etc. in gaming if you are not willing to enter in to a discourse on the subject with the very community that these games are largely aimed at?
I agree with this. It was just not worth saying you were female as the reaction detracted from the gaming experience. In fact when I joined my guild it took a long time before I fessed up to my ladyness
That's interesting, but 'research' isn't really a thing unless it's referenced. I mean how have they ensured they don't like certain genres and games because they simply haven't been marketed to them?
'Tend', means you can't draw a direct line down the middle. I know there are trends, but what I said was there are no specific games for men or women.
I know lots of girls who play violent games, I know a lot of guys who don't.
My favourite games are Age of Empires, Farcry, Last of Us and Dota. My gf informs me that she likes GTA, Minecraft, DayZ and the Sims. We enjoy a range of stuff together.
So I'm not really sure what difference it makes if more men like shooters or not. Everyone can enjoy what they like and should be able to feel welcome in the gaming community. I've no problem with people liking different things, I just don't like the attitude that 'oh, this is a violent game, no girls pls'.
I'm lucky in that my friends are a pretty cool mix and my gf isn't a 'girl gamer' to them, just a gamer, but it's a shame it has to come for us and not the developer and marketers.
Based on public interviews we know HBO push for nudity, but they don't sound especially bothered about gender. True Detective creator Nic Pizzolatto was asked about nudity in an interview and said this:
It sounds to me that the lack of male nudity is more due to a lack of male actors willing to do it (at least in True Detective's case) than necessarily writers attempting to get men off with their shows...
From what I've seen of Boardwalk Empire (I'm still on the first season, so please don't go in depth with spoilers) it depicts misogyny, whilst trying to avoid engaging in it. I don't think the balance is always there, but you can tell they're at least trying with the female characters. Though it was created by Terence Winter, who wrote The Wolf of Wall Street's screenplay, so make of that what you will. (Although I'd argue TWOWS is all told from Jordan Belfort's perspective, so the female characterisation may be more to do with his treatment of them, rather than lazy writing.)
Also, with your charge that HBO deliberately finds misogynistic writers, I'm curious to see what you think of Girls?
I was thinking that earlier when dmuk was moaning about HBO in general. Lena Dunham seems to have terrible trouble keeping her clothes on.
I believe Lena Dunham says she deliberately removes her clothes because she wants to try and help other women feel comfortable with their own bodies. Anyway, I wouldn't ask her about it...
I think I read that that statistic is fairly misleading because mobile games such as Candy Crush, Flappy Bird, Angry Birds etc. were included in the survey. Many people would argue that occasionally playing casual games on your phone does not make you a gamer.
If you only count people who regularly play PC or console games, there is still a disproportionate amount of males.
The gaming industry has a long way to go, and I think it could perhaps do more to attract female gamers.
You are aware that society was very male dominated and misogynistic back in the early 20th century so any television show set in that time period would naturally depict this.
It is possible to depict misogyny without actually being a misogynist.
Yeah, but I think those people are wrong. It's a bit precious of them to say "oh, but Angry Birds isn't proper gaming" when there are plenty of niche indie games PC gamers play which are every bit as "casual". Peggle, for example.
Yeah, this is true, but see above.
I agree- or at the very least not to put off the female gamers it already has. I've heard a lot of women say they play various games *despite* things that to them leave a sour taste in the mouth, or that they would prefer it if games they already played had more options to cater for them, in terms of female player characters and less rigid gender stereotypes. BioWare are pretty good at inclusivity, but look at the abuse they got for allowing gay player characters.
Well, so far her kickstarter project has raised $158,000 toward the cost of producing her youtube video's.
Perhaps that has something to do with it?
Frankly, with $158k to burn through, I'd be expecting some pretty special YT video's.
Lordy. You could make a feature film with that.
1/40 of an episode of Game of Thrones - or a whole episode if you leave out the wieners
Lots of dungarees?
/ runs for cover
but there are loads of strong female characters in games. Mass Effect, Tomb Raider, Dragon Age, Fallout, Beyond: Two Souls, Batman, Resident Evil, Bioshock Infinite, Metriod to name a few. In fact this really isn't an issue at all. She is just another attention seeking so called 'feminist' trying be outraged by every little thing and cherry picking worst examples and dressing this up as an issue when it really isn't. People like her are just a modern day version of Mary Whitehouse.
I think this sums up very well. With things like TV/ games you have to take into account the universe it's set in. Like GoT, it's in-universe world is identifiable with Middle Age standards, so women being treated as lesser than equal to the men there is consistent within the universe, not a reflection of the times we live in.
I play WoW and in fairness in-universe there is no real sexism that I can think of, male and female chars have the same abilities, and you aren't trapped by gender to which classes you can play. The community was pretty bad early days, but that seems to have died down a lot, and although there was and still are off colour comments on trade once in a while, I've never come across a case where it mattered what gender you were when questing, raiding, or pvping. All that matters is you can play your toon.
'Feminism' is dead, long live equality i say............... Well the modern day movement has certainly gone down the pan and women are now beginning to speak out against it.
https://www.facebook.com/WomenAgainstFeminism
I don't know all of those, but it seem to remember the girl on Beyond Two Souls being almost raped in a pool hall, and Lara Croft fighting off a rapist, as well as Alice in Resident Evil.
That's without even mentioning the exaggerated and quite massive tits on most of these strong women you are pointing out, not that it matters. Anyway, I didn't say there were no strong characters, I said there should be more.
I do think the blogger is just an attention seeking idiot,but that doesn't mean that there isn't an issue. I mean look at all the offence her opinion has caused. Honestly, her saying many computer games are quite sexist doesn't threaten me one bit, so why deny it?
Equality is a good thing. But "women against feminism" just sounds as dumb to me as those they are attacking. I'm not sure if it's a major case of First World Problems on both sides, but for me there's a middle ground there, that I'm quite happy being in.
the issue and main concern is one of censorship though and i really don't think we need any quotas for strong female characters in games. There are plenty already.
The latest Lara Croft was toned down wasn't she?
http://www.ishorrible.com/yourgame/lara-croft-the-times-they-are-a-changin
There was an attempted rape scene in the Last of Us too which you mentioned, but all the characters in those games got the better of their male attackers. They certainly sent out a powerful message of how harrowing and nasty rape is, so I really don't see how this can be a bad thing?
it may sound dumb but it makes perfect sense when you start reading their testimonials. They aren't against the principles of equality just the direction modern feminism is heading in. It seems the majority of people who out themselves as feminists these days do tend to be the militant types. They may be a vocal minority but seem to be having a lot of influence in the press and media at the moment.
Name a few male protagonists that fights off rapists.
(Farcry doesn't count as it's satire about rape in video games)
Of course it's a bad thing that so many of the strong female characters we are discussing are sexually attacked.
Do you really think it's sending out a powerful message, really?