Clinically dead pregnant woman being kept alive on life support

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  • irishfeenirishfeen Posts: 10,025
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    They don't "keep" people alive. They are helping people stay alive. This woman is dead. She happened to be in hospital when she died. So they are using her as a host for something that might not even be viable.

    If she had died out of the hospital, then all the better for everyone.
    Well not better for the child.
  • StressMonkeyStressMonkey Posts: 13,347
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    anne_666 wrote: »
    Keeping her alive is playing God and torturing her family.

    Who the hell do they think they are. Where will this end. Anyone pregnant and dead will be kept on life support? It's religion based insanity and cruelty.

    I don't understand why this is an abortion debate either. She is dead, the families wishes come before anyone else's.

    The foetus has no viable life outside of the womb.

    Makes a nice change to 100% agree with you Anne :D

    Shame it's such a sad subject :(
  • irishfeenirishfeen Posts: 10,025
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    I didn't realise the law in Ireland was so different. How bizarre.

    If the murderer didn't know about the foetus is it manslaughter?
    As you say it's the law in Ireland that from conception the foetus/child has equal rights to both its mother and father - that's the wish of the majority in many many referendums.
  • epicurianepicurian Posts: 19,291
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    anne_666 wrote: »
    Keeping her alive is playing God and torturing her family.

    Who the hell do they think they are. Where will this end. Anyone pregnant and dead will be kept on life support? It's religion based insanity and cruelty.

    I don't understand why this is an abortion debate either. She is dead, the families wishes come before anyone else's.

    The foetus has no viable life outside of the womb.

    Quoted for truth.

    If they don't want to play god, they need to take her off life support.
  • Speak-SoftlySpeak-Softly Posts: 24,737
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    Not sure what this has to do with the abortion debate.

    The mother had a fatal accident, doctors did their best, she in all probability was put on life support as quickly as possible, and after all that, they find the baby is still alive.

    So what to do?

    Can the doctors in all conscience turn the machines off?

    The baby is a part of the mother isn't it?
    That's what we are constantly told, it doesn't exist without the mother,
    So it's part of the mother that is still alive.

    Would people be in support of the family so much if it were for religious reasons they wanted the life support switched off?

    I find it hard to understand why they would.:confused:
  • anne_666anne_666 Posts: 72,891
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    reglip wrote: »
    This a medical ethics issue btw not an abortion issue. Why are people assuming the normal approach in this situation is just to abort the baby if they haven't got the mothers intentions

    It's not a medical ethics issue. It's a ridiculous legal issue caused by, who else but Catholics and their denial of human rights abortion laws.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/18/irish-doctors-legal-advice-brain-dead-pregnant-woman
    But even though there is no chance of revival, doctors at the hospital are reluctant to carry out her family’s wishes because she is 16 weeks pregnant.

    Under the 8th amendment to the Irish Republic’s constitution the foetus inside her is as much an Irish citizen as the clinically dead mother.

    In 1983 a coalition of conservative Catholic pressure groups sought and won a national referendum that effectively made even the embryo after conception an Irish citizen fully protected under the law.

    The news about the dilemma facing the medical team emerged less than 24 hours after Ireland’s health minister, Leo Varadkar, admitted that even the country’s latest reform of the abortion law was too restrictive and imposed a “chilling effect” on Irish doctors.


    Who's playing God here? It's ok when they want their own way but sod any women's rights.
  • irishfeenirishfeen Posts: 10,025
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    epicurian wrote: »
    Quoted for truth.

    If they don't want to play god, they need to take her off life support.
    They can't do that - the doctors would be liable in an Irish court of law, possibly brought up on a murder charge.
  • StressMonkeyStressMonkey Posts: 13,347
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    irishfeen wrote: »
    As you say it's the law in Ireland that from conception the foetus/child has equal rights to both its mother and father - that's the wish of the majority in many many referendums.

    I knew you couldn't get an abortion, but I hadn't realised how far weighted the law is. And being 'next door neighbours' countries I am a little embarrassed I had so little knowledge of your laws. It does seem such an alien concept to me that anyone could put the 'life' of a foetus on equal footing with a living, breathing woman. Almost medieval to have that kind of control over a woman's body :( I know you mention equal to the father, but isn't the one affected is he. His rights are in no way compromised by those of the foetus :(
  • thefairydandythefairydandy Posts: 3,235
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    I find it a bit bizarre that people are saying the mother is being treated simply as a host. Every woman who chooses to get pregnant chooses to act as a host, often willingly sacrificing personal wants in order to have their child arrive safely.

    There's nothing to suggest whether the woman would be happy or angry about this decision.
  • anne_666anne_666 Posts: 72,891
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    irishfeen wrote: »
    They can't do that - the doctors would be liable in an Irish court of law, possibly brought up on a murder charge.

    That is a damned disgrace and off the scale religious insanity.
  • Chilli DragonChilli Dragon Posts: 24,684
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    I find it a bit bizarre that people are saying the mother is being treated simply as a host. Every woman who chooses to get pregnant chooses to act as a host, often willingly sacrificing personal wants in order to have their child arrive safely.

    There's nothing to suggest whether the woman would be happy or angry about this decision.

    She's dead. There is no choice about being a host.
  • reglipreglip Posts: 5,268
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    There are many reasons why a 17 week old foetus would not survive, even if the mother is in full health. In this case it's being kept alive solely because of unwanted medical intervention. It would not otherwise be viable.

    It should be the decision of the people who are in the best position to judge and who's lives will be affected by it. No-one else.

    Well exactly but if anything were to happen the baby will be in the best place possibly with better chances of survival
  • epicurianepicurian Posts: 19,291
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    irishfeen wrote: »
    They can't do that - the doctors would be liable in an Irish court of law, possibly brought up on a murder charge.

    I understand legally they cannot, but you brought up how wrong it would be for them to play god, when that is exactly what they are doing in keeping her on life support.
  • Mark39LondonMark39London Posts: 3,977
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    anne_666 wrote: »
    That is a damned disgrace and off the scale religious insanity.

    Quite, it is blatant control of qualified and informed medical professionals by an outdated and deluded religion that belongs in the dark ages.
  • viertevierte Posts: 4,286
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    Quite, it is blatant control of qualified and informed medical professionals by an outdated and deluded religion that belongs in the dark ages.

    Completely agree with this and also with the poster who mentioned the circumstances of the family and their ability to look after a newborn plus two other children.
  • reglipreglip Posts: 5,268
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    They don't "keep" people alive. They are helping people stay alive. This woman is dead. She happened to be in hospital when she died. So they are using her as a host for something that might not even be viable.

    If she had died out of the hospital, then all the better for everyone.

    No they are keeping people alive otherwise they wouldnt be in a critical care ward. If you are unable to maintain your own body and the hospital take over your breathing they are keeping you alive
  • anne_666anne_666 Posts: 72,891
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    reglip wrote: »
    Keeping people alive is what critical care units do routinely otherwise we would still have high mortality rates. They put you to sleep and take over your bodies normal functions to allow you to recover she will have been kept alive for some time before this it isn't playing god

    I'm aware of that. She has no chance of recovery.

    This is bronze age religious insanity and control, coupled with using modern technology to promote one aspect of it.
  • reglipreglip Posts: 5,268
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    anne_666 wrote: »
    It's not a medical ethics issue. It's a ridiculous legal issue caused by, who else but Catholics and their denial of human rights abortion laws.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/18/irish-doctors-legal-advice-brain-dead-pregnant-woman

    No its not it is a medical ethics issue but no doubt also you could discuss religion equally if you wish. Do you think this is something that has only happened in Ireland and in other cases it was a simple decision?

    In the 28 year period between 1982 and 2010, there were "30 [reported] cases of maternal brain death (19 case reports and 1 case series)."[2] In 12 of those cases, a viable child was delivered via cesarean section after extended somatic support.[2] However, according to Esmaelilzadeh, et al. there is no widely accepted protocol to manage a brain dead mother "since only a few reported cases are found in the medical literature."[2] Moreover, the mother's wishes are rarely, if ever, known, and family should be consulted in developing a care plan.[2]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_somatic_support_after_brain_death


    Extended somatic support means life support and that the family should be consulted not given the final decision as that decision lies with medical staff
  • Speak-SoftlySpeak-Softly Posts: 24,737
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    anne_666 wrote: »
    I'm aware of that. She has no chance of recovery.

    Part of her does.

    How can you separate them without accepting the anti abortionist point that the foetus is a separate entity?
  • reglipreglip Posts: 5,268
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    anne_666 wrote: »
    I'm aware of that. She has no chance of recovery.

    This is bronze age religious insanity and control, coupled with using modern technology to promote one aspect of it.

    You can repeat and repeat that you believe it is a religious issue but i can assure you that doctors tend to view preserving life pretty highly as well no matter what country
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,249
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    irishfeen wrote: »
    It is to me, I would be deeply ashamed of this country if the doctors had the right to act God ..

    Isn't that what they're doing by keeping her alive?
  • Speak-SoftlySpeak-Softly Posts: 24,737
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    anne_666 wrote: »
    I'm aware of that. She has no chance of recovery.

    This is bronze age religious insanity and control, coupled with using modern technology to promote one aspect of it.

    How are you so sure it isn't "bronze age religious insanity" that has prompted the family to want the life support switched off?

    What if the family was supportive of her staying on life support?
    Would you be arguing that the doctors must switch off life support?
  • ElectraElectra Posts: 55,660
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    Red John wrote: »
    Isn't that what they're doing by keeping her alive?

    They're not keeping her alive though. She's dead. They're just keeping her corpse functioning.
  • anne_666anne_666 Posts: 72,891
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    How are you so sure it isn't "bronze age religious insanity" that has prompted the family to want the life support switched off?

    What if the family was supportive of her staying on life support?
    Would you be arguing that the doctors must switch off life support?

    I am pro choice.The Catholic pressured law enforcing this action in Ireland isn't.
  • irishfeenirishfeen Posts: 10,025
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    I can't believe most of you didn't know the position of the unborn in Ireland - It is a very very divisive issue here.
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