if they were muslims nothing would happen. but since we all recognise they are nothing but a bunch of murderous mercenaries we know the outcome.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps, it is interesting though that when ISIS were looking for a British Citizen to take hostage and kill they chose Alan Henning who was by absolute chance the only non Muslim in that aid convoy of British Citizens. Was that a message to British people or was it a message to non Muslims?
A great many Mexicans might disagree with you on that.
So you think the deaths and the cause of deaths of mostly those involved in the drugs trade is comparable to that of people being killed just because they're people with a different or zero religious interest
If you want to find a link between Islam and poppy derived drugs, I suggest you look at followers of Abraham and where they came from. That's when and where mass poppy cultivation started, just about where the Old Testament started.
So you think the deaths and the cause of deaths of mostly those involved in the drugs trade is comparable to that of people being killed just because they're people with a different or zero religious interest
.
Yes, why how are the corpses different ? Is one death more acceptable ? In both cases the life of someone else was deemed of little or no value. In both cases the innocent suffered at the hands of those who chose to put there needs above others. In both cases the guilty person had a choices, they chose to follow a path of violence and exactly how they justify that is neither here nor there at this stage. The end result is still the same. Someone died who, most likely, never deserved to. Someone died because someone made a choice. If you want to not pick and justify one as a lesser or greater evil then fair enough. If because God was involved in one and profit in another we should consider the result differently...well I'm not sure just how that works. People died, it could have been avoided. However that's just dressing up im pretty sure would be of little comfort to the loved ones left behind.
Gods, guns or money don't kill people...they are just used as excuses for those who wanted one,
Did you expect me to list every global atrocity in my post to justify my "of the worst kind" comment? Come on. Islamics commit atrocities of the worst kind. You're entitled to think otherwise. I don't, irrespective of Mexican drug cartels and mafias around the world generally. The latter are arguably equally of the "worst kind" if they're beheading innocent people in the name of a fake god. Are they?
.
I don't expect you to do anything. I was merely pointing out that not every atrocity is Islamic. If you wish to agree or disagree then your free to but I would be interest in why the example i have wouldnt be considered. I really dont consider one to be somehow bette, not sure I would want to even consider how one is more or less acceptable.. Beheaded in the name of a false god or beheaded because a family member might have informed to the authorities, for example, is equally abhorrent to me.
Assuming your point is "it's not the book, it's the people" then you're apparently sharing notes with 2+2. People read the idiotic texts, then go out and kill people. Both texts and people carrying out their vile dictats are to blame.
No, my point was that without knowing the full detail for the very basic scenario i gave we can only guess, we cannot know. Maybe every single Muslim who kills in the name of Islam is motivated just by that, or maybe some just wanted to kill and maim and then have an excuse. Either way, they had a choice so I personally wont hold the book solely responsible. I will hold them responsible for the sins they committed. The book may be full of blood and thunder and a thousands ways to kill your lover but until such time as every single Muslim who reads it suddenly acts the same way I think I have to consider that they had a choice. I kinda agree with you when you say "Both texts and people carrying out their vile dictats are to blame" (not sure about vile, never read it myself but I'll take your word for it) However since not every person that does read doesn't act the same it must be a little more complicated. Why do we see followers of the same faith act is such widely varying ways ?
Yes, why how are the corpses different ? Is one death more acceptable ? In both cases the life of someone else was deemed of little or no value. In both cases the innocent suffered at the hands of those who chose to put there needs above others. In both cases the guilty person had a choices, they chose to follow a path of violence and exactly how they justify that is neither here nor there at this stage. The end result is still the same. Someone died who, most likely, never deserved to. Someone died because someone made a choice. If you want to not pick and justify one as a lesser or greater evil then fair enough. If because God was involved in one and profit in another we should consider the result differently...well I'm not sure just how that works. People died, it could have been avoided. However that's just dressing up im pretty sure would be of little comfort to the loved ones left behind.
Gods, guns or money don't kill people...they are just used as excuses for those who wanted one,
Are there any books, pamphlets, essays, ect. written, that can be interpreted by drug cartels, to justify the killing?
Are their millions of drug pushers encouraging people to read the aforesaid books ect., insisting that those books ect, contain the universal truth?
Pretty sure if somebody was to put out a book of instruction on how to re wire a plug, for instance, and it could be interpreted in a way that ends up with people sticking their fingers in a live socket, there would be calls to have the book banned.
The author of course could say he/she didn't mean it that way but I doubt that would stand up in court if one of the sentences read "stick your fingers in the live socket".
Are there any books, pamphlets, essays, ect. written, that can be interpreted by drug cartels, to justify the killing?
Are their millions of drug pushers encouraging people to read the aforesaid books ect., insisting that those books ect, contain the universal truth?
Pretty sure if somebody was to put out a book of instruction on how to re wire a plug, for instance, and it could be interpreted in a way that ends up with people sticking their fingers in a live socket, there would be calls to have the book banned.
The author of course could say he/she didn't mean it that way but I doubt that would stand up in court if one of the sentences read "stick your fingers in the live socket".
If there was, would it make what they do more or less acceptable ?
If there was, would it make what they do more or less acceptable ?
It's not acceptable full stop.
However if there were such books, one could imagine that people who saw the books for what they were would not be too impressed with their widespread distribution and promotion.
Yes, why how are the corpses different ? Is one death more acceptable ? In both cases the life of someone else was deemed of little or no value. In both cases the innocent suffered at the hands of those who chose to put there needs above others. In both cases the guilty person had a choices, they chose to follow a path of violence and exactly how they justify that is neither here nor there at this stage. The end result is still the same. Someone died who, most likely, never deserved to. Someone died because someone made a choice. If you want to not pick and justify one as a lesser or greater evil then fair enough. If because God was involved in one and profit in another we should consider the result differently...well I'm not sure just how that works. People died, it could have been avoided. However that's just dressing up im pretty sure would be of little comfort to the loved ones left behind.
Gods, guns or money don't kill people...they are just used as excuses for those who wanted one,
Sorry I don't recognise the comparison you're trying to make between Islamic killers and those in the drugs market, they are completely different other than there are corpses. But there are also the corpses and the misery resulting from the use of opium that will surely outstrip any drug gang warfare and if you want to nail that one, don't look at Mexico, look at Afghanistan, the world's biggest producer of opium and cannabis.
Sorry I don't recognise the comparison you're trying to make between Islamic killers and those in the drugs market, they are completely different other than there are corpses. But there are also the corpses and the misery resulting from the use of opium that will surely outstrip any drug gang warfare and if you want to nail that one, don't look at Mexico, look at Afghanistan, the world's biggest producer of opium and cannabis.
I do. Both use intimidation, violence and mass killings of innocents to be Lord of the Manor, above the law and the rulers of the local vicinity. The only major difference is people like the taliban use religion to justify their superiority of being the chosen ones to rule the land.
Afghanistans opium production is now double what it used to be prior to ours and the US invasion in Oct 2001
I do. Both use intimidation, violence and mass killings of innocents to be Lord of the Manor, above the law and the rulers of the local vicinity. The only major difference is people like the taliban use religion to justify their superiority of being the chosen ones to rule the land.
Afghanistans opium production is now double what it used to be prior to ours and the US invasion in Oct 2001
Are there any books, pamphlets, essays, ect. written, that can be interpreted by drug cartels, to justify the killing?
If you want to know what books and ideologies have killed the most innocent people in the name of their ideology then you need only look at the non religious ideologies of political extremists. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pul Pot, Kim Jong-il were not muslims. Or you can look at nationalism and bigotry and ethnic hatred. The world unfortunately has a very long history of genocides both past, recent, and ongoing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides_by_death_toll
If you want to know what books and ideologies have killed the most innocent people in the name of their ideology then you need only look at the non religious ideologies of political extremists. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pul Pot, Kim Jong-il were not muslims. Or you can look at nationalism and bigotry and ethnic hatred. The world unfortunately has a very long history of genocides both past, recent, and ongoing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides_by_death_toll
The estimated amount of people killed by Islamic conquests is 270 million in the last 1,000 years. Islam destroyed the culture of Persia, Egypt and Afghanistan to name a few.
Tamerlane killed between 12 and 15 million and put entire populations to the sword, he built towers from human skills are eradicating the local people. Vlad Dracul who defended Romania from the Ottoman Turks is regarded as a hero in the region for warding the Islamic conquest at the time.
The term genocide was created for what the Ottoman Empire did to the Armenians when they expelled some 1.5 million from their own country,
The estimated amount of people killed by Islamic conquests is 270 million in the last 1,000 years. Islam destroyed the culture of Persia, Egypt and Afghanistan to name a few.
Tamerlane killed between 12 and 15 million and put entire populations to the sword, he built towers from human skills are eradicating the local people. Vlad Dracul who defended Romania from the Ottoman Turks is regarded as a hero in the region for warding the Islamic conquest at the time.
Googling your 270 million reveals it to be a claim for over 1400 years and to include wars and the slave trade to the Americas and a figure that has been undermined by people checking the citations for the various figuers.
Total = 12.7 million not 270 million people killed by Muslims over about 1,400 years and not specifically in the name of Islam either.
The term genocide was created for what the Ottoman Empire did to the Armenians when they expelled some 1.5 million from their own country,
And in the Armenian genocide muslim Armenians were killed along with the other Armenians with a goverment official at the time quoted as saying "politics have no religion".
If Islam is to be held resoponsible for all deaths caused by Muslims including in wars and conquest and killings not committed in the name of Islam then even 120 million over 1400 years seems a low total for a religion followed by in the region of a fifth or more of the human race. The first and second world war death tolls alone are estimated to total from 55 million to 150 million. While China with its huge population of about one fifth of the worlds population has seen the Taiping rebellion 20 to 100 million, theThree Kingdoms war estimated at 36 to 40 million, the Qing dynasty conquest 25 million, Chinese civil wars 8 million, etc; and that is just wars.
While China with its huge population of about one fifth of the worlds population has seen the Taiping rebellion 20 to 100 million, theThree Kingdoms war estimated at 36 to 40 million, the Qing dynasty conquest 25 million, Chinese civil wars 8 million, etc; and that is just wars.
2014.12.19 (Laghman, Afghanistan) - A woman is killed and six children injured from Taliban shrapnel.
2014.12.17 (Abu Ghraib, Iraq) - An 8-year-old boy and his mother are among five people dismantled by a Mujahid roadside blast.
2014.12.17 (Lashkar Gah, Afghanistan) - A Fedayeen suicide assault on a bank leaves ten others dead.
2014.12.16 (Peshawar, Pakistan) - One-hundred and thirty-two children are among over one-hundred and forty murdered in cold blood by Taliban gunmen, who attacked their school shouting praises to Allah.
2014.12.16 (Radaa, Yemen) - Twenty schoolgirls are among thirty-one innocents pulled into pieces by two Sunni suicide bombers.
2014.12.16 (Mosul, Iraq) - ISIS releases video of a mass beheading with thirteen victims kneeling in front of Shahada flags.
Now, let us have a closer look at what the Koran says about the infidels:-
Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)
The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
(22:19)
Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)
Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)
Pay the poor-due. 2:43
Be good to parents, relatives, orphans, and the needy. Speak kindly and pay the poor-due. 2:83
The Jews say the Christians are wrong, and vice versa. Yet they both believe in the Scriptures. 2:113
Give of your wealth to family, relatives, and the needy. Set slaves free. 2:177
Do not fight wars of aggression. 2:190
Spend your money for good: to help your parents, your family, orphans, wayfarers, and the needy. 2:215
"Make not Allah, by your oaths, a hindrance to ... making peace among mankind." 2:224
"Kill not one another." 4:29
It is good to help the poor and make peace. 4:114
Value justice, for both poor and rich, even when it adversely affects you or your family's interests. 4:135
Don't hate other people. Treat everyone fairly. 5:8
"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion."/"O people of the Book, do not be fanatical in your faith." 4:171
Be kind and forgiving toward others. 7:199
And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it. 8:61
"Do not evil in the earth."/Treat people fairly, respect their possessions, and avoid evil. 11:85
Good and evil are not the same. Repel evil with goodness. That way your enemies will become your friends. 41:34
Live peacefully with disbelievers. 43:88-89
Let each person believe (or disbelieve) whatever he or she wishes. 109:1, 6
Now watch the attempts to discredit this - from the same book the anti-Islamists quote from.
Yes we could play.
Though you and other Muslims can not deny your Holy Book commands death
Out of context and of the time it was written? Sure. Aspects that don't/shouldn't apply to today? Sure.
But that's not the point and the image you were trying to paint were you? Suffice to say I don't think you like it when quoting the Qur'an is responded to and nullified.
Comments
if they were muslims nothing would happen. but since we all recognise they are nothing but a bunch of murderous mercenaries we know the outcome.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps, it is interesting though that when ISIS were looking for a British Citizen to take hostage and kill they chose Alan Henning who was by absolute chance the only non Muslim in that aid convoy of British Citizens. Was that a message to British people or was it a message to non Muslims?
Yes, why how are the corpses different ? Is one death more acceptable ? In both cases the life of someone else was deemed of little or no value. In both cases the innocent suffered at the hands of those who chose to put there needs above others. In both cases the guilty person had a choices, they chose to follow a path of violence and exactly how they justify that is neither here nor there at this stage. The end result is still the same. Someone died who, most likely, never deserved to. Someone died because someone made a choice. If you want to not pick and justify one as a lesser or greater evil then fair enough. If because God was involved in one and profit in another we should consider the result differently...well I'm not sure just how that works. People died, it could have been avoided. However that's just dressing up im pretty sure would be of little comfort to the loved ones left behind.
Gods, guns or money don't kill people...they are just used as excuses for those who wanted one,
I don't expect you to do anything. I was merely pointing out that not every atrocity is Islamic. If you wish to agree or disagree then your free to but I would be interest in why the example i have wouldnt be considered. I really dont consider one to be somehow bette, not sure I would want to even consider how one is more or less acceptable.. Beheaded in the name of a false god or beheaded because a family member might have informed to the authorities, for example, is equally abhorrent to me.
No, my point was that without knowing the full detail for the very basic scenario i gave we can only guess, we cannot know. Maybe every single Muslim who kills in the name of Islam is motivated just by that, or maybe some just wanted to kill and maim and then have an excuse. Either way, they had a choice so I personally wont hold the book solely responsible. I will hold them responsible for the sins they committed. The book may be full of blood and thunder and a thousands ways to kill your lover but until such time as every single Muslim who reads it suddenly acts the same way I think I have to consider that they had a choice. I kinda agree with you when you say "Both texts and people carrying out their vile dictats are to blame" (not sure about vile, never read it myself but I'll take your word for it) However since not every person that does read doesn't act the same it must be a little more complicated. Why do we see followers of the same faith act is such widely varying ways ?
Are there any books, pamphlets, essays, ect. written, that can be interpreted by drug cartels, to justify the killing?
Are their millions of drug pushers encouraging people to read the aforesaid books ect., insisting that those books ect, contain the universal truth?
Pretty sure if somebody was to put out a book of instruction on how to re wire a plug, for instance, and it could be interpreted in a way that ends up with people sticking their fingers in a live socket, there would be calls to have the book banned.
The author of course could say he/she didn't mean it that way but I doubt that would stand up in court if one of the sentences read "stick your fingers in the live socket".
If there was, would it make what they do more or less acceptable ?
It's not acceptable full stop.
However if there were such books, one could imagine that people who saw the books for what they were would not be too impressed with their widespread distribution and promotion.
Sorry I don't recognise the comparison you're trying to make between Islamic killers and those in the drugs market, they are completely different other than there are corpses. But there are also the corpses and the misery resulting from the use of opium that will surely outstrip any drug gang warfare and if you want to nail that one, don't look at Mexico, look at Afghanistan, the world's biggest producer of opium and cannabis.
I do. Both use intimidation, violence and mass killings of innocents to be Lord of the Manor, above the law and the rulers of the local vicinity. The only major difference is people like the taliban use religion to justify their superiority of being the chosen ones to rule the land.
Afghanistans opium production is now double what it used to be prior to ours and the US invasion in Oct 2001
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22150482
That's correct, but I bet you the next one is.
And likely the next 100 ones.
That's correct, but I bet you the next one is.
And likely the next 100 ones.[/QUOTE]
http://www.unian.info/society/1023777-sbu-detains-luhansk-woman-planning-terrorist-attack-in-kyiv.html
The estimated amount of people killed by Islamic conquests is 270 million in the last 1,000 years. Islam destroyed the culture of Persia, Egypt and Afghanistan to name a few.
Tamerlane killed between 12 and 15 million and put entire populations to the sword, he built towers from human skills are eradicating the local people. Vlad Dracul who defended Romania from the Ottoman Turks is regarded as a hero in the region for warding the Islamic conquest at the time.
The term genocide was created for what the Ottoman Empire did to the Armenians when they expelled some 1.5 million from their own country,
If Islam is to be held resoponsible for all deaths caused by Muslims including in wars and conquest and killings not committed in the name of Islam then even 120 million over 1400 years seems a low total for a religion followed by in the region of a fifth or more of the human race. The first and second world war death tolls alone are estimated to total from 55 million to 150 million. While China with its huge population of about one fifth of the worlds population has seen the Taiping rebellion 20 to 100 million, theThree Kingdoms war estimated at 36 to 40 million, the Qing dynasty conquest 25 million, Chinese civil wars 8 million, etc; and that is just wars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI74lOgfxk4&feature=youtu.be&t=2m7s
The peaceful majority is irrelevant.
The EDL are racists, the majority of English people are peaceful.
I thought very meaningful on the basis this was quite near the top of Blairs justifiable reasons to invade Afghanistan.
http://www.unian.info/society/1023777-sbu-detains-luhansk-woman-planning-terrorist-attack-in-kyiv.html[/QUOTE]
2014.12.19 (Laghman, Afghanistan) - A woman is killed and six children injured from Taliban shrapnel.
2014.12.17 (Abu Ghraib, Iraq) - An 8-year-old boy and his mother are among five people dismantled by a Mujahid roadside blast.
2014.12.17 (Lashkar Gah, Afghanistan) - A Fedayeen suicide assault on a bank leaves ten others dead.
2014.12.16 (Peshawar, Pakistan) - One-hundred and thirty-two children are among over one-hundred and forty murdered in cold blood by Taliban gunmen, who attacked their school shouting praises to Allah.
2014.12.16 (Radaa, Yemen) - Twenty schoolgirls are among thirty-one innocents pulled into pieces by two Sunni suicide bombers.
2014.12.16 (Mosul, Iraq) - ISIS releases video of a mass beheading with thirteen victims kneeling in front of Shahada flags.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2881667/British-rock-musician-turned-ISIS-extremist-luring-teenage-girls-Syria-Twitter-promise-awesome-life-jihadi-bride.html
Things like this?
Now, let us have a closer look at what the Koran says about the infidels:-
Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)
The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
(22:19)
Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)
Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)
Pay the poor-due. 2:43
Be good to parents, relatives, orphans, and the needy. Speak kindly and pay the poor-due. 2:83
The Jews say the Christians are wrong, and vice versa. Yet they both believe in the Scriptures. 2:113
Give of your wealth to family, relatives, and the needy. Set slaves free. 2:177
Do not fight wars of aggression. 2:190
Spend your money for good: to help your parents, your family, orphans, wayfarers, and the needy. 2:215
"Make not Allah, by your oaths, a hindrance to ... making peace among mankind." 2:224
"Kill not one another." 4:29
It is good to help the poor and make peace. 4:114
Value justice, for both poor and rich, even when it adversely affects you or your family's interests. 4:135
Don't hate other people. Treat everyone fairly. 5:8
"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion."/"O people of the Book, do not be fanatical in your faith." 4:171
Be kind and forgiving toward others. 7:199
And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it. 8:61
"Do not evil in the earth."/Treat people fairly, respect their possessions, and avoid evil. 11:85
Good and evil are not the same. Repel evil with goodness. That way your enemies will become your friends. 41:34
Live peacefully with disbelievers. 43:88-89
Let each person believe (or disbelieve) whatever he or she wishes. 109:1, 6
Now watch the attempts to discredit this - from the same book the anti-Islamists quote from.
Though you and other Muslims can not deny your Holy Book commands death
Out of context and of the time it was written? Sure. Aspects that don't/shouldn't apply to today? Sure.
But that's not the point and the image you were trying to paint were you? Suffice to say I don't think you like it when quoting the Qur'an is responded to and nullified.
Then why is it not rewrote?