Not at all, just being practical. He will be a potential target in that community from now on.
Unlikely as I've already explained owing to the gun culture. Whether or not that culture is the right culture to have in the first place, the officer is less likely to be attacked or have his home vandalized as people know there is a high possibility that they will be taking a trip to the morgue for trying. But yes as you say nothing is perfect and there is always the possibility a gang of people would expertly plan something out and overpower him but that's really not likely as it would still be very dangerous for them.
Unlikely as I've already explained owing to the gun culture. Whether or not that culture is the right culture to have in the first place, the officer is less likely to be attacked or have his home vandalized as people know there is a high possibility that they will be taking a trip to the morgue for trying. But yes as you say nothing is perfect and there is always the possibility a gang of people would expertly plan something out and overpower him but that's really not likely as it would still be very dangerous for them.
Hmm, if what you say was truly the case, there'd be no crime there at all :kitty:
She only cooperated when she knew she was going to be arrested.
Encino might be a hot head but he instinctvely chose someone who 'probably' was breaking the law. Or probably going to break it. Granted he didn't know that at the time.
You don't know how intelligent Encinoo is or isn't. If he did a good job as a firefighter that's admirable.
She 'could have' been pissed off because she was pulled over doing something she wasn't legally allowed to do.
i know the conversation has moved on since this post, but give me a break with this sort of nonsense!
Sandra Bland co-operated with the trooper up until the point he suggested she put her cigarette out. She didn't refuse, she just questioned why she should have to do so while sitting in her own car. Encino escalated the situation into unnecessary violence thereafter.
'He "instinctively" chose someone who was "probably" breaking the law.'? You mean he saw a black person with out-of-state licence plates and decided they were easy prey. Why don't you just say so?
I have no idea what Encino's record is as a fireman and I have even less interest. I'm judging his intelligence on how he handled this traffic stop - that is without an ounce of common sense and with complete disregard for his oath of office (I.e. HIS obligation).
You know as well as I do that failure to signal a change of lane happens millions of times a day in the USA. You also know that Sandra Bland would not have changed lanes if she wasn't trying to do the officer a favour and get out of his way when his cruiser sped up behind her. Anyone with half a brain cell can see he was targeting her. It was a stunt more than enough to piss anyone off.
Did your involvement with civil rights end because you discovered you have an authoritarian streak a mile wide? You constantly stick up for the officer and berate Sandra Bland for not sticking to her 'obligations' while downplaying her rights. Even Encino's superior officers have stated he handled the situation completely unprofessionally and should never have arrested her in the first place. Argue the legality of it all you like, but ethically and morally, this woman's rights were violated. NO civilised society should put up with events like this where such a minor traffic infraction leads to weapons drawn, rough-house arrests, inappropriate charges and suspicious deaths. From the moment Sandra Bland fell into the clutches of the police she was treated with a fundamental lack of respect for her person and her welfare.
If people are going to end up in the morgue for vandalising property, that sounds like a pretty strong deterrent to me
I should have clarified I didn't mean the officer would kill them specifically for vandalizing his property. But a situation like that could easily lead to the officer killing the person in self defence. Maybe he confronts the person and goes to restrain them and they start putting up a fight, the officer kills them as he fears for his life. So again attacking a cop or his property is pretty risky even if he is unpopular.
I should have clarified I didn't mean the officer would kill them specifically for vandalizing his property. But a situation like that could easily lead to the officer killing the person in self defence. Maybe he confronts the person and goes to restrain them and they start putting up a fight, the officer kills them as he fears for his life. So again attacking a cop or his property is pretty risky even if he is unpopular.
Well....yes, that is certainly plausible. Equally, it could be someone lying in wait in a sniper position for him. He may never see his killer. Or, alone and off duty, he could just be overpowered by a group. Maybe he will be asleep in the middle of the night.
Anything is possible if a group of people are after you.
Sandra Bland co-operated with the trooper up until the point he suggested she put her cigarette out. She didn't refuse, she just questioned why she should have to do so while sitting in her own car. Encino escalated the situation into unnecessary violence thereafter.
<snipped for this point only>
He asked her to put out her cigarette, but when she asked why, he didn't give her an answer. That's clear from the conversation. As you say it just escalated from that moment on.
Well....yes, that is certainly plausible. Equally, it could be someone lying in wait in a sniper position for him. He may never see his killer. Or, alone and off duty, he could just be overpowered by a group. Maybe he will be asleep in the middle of the night.
Anything is possible if a group of people are after you.
Yes you are right that anything is possible but the more fantasy land suggestions of someone waiting in a "sniper position" don't really bear thinking about a lot. Because the odds of that happening are probably the same as him moving to a new location and promptly being struck by lightning and dying. With cops the possibility is always there of your work life interfering with your personal life, and many people won't like you and may want revenge for a perceived wrong but it's thankfully quite uncommon for people to be willing to throw away the rest of their life by murdering a cop. Although murdering a cop because he conducted a traffic stop may have the jury considering whether you'd be better suited to an asylum rather than actual jail.
Yes you are right that anything is possible but the more fantasy land suggestions of someone waiting in a "sniper position" don't really bear thinking about a lot. Because the odds of that happening are probably the same as him moving to a new location and promptly being struck by lightning and dying. With cops the possibility is always there of your work life interfering with your personal life, and many people won't like you and may want revenge for a perceived wrong but it's thankfully quite uncommon for people to be willing to throw away the rest of their life by murdering a cop. Although murdering a cop because he conducted a traffic stop may have the jury considering whether you'd be better suited to an asylum rather than actual jail.
Actually it's no more fantasy land than suggesting that somebody ends up in the morgue for vandalism, which is what you suggested earlier. Both are extreme positions, but equally possible.
My main point here, and it still stands, is that he is much more of a potential target in his current town, than he would be elsewhere, However you want to spin it, that will be an ongoing reality for him.
Actually it's no more fantasy land than suggesting that somebody ends up in the morgue for vandalism, which is what you suggested earlier. Both are extreme positions, but equally possible.
Well not quite. Someone training to become a decent sniper just so they can kill an officer who lives in the same area as them is less likely than an officer defending himself against someone vandalizing his house.
My main point here, and it still stands, is that he is much more of a potential target in his current town, than he would be elsewhere, However you want to spin it, that will be an ongoing reality for him.
If that's you're way of thinking then that is fine. He may not be popular in his home town and while plenty of people like to say what they'd like to do to him online, probably not many would in reality. Their gun culture means that even the smallest scuffle can potentially result in death for either party.
i know the conversation has moved on since this post, but give me a break with this sort of nonsense!
Sandra Bland co-operated with the trooper up until the point he suggested she put her cigarette out. She didn't refuse, she just questioned why she should have to do so while sitting in her own car. Encino escalated the situation into unnecessary violence thereafter.
'He "instinctively" chose someone who was "probably" breaking the law.'? You mean he saw a black person with out-of-state licence plates and decided they were easy prey. Why don't you just say so?
I have no idea what Encino's record is as a fireman and I have even less interest. I'm judging his intelligence on how he handled this traffic stop - that is without an ounce of common sense and with complete disregard for his oath of office (I.e. HIS obligation).
You know as well as I do that failure to signal a change of lane happens millions of times a day in the USA. You also know that Sandra Bland would not have changed lanes if she wasn't trying to do the officer a favour and get out of his way when his cruiser sped up behind her. Anyone with half a brain cell can see he was targeting her. It was a stunt more than enough to piss anyone off.
Did your involvement with civil rights end because you discovered you have an authoritarian streak a mile wide? You constantly stick up for the officer and berate Sandra Bland for not sticking to her 'obligations' while downplaying her rights. Even Encino's superior officers have stated he handled the situation completely unprofessionally and should never have arrested her in the first place. Argue the legality of it all you like, but ethically and morally, this woman's rights were violated. NO civilised society should put up with events like this where such a minor traffic infraction leads to weapons drawn, rough-house arrests, inappropriate charges and suspicious deaths. From the moment Sandra Bland fell into the clutches of the police she was treated with a fundamental lack of respect for her person and her welfare.
You are going over the same points that were talked about. I'll answer them again though.
You don't have any idea that he 'chose' Bland because she was black or conversely, she happened to be black. White persons don't talk to officers like that where I live. I pointed out where the same thing might have happened to me during a stop.
Officers frequently catch persons involved in other crimes, when making routine stops. Serial killers and criminals on the run are often found that way. So saying it was just a lane change may not be accurate.
Encinia was going to give her a warning, so if he chose her because she was black, you don't explain why he wasn't going to do anything to her until the situation escalated.
There's no evidence yet at least, that what he did was unlawful, so her legal rights weren't violated. He violated agency procedures for courtesy. I don't support his lack of courtesy. I don't support her behavior toward him either.
She violated Texas law of cooperate during a traffic stop, and possibly disorderly conduct with cursing out the officer.
Civil rights advanced society greatly, but it's not meant to be used as a way to avoid the law. A lot of people say 'I was profiled' instead of 'I was wrong.'
If you jump on the bandwagon of every situation, you could be helping people not take responsibility for their actions. Until the next thing they do.
Persons who criticized Encinia for being unprofessional said to reserve judgment until the facts are in.
If he murdered her or anyone murdered her and covered it up, that's different and we need to look at the evidence if it comes out.
The sheer volume of sickening racist comments on most of these articles is shocking and only confirm the level of racism which is still rife in parts of the US.
I agree and I find it absolutely chilling. I can't imagine what it must be like to live amongst on top of knowing that killings of unarmed men, women and children of your race by those who are supposed to protect them will, far more often than not, lead to the dead being demonised and the killers being exonerated (even exalted by some sections of society). I honestly can't comprehend how scary that must be and I find it amazing that there aren't more riots given the ongoing situation.
In this thread, while I strongly disagree with some of the posters (and one in particular who I have ceased to interact with because they come across as condescending, smug, sneering and self-congratulatory ^_^), still - thankfully - there is barely any hint of racism to be found. (Fascism maybe, but racism, not so much). ;-)
I agree and I find it absolutely chilling. I can't imagine what it must be like to live amongst on top of knowing that killings of unarmed men, women and children of your race by those who are supposed to protect them will, far more often than not, lead to the dead being demonised and the killers being exonerated (even exalted by some sections of society). I honestly can't comprehend how scary that must be and I find it amazing that there aren't more riots given the ongoing situation.
In this thread, while I strongly disagree with some of the posters (and one in particular who I have ceased to interact with because they come across as condescending, smug, sneering and self-congratulatory ^_^), still - thankfully - there is barely any hint of racism to be found. (Fascism maybe, but racism, not so much). ;-)
Where is the evidence that he killed her? Or are you talking about another situation and using it to bolster this one? People don't want her prior charges brought up, but they want to judge him based on what other officers do.
It would be uncivilized society if people started riots before the facts are in, as you seem to be suggesting.
We will by the way be living in a really scary society if the police in the US can't act to control crime, as in some places they already can't. That's the flip side of your chilling scenario. How about knowing you might be run off the road because of someone high on drugs because the police want to avoid confrontations at traffic stops?
You are going over the same points that were talked about. I'll answer them again though.
You don't have any idea that he 'chose' Bland because she was black or conversely, she happened to be black. White persons don't talk to officers like that where I live. I pointed out where the same thing might have happened to me during a stop.
Officers frequently catch persons involved in other crimes, when making routine stops. Serial killers and criminals on the run are often found that way. So saying it was just a lane change may not be accurate.
I was going to let this go, but I just couldn't. I won't bother actually arguing with you, I'll just highlight the bits I found most nonsensical and leave it there.
dare I ask for your views on the Sam Dubose murder?
You are going over the same points that were talked about. I'll answer them again though.
You don't have any idea that he 'chose' Bland because she was black or conversely, she happened to be black.
And you don't have any idea that he chose her because he "intuitively" knew she was about to commit a crime. Such nonsense!
White persons don't talk to officers like that where I live. I pointed out where the same thing might have happened to me during a stop.
Talk like what? Do you mean with a tone of voice which isn't suitably deferential? She spoke perfectly respectably to Encinia until he pointed a weapon at her head. Go figure! And how do you know how the white people where you live talk to officers? Are you omnipresent at each and every interaction in your area? ;-)
Officers frequently catch persons involved in other crimes, when making routine stops. Serial killers and criminals on the run are often found that way. So saying it was just a lane change may not be accurate.
It was just a lane change. Sandra Bland was neither a serial killer nor a criminal on the run, so please stop with the false equivalencies.
Encinia was going to give her a warning, so if he chose her because she was black, you don't explain why he wasn't going to do anything to her until the situation escalated.
How do you know he wasn't? HE was the one who chose to escalate it when she was just waiting to sign the paperwork.
There's no evidence yet at least, that what he did was unlawful, so her legal rights weren't violated. He violated agency procedures for courtesy. I don't support his lack of courtesy. I don't support her behavior toward him either.
She violated Texas law of cooperate during a traffic stop, and possibly disorderly conduct with cursing out the officer.
So you keep saying ad nauseum. As I have said (also ad nauseum!) I place greater onus on the conduct of the person paid to uphold the law in these situations. Pointing a weapon at someone's head and threatening them with violence for no good reason is FAR MORE "disorderly" than swearing. Police officers are supposed to be able to cope with irritated, ansty and belligerent people, they are NOT supposed to antagonise them further and then arrest them for reacting to the provocation. If you think that's acceptable behaviour for law enforcement officers, well I fear you're a lost cause...
Civil rights advanced society greatly, but it's not meant to be used as a way to avoid the law. A lot of people say 'I was profiled' instead of 'I was wrong.'
If you jump on the bandwagon of every situation, you could be helping people not take responsibility for their actions. Until the next thing they do. Helping people accept their responsibility is as valuable as civil rights work.
Given that the numbers of citizens killed by police far outstrips the number of police killed by citizens, then I believe maybe the police need to be ones taking more responsibility for their own actions and saying 'I was wrong'.
Persons who criticized Encinia for being unprofessional said to reserve judgment until the facts are in.
If he murdered her or anyone murdered her and covered it up, that's different and we need to look at the evidence if it comes out.
"IF" being the operative word. I strongly suspect that dereliction of duty regarding her medication and her mental state were largely to blame, but this whole situation stinks to high heaven and one can only hope that it prompts a major reform of police practices both in Texas and further afield.
Where is the evidence that he killed her? Or are you talking about another situation and using it to bolster this one? People don't want her prior charges brought up, but they want to judge him based on what other officers do.
It would be uncivilized society if people started riots before the facts are in, as you seem to be suggesting.
We will by the way be living in a really scary society if the police in the US can't act to control crime, as in some places they already can't. That's the flip side of your chilling scenario. How about knowing you might be run off the road because of someone high on drugs because the police want to avoid confrontations at traffic stops?
I didn't suggest any such thing. >:( Please re-read my post properly.
You might also then realise that I make no suggestion whatsoever that Sandra Bland was killed by the trooper who arrested her. I doubt he even saw her again after she was booked into the jail. I was talking about other killings where officers have been caught on camera using lethal force (Tamir Rice, John Crawford, Eric Garner, Walter Scott etc).
You don't have any idea that he 'chose' Bland because she was black or conversely, she happened to be black. White persons don't talk to officers like that where I live. I pointed out where the same thing might have happened to me during a stop.
How do you know - out of interest?
Do you mean they don't put intelligent questions to the officer concerned?
I was going to let this go, but I just couldn't. I won't bother actually arguing with you, I'll just highlight the bits I found most nonsensical and leave it there.
dare I ask for your views on the Sam Dubose murder?
Nope white people don't. I was pulled over twice in my life and shouted at and a flashlight shone in the car for my every move, until I was cleared and the officers turned nice.
As I said, each case on its own merits. Justice is playing out in the other case, isn't it.
We will by the way be living in a really scary society if the police in the US can't act to control crime, as in some places they already can't. That's the flip side of your chilling scenario. How about knowing you might be run off the road because of someone high on drugs because the police want to avoid confrontations at traffic stops?
I had to address this point separately because it's just so... out there!
Where have I (or anyone else on this thread) suggested that the police be prevented from doing their jobs? What we're suggesting is that they carry them out properly and with due diligence. As I've previously stated I believe the whole police culture needs to be reformed from top to bottom. Carrying on as things are will only lead to more and more citizens being afraid and distrustful of the police which will in turn lead to an escalation of paranoia, over-reaction and violence. I believe it's time to put the brakes on and seek a different way because, if the U.S. doesn't do it now, it WILL become a police state. It can be done if there is enough collective resolve to make the necessary changes!
P.S. Can you imagine how this scenario might have played out if it took place on the streets of a U.S. city rather than in London?
Nope white people don't. I was pulled over twice in my life and shouted at and a flashlight shone in the car for my every move, until I was cleared and the officers turned nice.
As I said, each case on its own merits. Justice is playing out in the other case, isn't it.
Sorry, call me thick if you like, but I'm not getting how your personal experiences speak for all white people.
I had to address this point separately because it's just so... out there!
Where have I (or anyone else on this thread) suggested that the police be prevented from doing their jobs? What we're suggesting is that they carry them out properly and with due diligence. As I've previously stated I believe the whole police culture needs to be reformed from top to bottom. Carrying on as things are will only lead to more and more citizens being afraid and distrustful of the police which will in turn lead to an escalation of paranoia, over-reaction and violence. I believe it's time to put the brakes on and seek a different way because, if the U.S. doesn't do it now, it WILL become a police state. It can be done if there is enough collective resolve to make the necessary changes!
P.S. Can you imagine how this scenario might have played out if it took place on the streets of a U.S. city rather than in London?
EDIT: Apologies if this is straying off-topic a little bit.
For that to happen society has to change to adapt as well.
With every police stop or incident they attend there is a fair chance the person may have a gun on them. For that reason even police are going to be paranoid going into a stop.
Again, I for one was brought up to respect authority, speak politely and follow instructions. I know if I didn't like what one of them did I would file a complaint and take it from there.
What people need to stop doing is treating the street as a court room, because it isn't one.
Oh and in reference to your link, the guy would have either been shot or tasered instantly.
And you don't have any idea that he chose her because he "intuitively" knew she was about to commit a crime. Such nonsense!
Talk like what? Do you mean with a tone of voice which isn't suitably deferential? She spoke perfectly respectably to Encinia until he pointed a weapon at her head. Go figure! And how do you know how the white people where you live talk to officers? Are you omnipresent at each and every interaction in your area? ;-)
It was just a lane change. Sandra Bland was neither a serial killer nor a criminal on the run, so please stop with the false equivalencies.
How do you know he wasn't? HE was the one who chose to escalate it when she was just waiting to sign the paperwork.
So you keep saying ad nauseum. As I have said (also ad nauseum!) I place greater onus on the conduct of the person paid to uphold the law in these situations. Pointing a weapon at someone's head and threatening them with violence for no good reason is FAR MORE "disorderly" than swearing. Police officers are supposed to be able to cope with irritated, ansty and belligerent people, they are NOT supposed to antagonise them further and then arrest them for reacting to the provocation. If you think that's acceptable behaviour for law enforcement officers, well I fear you're a lost cause...
Given that the numbers of citizens killed by police far outstrips the number of police killed by citizens, then I believe maybe the police need to be ones taking more responsibility for their own actions and saying 'I was wrong'.
"IF" being the operative word. I strongly suspect that dereliction of duty regarding her medication and her mental state were largely to blame, but this whole situation stinks to high heaven and one can only hope that it prompts a major reform of police practices both in Texas and further afield.
I told you why though. People who break big laws and people who break little ones are often the same persons. That's how they are catching criminals. There is a certain disregard for rules and regs across the board. Or inattentive driving gives away drug users. So it's not nonsense if he intuitively chose her inattentive driving, not her.
To repeat, the officer is not (unfortunately) a mental health professional or a customer service rep. First priority is stop crime. That's why most people cooperate.
You can just as easily say he reacted to her provocation. I don't look at her the same as someone who was never arrested before and innocently walks into a situation.
We don't know that she died of lack of medication. Even so, that's different than saying she was murdered. Again, some people do get beaten up or murdered and if that comes out I'll believe it. It's not usually small time arrest though.
It's not unusual where I am to know of people who are threatened with being tasered or are tasered in DWI stops, for resisting orders. There are people I know of who will fight police and try to hurt them, or they are high and they don't even recall what they did. I'm not clear that Encinia at one point was sure what he was dealing with.
Again you throw out the number of citizens killed by police. How many were killed while committing a crime. Haven't you left something out?
I told you why though. People who break big laws and people who break little ones are often the same persons. That's how they are catching criminals. There is a certain disregard for rules and regs across the board. Or inattentive driving gives away drug users. So it's not nonsense if he intuitively chose her inattentive driving, not her.
To repeat, the officer is not (unfortunately) a mental health professional or a customer service rep. First priority is stop crime. That's why most people cooperate.
You can just as easily say he reacted to her provocation. I don't look at her the same as someone who was never arrested before and innocently walks into a situation.
We don't know that she died of lack of medication. Even so, that's different than saying she was murdered. Again, some people do get beaten up or murdered and if that comes out I'll believe it. It's not usually small time arrest though.
It's not unusual where I am to know of people who are threatened with being tasered or are tasered in DWI stops, for resisting orders. There are people I know of who will fight police and try to hurt them, or they are high and they don't even recall what they did. I'm not sure that Encinia at one point was sure what he was dealing with.
Again you throw out the number of citizens killed by police. How many were killed while committing a crime. Haven't you left something out?
The bottom paragraph is key here, I've looked back and a large proportion of those killed were carrying a weapon at the time.
America ignores that though. That's the blame culture for you.
Sorry, call me thick if you like, but I'm not getting how your personal experiences speak for all white people.
I didn't say they speak for all white people, but if I include everyone I know and people I speak to, I don't know anyone who argues with the police. It includes all the persons I talk to who have arrest records, many hundreds, who i think would agree, to a one, don't argue with the police or certainly not in a hostile manner.
Comments
Unlikely as I've already explained owing to the gun culture. Whether or not that culture is the right culture to have in the first place, the officer is less likely to be attacked or have his home vandalized as people know there is a high possibility that they will be taking a trip to the morgue for trying. But yes as you say nothing is perfect and there is always the possibility a gang of people would expertly plan something out and overpower him but that's really not likely as it would still be very dangerous for them.
Hmm, if what you say was truly the case, there'd be no crime there at all :kitty:
Incorrect, I only said that it was less likely not impossible.
If people are going to end up in the morgue for vandalising property, that sounds like a pretty strong deterrent to me
Sandra Bland co-operated with the trooper up until the point he suggested she put her cigarette out. She didn't refuse, she just questioned why she should have to do so while sitting in her own car. Encino escalated the situation into unnecessary violence thereafter.
'He "instinctively" chose someone who was "probably" breaking the law.'? You mean he saw a black person with out-of-state licence plates and decided they were easy prey. Why don't you just say so?
I have no idea what Encino's record is as a fireman and I have even less interest. I'm judging his intelligence on how he handled this traffic stop - that is without an ounce of common sense and with complete disregard for his oath of office (I.e. HIS obligation).
You know as well as I do that failure to signal a change of lane happens millions of times a day in the USA. You also know that Sandra Bland would not have changed lanes if she wasn't trying to do the officer a favour and get out of his way when his cruiser sped up behind her. Anyone with half a brain cell can see he was targeting her. It was a stunt more than enough to piss anyone off.
Did your involvement with civil rights end because you discovered you have an authoritarian streak a mile wide? You constantly stick up for the officer and berate Sandra Bland for not sticking to her 'obligations' while downplaying her rights. Even Encino's superior officers have stated he handled the situation completely unprofessionally and should never have arrested her in the first place. Argue the legality of it all you like, but ethically and morally, this woman's rights were violated. NO civilised society should put up with events like this where such a minor traffic infraction leads to weapons drawn, rough-house arrests, inappropriate charges and suspicious deaths. From the moment Sandra Bland fell into the clutches of the police she was treated with a fundamental lack of respect for her person and her welfare.
I should have clarified I didn't mean the officer would kill them specifically for vandalizing his property. But a situation like that could easily lead to the officer killing the person in self defence. Maybe he confronts the person and goes to restrain them and they start putting up a fight, the officer kills them as he fears for his life. So again attacking a cop or his property is pretty risky even if he is unpopular.
Well....yes, that is certainly plausible. Equally, it could be someone lying in wait in a sniper position for him. He may never see his killer. Or, alone and off duty, he could just be overpowered by a group. Maybe he will be asleep in the middle of the night.
Anything is possible if a group of people are after you.
<snipped for this point only>
He asked her to put out her cigarette, but when she asked why, he didn't give her an answer. That's clear from the conversation. As you say it just escalated from that moment on.
Yes you are right that anything is possible but the more fantasy land suggestions of someone waiting in a "sniper position" don't really bear thinking about a lot. Because the odds of that happening are probably the same as him moving to a new location and promptly being struck by lightning and dying. With cops the possibility is always there of your work life interfering with your personal life, and many people won't like you and may want revenge for a perceived wrong but it's thankfully quite uncommon for people to be willing to throw away the rest of their life by murdering a cop. Although murdering a cop because he conducted a traffic stop may have the jury considering whether you'd be better suited to an asylum rather than actual jail.
Actually it's no more fantasy land than suggesting that somebody ends up in the morgue for vandalism, which is what you suggested earlier. Both are extreme positions, but equally possible.
My main point here, and it still stands, is that he is much more of a potential target in his current town, than he would be elsewhere, However you want to spin it, that will be an ongoing reality for him.
Well not quite. Someone training to become a decent sniper just so they can kill an officer who lives in the same area as them is less likely than an officer defending himself against someone vandalizing his house.
If that's you're way of thinking then that is fine. He may not be popular in his home town and while plenty of people like to say what they'd like to do to him online, probably not many would in reality. Their gun culture means that even the smallest scuffle can potentially result in death for either party.
You are going over the same points that were talked about. I'll answer them again though.
You don't have any idea that he 'chose' Bland because she was black or conversely, she happened to be black. White persons don't talk to officers like that where I live. I pointed out where the same thing might have happened to me during a stop.
Officers frequently catch persons involved in other crimes, when making routine stops. Serial killers and criminals on the run are often found that way. So saying it was just a lane change may not be accurate.
Encinia was going to give her a warning, so if he chose her because she was black, you don't explain why he wasn't going to do anything to her until the situation escalated.
There's no evidence yet at least, that what he did was unlawful, so her legal rights weren't violated. He violated agency procedures for courtesy. I don't support his lack of courtesy. I don't support her behavior toward him either.
She violated Texas law of cooperate during a traffic stop, and possibly disorderly conduct with cursing out the officer.
Civil rights advanced society greatly, but it's not meant to be used as a way to avoid the law. A lot of people say 'I was profiled' instead of 'I was wrong.'
If you jump on the bandwagon of every situation, you could be helping people not take responsibility for their actions. Until the next thing they do.
Persons who criticized Encinia for being unprofessional said to reserve judgment until the facts are in.
If he murdered her or anyone murdered her and covered it up, that's different and we need to look at the evidence if it comes out.
In this thread, while I strongly disagree with some of the posters (and one in particular who I have ceased to interact with because they come across as condescending, smug, sneering and self-congratulatory ^_^), still - thankfully - there is barely any hint of racism to be found. (Fascism maybe, but racism, not so much). ;-)
Where is the evidence that he killed her? Or are you talking about another situation and using it to bolster this one? People don't want her prior charges brought up, but they want to judge him based on what other officers do.
It would be uncivilized society if people started riots before the facts are in, as you seem to be suggesting.
We will by the way be living in a really scary society if the police in the US can't act to control crime, as in some places they already can't. That's the flip side of your chilling scenario. How about knowing you might be run off the road because of someone high on drugs because the police want to avoid confrontations at traffic stops?
dare I ask for your views on the Sam Dubose murder?
Talk like what? Do you mean with a tone of voice which isn't suitably deferential? She spoke perfectly respectably to Encinia until he pointed a weapon at her head. Go figure! And how do you know how the white people where you live talk to officers? Are you omnipresent at each and every interaction in your area? ;-)
It was just a lane change. Sandra Bland was neither a serial killer nor a criminal on the run, so please stop with the false equivalencies.
How do you know he wasn't? HE was the one who chose to escalate it when she was just waiting to sign the paperwork.
So you keep saying ad nauseum. As I have said (also ad nauseum!) I place greater onus on the conduct of the person paid to uphold the law in these situations. Pointing a weapon at someone's head and threatening them with violence for no good reason is FAR MORE "disorderly" than swearing. Police officers are supposed to be able to cope with irritated, ansty and belligerent people, they are NOT supposed to antagonise them further and then arrest them for reacting to the provocation. If you think that's acceptable behaviour for law enforcement officers, well I fear you're a lost cause...
Given that the numbers of citizens killed by police far outstrips the number of police killed by citizens, then I believe maybe the police need to be ones taking more responsibility for their own actions and saying 'I was wrong'.
"IF" being the operative word. I strongly suspect that dereliction of duty regarding her medication and her mental state were largely to blame, but this whole situation stinks to high heaven and one can only hope that it prompts a major reform of police practices both in Texas and further afield.
You might also then realise that I make no suggestion whatsoever that Sandra Bland was killed by the trooper who arrested her. I doubt he even saw her again after she was booked into the jail. I was talking about other killings where officers have been caught on camera using lethal force (Tamir Rice, John Crawford, Eric Garner, Walter Scott etc).
How do you know - out of interest?
Do you mean they don't put intelligent questions to the officer concerned?
Nope white people don't. I was pulled over twice in my life and shouted at and a flashlight shone in the car for my every move, until I was cleared and the officers turned nice.
As I said, each case on its own merits. Justice is playing out in the other case, isn't it.
Where have I (or anyone else on this thread) suggested that the police be prevented from doing their jobs? What we're suggesting is that they carry them out properly and with due diligence. As I've previously stated I believe the whole police culture needs to be reformed from top to bottom. Carrying on as things are will only lead to more and more citizens being afraid and distrustful of the police which will in turn lead to an escalation of paranoia, over-reaction and violence. I believe it's time to put the brakes on and seek a different way because, if the U.S. doesn't do it now, it WILL become a police state. It can be done if there is enough collective resolve to make the necessary changes!
P.S. Can you imagine how this scenario might have played out if it took place on the streets of a U.S. city rather than in London?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw
EDIT: Apologies if this is straying off-topic a little bit.
Sorry, call me thick if you like, but I'm not getting how your personal experiences speak for all white people.
For that to happen society has to change to adapt as well.
With every police stop or incident they attend there is a fair chance the person may have a gun on them. For that reason even police are going to be paranoid going into a stop.
Again, I for one was brought up to respect authority, speak politely and follow instructions. I know if I didn't like what one of them did I would file a complaint and take it from there.
What people need to stop doing is treating the street as a court room, because it isn't one.
Oh and in reference to your link, the guy would have either been shot or tasered instantly.
I told you why though. People who break big laws and people who break little ones are often the same persons. That's how they are catching criminals. There is a certain disregard for rules and regs across the board. Or inattentive driving gives away drug users. So it's not nonsense if he intuitively chose her inattentive driving, not her.
To repeat, the officer is not (unfortunately) a mental health professional or a customer service rep. First priority is stop crime. That's why most people cooperate.
You can just as easily say he reacted to her provocation. I don't look at her the same as someone who was never arrested before and innocently walks into a situation.
We don't know that she died of lack of medication. Even so, that's different than saying she was murdered. Again, some people do get beaten up or murdered and if that comes out I'll believe it. It's not usually small time arrest though.
It's not unusual where I am to know of people who are threatened with being tasered or are tasered in DWI stops, for resisting orders. There are people I know of who will fight police and try to hurt them, or they are high and they don't even recall what they did. I'm not clear that Encinia at one point was sure what he was dealing with.
Again you throw out the number of citizens killed by police. How many were killed while committing a crime. Haven't you left something out?
The bottom paragraph is key here, I've looked back and a large proportion of those killed were carrying a weapon at the time.
America ignores that though. That's the blame culture for you.
I didn't say they speak for all white people, but if I include everyone I know and people I speak to, I don't know anyone who argues with the police. It includes all the persons I talk to who have arrest records, many hundreds, who i think would agree, to a one, don't argue with the police or certainly not in a hostile manner.