It's been a long while since I posted here, but I've been lurking... Anyhow, thinking about the question of why the current series leaving me feeling less than satisfied: I think it is simply because the 'big finish' at the end of the series has become all-absorbing, with stories seemingly being written simply to provide a tool/mechanism for the big story at the end (like the half-hearted and wasted 'Let's Kill Hitler', just to introduce the mechanism for the 'fake' Doctor at the end. It feels like the other stories are just fillers waiting for that end one to come about ).
There's nothing complicated at all about the plots if you look at them. Like an Agatha Christie, it's all about covering the story with as much fluff or fog as possible until the big reveal at the end. If you spot the technique and remove the fluff, then it's fairly straightforward. I can't think of a single story this year that I found challenging.
All in all, I think each recent series is losing out by trying to make the end a big surprise. If the purpose of the show is to surprise then once you know what happened, what's left? You are not going to be surprised watching it again, are you?
What else? I think that in previous years the writers made an attempt to create a difference between the episodes and use different theatrical styles (for example, Midnight; when I did drama I remember the old lesson about containing a story in one set with no more than eight characters in the 'core'). At the moment, with a very few exceptions, most of the episodes have the same feel to them, but this is probably because they are being governed by the need to service the all-embracing story arc.
Final bit: it's no detriment nor insult to Moffat as a writer to say that some episodes just don't work. Almost all really good writers need an editor. On some threads here, people are referring to his 'excellent' Sherlock Holmes; he has a partner for that project and to be honest, seems to show a spark and an enthusiasm for it that I haven't seen in DW for a while. .
So, will I go on watching? Why not? I even watched during the camped up Master/McCoy era! But right now I don't feel any urge to watch them more than once; my DVD gifts of the last two series are still shrinkwrapped on the shelf (unlike previous years) and I'll wait for a time when I do find it really enjoyable again.
Oh, and Post #70, Astrid stayed dead in that Christmas episode, as did everyone except two crew, one passenger (who was vile) and the Doctor, so I think that's a fairly high body count for a 'nicey nicey' Christmas story.
I've said my bit, so I'll probably go away now for another year!
I think all this thread proves (again) is that some people preferred RTD and Tennant and some prefer Moffat and Matt. Some just enjoy it regardless. Which we know anyway. It's more 'I don't enjoy it as much any more so it's not much good' than anything else - much like I felt during those dreary 'Specials' when it was more a duty to watch than looking forward to it. I've never been able to make myself re-watch them but series 5 and 6 I can go back to anytime because they're like a breath of fresh air. For me, anyway.
It really is just a matter of opinion, as Who has never been more high-profile since 2005 and we all know that every few years it changes cast and direction, and someone won't like the changes. We'd have had the same reactions if there had been internet forums in the 60s, 70s and 80s.
At least towards the end of the thread, this wasn't about RTD or DT versus Moffat or Matt. I think the discussion about story arcs is an interesting one..
Sometimes on this forum it feels as soon as someone says anything remotely negative about the new team, that people automatically assume that you must have liked RTD or David Tennant more. That's not the case!
I guess Story Arcs create an expectation a bit like movies with a twist ending. If you go in knowing there is a twist, you enjoy it less.
I quickly became concerned that each RTD series was trying to be bigger in scope than the previous one. When you are facing the end of the universe every 13 or so episodes there seems little peril in a smaller story about, say, a haunted house for example.
I've always though that the Doctor needs to be a small character in a very, very, very big Universe where the peril is about solving a problem, saving some people and getting away.
Happy for there to be obscure clues along the way that lead to a sudden random big story that could be at the end of the series, at Christmas or in the middle or not at all this year.
So there is no downward spiral as such. We just have high expectations of a show that already has a great many episodes and will struggle to surprise us.
In many ways I was expecting the last two seasons to shake the snow globe and allow for a reset of expectations. Maybe that has happened, I shall wait and see.
Those Doctor Who fans mostly started off as kids. What gives us the right to demand it be written for us as adults when it it's predominantly a child-friendly family show? You'd rather it was written for only the adults now, when it was written for children when you became a fan? How selfish of you!
Considering ive been a fan for 30 years I deserve to get what I want to see afterall now im paying for the BBC license. They need to stop writing down to kids and more what they should be writing. STFU! I dont wish it was written for adults only like Torchwood just it shouldnt be written down for kids and more for the family. It had a decent run from 63-89 shame come 2005 they made it shit. Do I really have to put up with the sodding companion saving the day every week? That never happenned in the classic series but these days people are obsessed with sexism so much!
*Anyhow, thinking about the question of why the current series leaving me feeling less than satisfied: I think it is simply because the 'big finish' at the end of the series has become all-absorbing, with stories seemingly being written simply to provide a tool/mechanism for the big story at the end (like the half-hearted and wasted 'Let's Kill Hitler', just to introduce the mechanism for the 'fake' Doctor at the end. It feels like the other stories are just fillers waiting for that end one to come about ).
At the moment, with a very few exceptions, most of the episodes have the same feel to them, but this is probably because they are being governed by the need to service the all-embracing story
Pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.
There was a discussion in another thread about JNT playing to the 'hardcore fans', and for some reason it made me think of Moffat and the 'Timey wimey' tag that is now associated, and wrongly so in my opinion, with him much to the detriment of his episodes in series 6.
The 'Timey wimey' thing was a throw away line to do away with clunky dull sci-fi mumbo jumbo about a load of old other mumbo jumbo and it was in Moffat's up until then, only story that could be described as Timey Wimey, none of his other stories were. 'Timey wimey' was a phrase, a brilliant phrase at that, but thats was all it was, yet it seems since that line and 'Blink' Moffat has been labeled the 'Timey Wimey' writer and I feel that maybe Moffat himself has played up to his new tag that the fandom he meets and greets have bestowed upon him when for me he was never a 'Timey Wimey' writer but a brilliant character writer that puts his characters into frankly wonderful individual episodes, one of those episodes happened to be Blink, but for series 6 the Mumbo jumbo (the timey wimey gag) actually becomes real and takes priority over everything else in his stories, the characters don't speak real words but spout timey wimey exposition.
Take The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, for example, and how everything fits, it all belongs together, its a real world made more real by his writing, now compare that with his episodes in series 6, it's about the arcs and nothing else, the environments are irrelevant, they are just backdrops, afterthoughts on which to hang the far more important arc, the Nevada Desert was pretty but it was forced, The Doctor could have been shot at the back of Asda in Hull for it was worth in the end.:D
The Silence in The Library, is played out in a setting integral and interwoven into the story whereas with The Impossible Astronought is payed out in a setting that required a spacesuit, thats it. All of the secondary characters in TIA/DOTM are irrelevant, they are not integral to the plot, as with all of Moffats plots in series 6 it is **** packet bare. The Doctor/shot/space suit/Silence, all squeezed into contrived rush jobs devoid of any actually episodic originality, because of course spacesuit = NASA, NASA = America...oohh Area 51... tedious sci-fan staple diet guff. For me it all felt forced and contrived, the arc came first, but to then do it in such such a slap dash cut and paste way made it all he more tedious and shallow, hell even move a few episodes around at the expense of characterisation, who cares? certainy not the show runner, it was all a bit 'Sod it, that will do, now where are those Sherlock scripts, that's my new love, I'll just chuck a bit more money series 6 way, at least will look good'
So back to my original point Steven Moffat for me was never and is not a Timey Wimey writer, he wrote one timey wimey story but because that story happened to be Blink it has somewhat distorted and overshadowed what made Moffat's episodes great in the first place.
I believed the rain falling down the window of the hospital room in Blink I didn't believe The Doctor was in the heart of Nazi Germany in Let's Kill Hitler, it was if he had walked in to a cheap comedy sketch on CrackerJack......CRACKERJACK. Moffats episodes in series 6 were arc exposition played out on gimmicky, irrelevant throw away tedious unoriginal sci fi backdrops.
I really hope with series 7 Moffat getting back to basics again, stops believing his Internet fandom press, stops thinking that because Blink was the success it was that, and rightly so, that it is what he does best, it isn't, in fact in terms of Timey Wimey Blink was a one off, but dear God an entire series arc and all of Moffats episodes dealing with Timey wimey arcs was nails down a chalkboard for me.
It would be like RTD after Turn Left going 'Right!! Turn Left was popular, from now on I'm a Timey Wimey writer and stuff everything else that actually made my episodes great'. Yes RTD had his clunkers but not everyone in a series atthe overall expense of that series.
Put it this way, Moffats episodes in series 6 were everything I hoped Doctor Who would not be when the show returned in 2005, thankfully, along with RTD show running and scripts, Moffat's episodes in series 1-4 were everything I had hoped Doctor Who would be when it was relaunched.
'Timey Wimey' was a throw away gag in one episode, God knows how it become the plot of series 6.
Do I really have to put up with the sodding companion saving the day every week? That never happenned in the classic series but these days people are obsessed with sexism so much!
Yes, and the companion being sidelined is one of the things that made the classic series terminally boring. Along with the stereotyped and obvious villians, pantomime acting, and predictable plots.
And yet I love it still. However, the revived series gives us far more, dramatically, to get our teeth into.
Considering ive been a fan for 30 years I deserve to get what I want to see afterall now im paying for the BBC license. They need to stop writing down to kids and more what they should be writing. STFU! I dont wish it was written for adults only like Torchwood just it shouldnt be written down for kids and more for the family. It had a decent run from 63-89 shame come 2005 they made it shit. Do I really have to put up with the sodding companion saving the day every week? That never happenned in the classic series but these days people are obsessed with sexism so much!
So Barbara didn't save the day in Inside The Spaceship?
So Vicki didn't lead a revolution in The Space Museum which stopped all four regulars ending up as exhibits in cases?
So Adric didn't play a part in stopping the freighter destroying the Earth in Earthshock?
And The Brigadier didn't inadvertently save the day in Mawdryn Undead?
I think we can all agree The Doctor saved the day in the majority of stories but to say it never happened.....I think not!
Considering ive been a fan for 30 years I deserve to get what I want to see afterall now im paying for the BBC license. They need to stop writing down to kids and more what they should be writing. STFU! I dont wish it was written for adults only like Torchwood just it shouldnt be written down for kids and more for the family. It had a decent run from 63-89 shame come 2005 they made it shit. Do I really have to put up with the sodding companion saving the day every week? That never happenned in the classic series but these days people are obsessed with sexism so much!
No, you don't 'deserve' the show be written for you. Just because you pay the licence fee. I also pay my licence fee, and would be sorely disappointed if Doctor Who departed from what it is.
Would you have become a fan 30 years ago had that been the case then? I doubt it. In essence, what you're saying is that you feel the show owes you something for investing those years in it. Well, it doesn't. And that attitude it's both ugly and selfish.
Im getting increasingly sick of all these nicey nicey christmas episodes. If soaps are going to have nasty characters killing someone at christmas time why cant we have something similar in Doctor Who on xmas day! Why does everyone have to always be saved?
Each year you ll have fatalities happen only for some idiot whos producing the series to do some reset thing so basically the deaths never happenned.
Id rather have JNT anyday than these 2 idiots who run things these days. Bout time we had producers writing stories for doctor who fans and not kids!
What I don't understand is how you think they are writing the show for children based on Christmas episodes. Did you see The Doctor's Wife? Or The Girl Who Waited? Or The God Complex?
This is going to start off off-topic, but I am replying to comments made on this thread.
I am absolutely amazed to read positive things on here about that latest Sherlock epsisode (and that as someone who adored the first episode Moffat wrote). For me it was all - and only - 'clever' stuff throughout, all for the purpose of just the pay-offs at the end.
The same was true of all the arc-heavy episodes of series 6 for me. Series 5 worked in that sense, I thought overall it was magical.
The thing is, Sherlock didn't make sense - not a jot - if you spent time analysing it afterwards, and nor did the series 6 arc. None.
I am hoping and praying that Moffat does pull it back for series 7, because it's not just myself (a great long-term fan) that he has made almost not care anymore or have much hope for the future - it's people like my Dad, a 'casual' viewer who nevertheless saw the RTD-era eps as must-sees. He just doesn't care anymore, and mostly shrugs his shoulders at the end and then frowns. Interestingly, he enjoyed most RTD-era stuff that I wasn't so keen on, whereas he hasn't liked much Moffat stuff, even the few episodes of series 6 I really liked.
If Moffat doesn't rein it in it will be (for me) two series he has 'killed'. Alright, I am most probably being overly-dramatic, but that is honestly how I feel, and first have done since AGMGtW. At least with Sherlock it's his own creation he's destroying...
I think you're in the minority. Nearly everyone loved the Sherlock episode. Not saying there's anything wrong with that though.
I sort of agree that It didn't make sense; I'm still not sure I fully understand it... ...but it impressed me nevertheless and I ended up loving it.
No, you don't 'deserve' the show be written for you. Just because you pay the licence fee. I also pay my licence fee, and would be sorely disappointed if Doctor Who departed from what it is.
Would you have become a fan 30 years ago had that been the case then? I doubt it. In essence, what you're saying is that you feel the show owes you something for investing those years in it. Well, it doesn't. And that attitude it's both ugly and selfish.
Excellent reply. Couldn't have put it better myself.
The 'Timey wimey' thing was a throw away line to do away with clunky dull sci-fi mumbo jumbo about a load of old other mumbo jumbo and it was in Moffat's up until then, only story that could be described as Timey Wimey, none of his other stories were.
I notice you don't mention The Girl in the Fireplace which came before Blink.
Before Blink Moffat had written Two stories for the TV show one was not Timey Wimey (Empty Child) and one was (Fireplace).
I notice you don't mention The Girl in the Fireplace which came before Blink.
Before Blink Moffat had written Two stories for the TV show one was not Timey Wimey (Empty Child) and one was (Fireplace).
To be honest Cowin I didn't mention TGITF because I would have been here all day with the ins and outs.
Was the GITF really that Timey Wimey, personally I don't think it was, it was a basic going back in time/forward in time story, a wonderful story no argument from me there, but it was pretty standard time line stuff all wrapped up in one episode, it was to me no more Timey Wimey or 'complex' than The Doctor sending Rose back to her own timeline on Earth whilst he fought the Daleks in Parting Of The Ways, or the episode Fathers Day and so on and so on. So why is Moffat the Timey Wimey guy? For me he never was.
Even so the settings in TGITF were integral and interwoven to the plot, the story evolved around its settings. For me Moffats episodes in series 6 just did not do that, the arc could have been plonked on to any setting.
Just as Branson's trains chew up the tracks they run on ...... RTD and The Moff have "rescued" Dr Who be wrecking it, that's the nub of the problem.
Old who was well-constructed Drama. Nu Who is cgi-fests, with a string of quick "knowing" one-line gags ...... but hardly any plot!
This is just like the `Doctor Who dumbed down, yet too complicated to follow` criticisms that keep doing the rounds! It shows that not everyone can agree... How can something be `arc-heavy`*, yet have no real plot? You need the plotting to be arc-heavy...
*Not my criticism, I quite like the arc of series 6. It`s just that as many people seem to be criticising both opposite angles. Surely they can`t both be right?As with the dumbing down versus too complicated argument. They simply cannot both be right!
Just one more thing - they haven`t ruined it, what they`ve done is change it (which is an inherent part of Doctor Who itself, so I often wonder why people who have watched the show so long can`t seem to get around that!). They`ve updated the old style of storytelling, for one that is viable in the modern era. If Doctor Who had come back in the same style as it used before, then it wouldn`t have been viable for a 13 part series, which would mean it wouldn`t have been commercially viable either.
That is probably my favourite as well, I loved the little touches of that arc such as when Martha, facing certain death in the escape pod in 42, calls her mum, then during the conversation the camera pans to show a 'spook' taping and tracking the call. :eek:
Its moments like that when arcs work for me, when they are not part of the main story but extremely well handled when placed into an episode without overshadowing it, really liked the like Bad Wolf one as well, first new series and an unexpected little teaser arc by just using two words, well placed and executed. Top stuff.
I prefer an arc in Who to be hinted at and not to beaten about my face with it like a wet fish.
This is just like the `Doctor Who dumbed down, yet too complicated to follow` criticisms that keep doing the rounds! It shows that not everyone can agree... How can something be `arc-heavy`*, yet have no real plot? You need the plotting to be arc-heavy...
*Not my criticism, I quite like the arc of series 6. It`s just that as many people seem to be criticising both opposite angles. Surely they can`t both be right?As with the dumbing down versus too complicated argument. They simply cannot both be right!
Just one more thing - they haven`t ruined it, what they`ve done is change it (which is an inherent part of Doctor Who itself, so I often wonder why people who have watched the show so long can`t seem to get around that!). They`ve updated the old style of storytelling, for one that is viable in the modern era. If Doctor Who had come back in the same style as it used before, then it wouldn`t have been viable for a 13 part series, which would mean it wouldn`t have been commercially viable either.
Yes i agree about the need for change.. I've found the nu-who invigorating, exciting, and 'cool'. It's great to be able to discuss it with people who never previously had any interest in the show..
If i want old style who i have it there on the shelf whenever i want a trip down memory lane. `````Sometimes i find i prefer it. then i dive back intpo nu-who and prefer that.. It's great that it's on, it's new, it's fresh.
But just as the old series had its ups and downs so does this.
I adore moffats writing and i want it to work for me and series 5 did, but series 6 didn't. Not complicated. Not dumbed down. Just not what i wanted. Cluttered really, a wealth of ideas shoehorned in. Sometimes less is more. And yet within series 6 were some of the best - ie the incredible doctors wife. Best i've ever seen. Impossible astronaut and day of the moon i rewatched dozens of times. Incredibly well set up, mystery - and absolutely used the american setting to make a diference. Every penny well spent. No, i understand how peoples dislike of the series as a whole can seem contradictory.
For me, i just wanted something else to come from the superb setup, that's all. But we can't all get what we want. And having been close to turning my back after the xmas special i'm starting to waver already.
I just love who too much. I wish i didn't care so much as to sometimes be disappointed by it but ho hum, such is life..
So, according to live +7 figures, the Christmas special had 12.88m viewers and was the most-watched BBC show from that day. How's that downward spiral looking?
So, according to live +7 figures, the Christmas special had 12.88m viewers and was the most-watched BBC show from that day. How's that downward spiral looking?
If by a downward spiral you mean from The Wedding of River Song to The Doctor, The Witch and The Wardrobe then yeah that's a massive downward spiral. But I can't say I found series 6 has been more childish when it's involved kidnapping children, Amy killing someone in cold blood, the Doctor dying, the list goes on. Yes there were a couple of childish moments and/or episodes but it definitely feels less childish now than it did before IMO. It only feels childish because we have a more animated and eager/child-like Doctor, that doesn't make the show childish as a result. P.S this is about the millionth different thread about the show being on a slump, do we really need to keep starting new ones?
I would have to disagree with you. The whole River Song storyline was a massive downward turn for me and I'm glad we have the answer, so now (Maybe? Pretty please?) it can be over and done with. I have not been able to buy into this Doctor and I've been hanging on for Amy Pond. I think Matt Smith is the second worst Doctor (after Colin Baker) that there has ever been. I've heard that they're going to write Amy Pond out of the next series, so I don't know how long I'll be watching. I expect that I will continue, but it's likely I'll just download, after the event, rather than try to catch it when it first airs.
I would have to disagree with you. The whole River Song storyline was a massive downward turn for me and I'm glad we have the answer, so now (Maybe? Pretty please?) it can be over and done with. I have not been able to buy into this Doctor and I've been hanging on for Amy Pond. I think Matt Smith is the second worst Doctor (after Colin Baker) that there has ever been. I've heard that they're going to write Amy Pond out of the next series, so I don't know how long I'll be watching. I expect that I will continue, but it's likely I'll just download, after the event, rather than try to catch it when it first airs.
You might be in luck on the River front but I can't Matt going anywhere soon tbh, he's a highly regarded and popular Doctor. I'm also gutted Amy's going but I'll continue to watch as I've never given up on Dr Who when one of my fave characters has left before and I don't intend to start now. (That and I adore MS's Doctor, the best of the New Who for me). I hope you don't lose the faith and that the new companion can reignite your vigor for the show.
Considering ive been a fan for 30 years I deserve to get what I want to see afterall now im paying for the BBC license. They need to stop writing down to kids and more what they should be writing. STFU! I dont wish it was written for adults only like Torchwood just it shouldnt be written down for kids and more for the family. It had a decent run from 63-89 shame come 2005 they made it shit. Do I really have to put up with the sodding companion saving the day every week? That never happenned in the classic series but these days people are obsessed with sexism so much!
Never? I remember Sarah Jane saving the day on numerous occasions. Sometimes, she was the one small enough to fit through the ductwork, sometimes she had the expertise to set off the explosives with a rifle shot. I also seem to recall a time when Ace blew up the invading spacecraft, Susan bringing the anti-radiation medicine that no one even knew was needed, Jamie fought off the Krotons, Zoe killed a super-computer with a question.
Sorry, but your statement is way off base. The companions have always been important to the stories, otherwise, there would have been no companions and the BBC would have saved the money that they paid these people.
You might be in luck on the River front but I can't Matt going anywhere soon tbh, he's a highly regarded and popular Doctor. I'm also gutted Amy's going but I'll continue to watch as I've never given up on Dr Who when one of my fave characters has left before and I don't intend to start now. (That and I adore MS's Doctor, the best of the New Who for me). I hope you don't lose the faith and that the new companion can reignite your vigor for the show.
I appreciate your enthusiasm. I think it's really going to take someone special to replace Amy Pond. I really don't share your accessment of Matt Smith, but we can agree to disagree. I know that there are still people out there who consider Colin Baker to be THE Doctor, even though I think he is the worst thing that ever happened to the show and directly led to it's downfall in the 80's.
As I said, it will take someone really special to have me sitting on the edge of my seat. If you have a strong Doctor and an OK companion then you have a good show. If you have a good Doctor and a good companion then you have a good show. But if you have a so-so Doctor and a so-so companion then you have nothing.
When the 5th Doctor lost Nyssa and was left with Turlough (who wanted to kill him) and Teagan (who didn't even want to be there) things started going downhill. When the 6th Doctor turned out to be a coward and blamed everything on Peri, things really picked up speed on that downhill slide. When he abandoned Peri and took up with Mel the Screacher, I can only say that it was a good thing for him that it was part of a series-long story arc or he would be known as the Doctor Who Didn't last a year.
It's quite possible that, if the BBC had been willing, the show might have recovered from Colin Baker's incompetence, but it didn't happen. The 7th Doctor, after the first couple of weeks, proved to have a depth to him that was worth exploring. Ace showed that she was so central to the status of the world, and maybe to the universe, that she should be close to hand. We didn't see that again until Amy Pond.
Yes, Rose was hot; get it out of your system. She was hot for anything that was male and could reasonably be called 'human'. In other words, Rose was a tramp. Yes, Martha was dedicated, but she got over it, once she saw that the Doctor was not going to forget his whoile life and pledge himself to be her puppet. Yes, uhh, well, Donna believed that she was the center of the universe, but we all know that she really wasn't. She was just a loud-mouthed *&%^#$@ who somehow got to travel with the Doctor, when any one of us would have been a much better choice.
Then, we met Amy Pond, the girl who had the crack in her wall which was eating the universe. Once the Doctor had set her straight and let Rory in on the major Doctor-Companion attraction thing, I never saw a need for Rory again. The Doctor and Amy could have had a thousand adventures without Rory and he would not have known that there was anything worth knowing. The thought that he was young and strong didn't mean anything because the Doctor was also young and strong, at least, physically.
For me, it is now Amy and the Doctor. They are really going to have to impress me, and River Song is just not going to do it. In the first place, she is almost old enough to be his mother. If she is supposed to be the replacement for a young and gorgeous Amy, then I'll archive it and count it as compatible with the less worthwhile, but still significant episodes.
I appreciate your enthusiasm. I think it's really going to take someone special to replace Amy Pond. I really don't share your accessment of Matt Smith, but we can agree to disagree. I know that there are still people out there who consider Colin Baker to be THE Doctor, even though I think he is the worst thing that ever happened to the show and directly led to it's downfall in the 80's.
As I said, it will take someone really special to have me sitting on the edge of my seat. If you have a strong Doctor and an OK companion then you have a good show. If you have a good Doctor and a good companion then you have a good show. But if you have a so-so Doctor and a so-so companion then you have nothing.
When the 5th Doctor lost Nyssa and was left with Turlough (who wanted to kill him) and Teagan (who didn't even want to be there) things started going downhill. When the 6th Doctor turned out to be a coward and blamed everything on Peri, things really picked up speed on that downhill slide. When he abandoned Peri and took up with Mel the Screacher, I can only say that it was a good thing for him that it was part of a series-long story arc or he would be known as the Doctor Who Didn't last a year.
It's quite possible that, if the BBC had been willing, the show might have recovered from Colin Baker's incompetence, but it didn't happen. The 7th Doctor, after the first couple of weeks, proved to have a depth to him that was worth exploring. Ace showed that she was so central to the status of the world, and maybe to the universe, that she should be close to hand. We didn't see that again until Amy Pond.
Yes, Rose was hot; get it out of your system. She was hot for anything that was male and could reasonably be called 'human'. In other words, Rose was a tramp. Yes, Martha was dedicated, but she got over it, once she saw that the Doctor was not going to forget his whoile life and pledge himself to be her puppet. Yes, uhh, well, Donna believed that she was the center of the universe, but we all know that she really wasn't. She was just a loud-mouthed *&%^#$@ who somehow got to travel with the Doctor, when any one of us would have been a much better choice.
Then, we met Amy Pond, the girl who had the crack in her wall which was eating the universe. Once the Doctor had set her straight and let Rory in on the major Doctor-Companion attraction thing, I never saw a need for Rory again. The Doctor and Amy could have had a thousand adventures without Rory and he would not have known that there was anything worth knowing. The thought that he was young and strong didn't mean anything because the Doctor was also young and strong, at least, physically.
For me, it is now Amy and the Doctor. They are really going to have to impress me, and River Song is just not going to do it. In the first place, she is almost old enough to be his mother. If she is supposed to be the replacement for a young and gorgeous Amy, then I'll archive it and count it as compatible with the less worthwhile, but still significant episodes.
I can't really judge your comments on Doctors 5-7 as i haven't seen the classic series but I do think Amy was without a doubt the best companion since the reboot and her relationship with 11 is nigh on perfect, they bring out the best in each other. I do think that the scenes between them are the best bits of the current show and I'll be very disappointed to see her go, because I doubt anyone can create the sort of relationship that Matt and Karen developed so quickly. I have nothing against River and indeed there is some brilliant stuff between her and 11 but no companion has for me, matched Amy and her relationship with the Doc. Rory has been at times good, at times a bit needless and I will admit there have been times I think he would've been better leaving Amy and the Doctor to it.
Comments
Welcome, why don't you keep posting:)
At least towards the end of the thread, this wasn't about RTD or DT versus Moffat or Matt
Sometimes on this forum it feels as soon as someone says anything remotely negative about the new team, that people automatically assume that you must have liked RTD or David Tennant more. That's not the case!
I quickly became concerned that each RTD series was trying to be bigger in scope than the previous one. When you are facing the end of the universe every 13 or so episodes there seems little peril in a smaller story about, say, a haunted house for example.
I've always though that the Doctor needs to be a small character in a very, very, very big Universe where the peril is about solving a problem, saving some people and getting away.
Happy for there to be obscure clues along the way that lead to a sudden random big story that could be at the end of the series, at Christmas or in the middle or not at all this year.
So there is no downward spiral as such. We just have high expectations of a show that already has a great many episodes and will struggle to surprise us.
In many ways I was expecting the last two seasons to shake the snow globe and allow for a reset of expectations. Maybe that has happened, I shall wait and see.
Considering ive been a fan for 30 years I deserve to get what I want to see afterall now im paying for the BBC license. They need to stop writing down to kids and more what they should be writing. STFU! I dont wish it was written for adults only like Torchwood just it shouldnt be written down for kids and more for the family. It had a decent run from 63-89 shame come 2005 they made it shit. Do I really have to put up with the sodding companion saving the day every week? That never happenned in the classic series but these days people are obsessed with sexism so much!
Pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.
There was a discussion in another thread about JNT playing to the 'hardcore fans', and for some reason it made me think of Moffat and the 'Timey wimey' tag that is now associated, and wrongly so in my opinion, with him much to the detriment of his episodes in series 6.
The 'Timey wimey' thing was a throw away line to do away with clunky dull sci-fi mumbo jumbo about a load of old other mumbo jumbo and it was in Moffat's up until then, only story that could be described as Timey Wimey, none of his other stories were. 'Timey wimey' was a phrase, a brilliant phrase at that, but thats was all it was, yet it seems since that line and 'Blink' Moffat has been labeled the 'Timey Wimey' writer and I feel that maybe Moffat himself has played up to his new tag that the fandom he meets and greets have bestowed upon him when for me he was never a 'Timey Wimey' writer but a brilliant character writer that puts his characters into frankly wonderful individual episodes, one of those episodes happened to be Blink, but for series 6 the Mumbo jumbo (the timey wimey gag) actually becomes real and takes priority over everything else in his stories, the characters don't speak real words but spout timey wimey exposition.
Take The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, for example, and how everything fits, it all belongs together, its a real world made more real by his writing, now compare that with his episodes in series 6, it's about the arcs and nothing else, the environments are irrelevant, they are just backdrops, afterthoughts on which to hang the far more important arc, the Nevada Desert was pretty but it was forced, The Doctor could have been shot at the back of Asda in Hull for it was worth in the end.:D
The Silence in The Library, is played out in a setting integral and interwoven into the story whereas with The Impossible Astronought is payed out in a setting that required a spacesuit, thats it. All of the secondary characters in TIA/DOTM are irrelevant, they are not integral to the plot, as with all of Moffats plots in series 6 it is **** packet bare. The Doctor/shot/space suit/Silence, all squeezed into contrived rush jobs devoid of any actually episodic originality, because of course spacesuit = NASA, NASA = America...oohh Area 51... tedious sci-fan staple diet guff. For me it all felt forced and contrived, the arc came first, but to then do it in such such a slap dash cut and paste way made it all he more tedious and shallow, hell even move a few episodes around at the expense of characterisation, who cares? certainy not the show runner, it was all a bit 'Sod it, that will do, now where are those Sherlock scripts, that's my new love, I'll just chuck a bit more money series 6 way, at least will look good'
So back to my original point Steven Moffat for me was never and is not a Timey Wimey writer, he wrote one timey wimey story but because that story happened to be Blink it has somewhat distorted and overshadowed what made Moffat's episodes great in the first place.
I believed the rain falling down the window of the hospital room in Blink I didn't believe The Doctor was in the heart of Nazi Germany in Let's Kill Hitler, it was if he had walked in to a cheap comedy sketch on CrackerJack......CRACKERJACK. Moffats episodes in series 6 were arc exposition played out on gimmicky, irrelevant throw away tedious unoriginal sci fi backdrops.
I really hope with series 7 Moffat getting back to basics again, stops believing his Internet fandom press, stops thinking that because Blink was the success it was that, and rightly so, that it is what he does best, it isn't, in fact in terms of Timey Wimey Blink was a one off, but dear God an entire series arc and all of Moffats episodes dealing with Timey wimey arcs was nails down a chalkboard for me.
It would be like RTD after Turn Left going 'Right!! Turn Left was popular, from now on I'm a Timey Wimey writer and stuff everything else that actually made my episodes great'. Yes RTD had his clunkers but not everyone in a series atthe overall expense of that series.
Put it this way, Moffats episodes in series 6 were everything I hoped Doctor Who would not be when the show returned in 2005, thankfully, along with RTD show running and scripts, Moffat's episodes in series 1-4 were everything I had hoped Doctor Who would be when it was relaunched.
'Timey Wimey' was a throw away gag in one episode, God knows how it become the plot of series 6.
Yes, and the companion being sidelined is one of the things that made the classic series terminally boring. Along with the stereotyped and obvious villians, pantomime acting, and predictable plots.
And yet I love it still. However, the revived series gives us far more, dramatically, to get our teeth into.
So Barbara didn't save the day in Inside The Spaceship?
So Vicki didn't lead a revolution in The Space Museum which stopped all four regulars ending up as exhibits in cases?
So Adric didn't play a part in stopping the freighter destroying the Earth in Earthshock?
And The Brigadier didn't inadvertently save the day in Mawdryn Undead?
I think we can all agree The Doctor saved the day in the majority of stories but to say it never happened.....I think not!
No, you don't 'deserve' the show be written for you. Just because you pay the licence fee. I also pay my licence fee, and would be sorely disappointed if Doctor Who departed from what it is.
Would you have become a fan 30 years ago had that been the case then? I doubt it. In essence, what you're saying is that you feel the show owes you something for investing those years in it. Well, it doesn't. And that attitude it's both ugly and selfish.
What I don't understand is how you think they are writing the show for children based on Christmas episodes. Did you see The Doctor's Wife? Or The Girl Who Waited? Or The God Complex?
I think you're in the minority. Nearly everyone loved the Sherlock episode. Not saying there's anything wrong with that though.
I sort of agree that It didn't make sense; I'm still not sure I fully understand it...
Excellent reply. Couldn't have put it better myself.
I notice you don't mention The Girl in the Fireplace which came before Blink.
Before Blink Moffat had written Two stories for the TV show one was not Timey Wimey (Empty Child) and one was (Fireplace).
To be honest Cowin I didn't mention TGITF because I would have been here all day with the ins and outs.
Was the GITF really that Timey Wimey, personally I don't think it was, it was a basic going back in time/forward in time story, a wonderful story no argument from me there, but it was pretty standard time line stuff all wrapped up in one episode, it was to me no more Timey Wimey or 'complex' than The Doctor sending Rose back to her own timeline on Earth whilst he fought the Daleks in Parting Of The Ways, or the episode Fathers Day and so on and so on. So why is Moffat the Timey Wimey guy? For me he never was.
Even so the settings in TGITF were integral and interwoven to the plot, the story evolved around its settings. For me Moffats episodes in series 6 just did not do that, the arc could have been plonked on to any setting.
Old who was well-constructed Drama. Nu Who is cgi-fests, with a string of quick "knowing" one-line gags ...... but hardly any plot!
This is just like the `Doctor Who dumbed down, yet too complicated to follow` criticisms that keep doing the rounds! It shows that not everyone can agree... How can something be `arc-heavy`*, yet have no real plot? You need the plotting to be arc-heavy...
*Not my criticism, I quite like the arc of series 6. It`s just that as many people seem to be criticising both opposite angles. Surely they can`t both be right?As with the dumbing down versus too complicated argument. They simply cannot both be right!
Just one more thing - they haven`t ruined it, what they`ve done is change it (which is an inherent part of Doctor Who itself, so I often wonder why people who have watched the show so long can`t seem to get around that!). They`ve updated the old style of storytelling, for one that is viable in the modern era. If Doctor Who had come back in the same style as it used before, then it wouldn`t have been viable for a 13 part series, which would mean it wouldn`t have been commercially viable either.
^This^
Yes i agree about the need for change.. I've found the nu-who invigorating, exciting, and 'cool'. It's great to be able to discuss it with people who never previously had any interest in the show..
If i want old style who i have it there on the shelf whenever i want a trip down memory lane. `````Sometimes i find i prefer it. then i dive back intpo nu-who and prefer that.. It's great that it's on, it's new, it's fresh.
But just as the old series had its ups and downs so does this.
I adore moffats writing and i want it to work for me and series 5 did, but series 6 didn't. Not complicated. Not dumbed down. Just not what i wanted. Cluttered really, a wealth of ideas shoehorned in. Sometimes less is more. And yet within series 6 were some of the best - ie the incredible doctors wife. Best i've ever seen. Impossible astronaut and day of the moon i rewatched dozens of times. Incredibly well set up, mystery - and absolutely used the american setting to make a diference. Every penny well spent. No, i understand how peoples dislike of the series as a whole can seem contradictory.
For me, i just wanted something else to come from the superb setup, that's all. But we can't all get what we want. And having been close to turning my back after the xmas special i'm starting to waver already.
I just love who too much. I wish i didn't care so much as to sometimes be disappointed by it but ho hum, such is life..
That beats VotD doesn't it?
Not quite I don't think, I remember seeing on here VotD had nearly 14 million.
At least its not like today where they do the saving every sodding day. Im sick of rose this rose that amy this amy that.
I would have to disagree with you. The whole River Song storyline was a massive downward turn for me and I'm glad we have the answer, so now (Maybe? Pretty please?) it can be over and done with. I have not been able to buy into this Doctor and I've been hanging on for Amy Pond. I think Matt Smith is the second worst Doctor (after Colin Baker) that there has ever been. I've heard that they're going to write Amy Pond out of the next series, so I don't know how long I'll be watching. I expect that I will continue, but it's likely I'll just download, after the event, rather than try to catch it when it first airs.
You might be in luck on the River front but I can't Matt going anywhere soon tbh, he's a highly regarded and popular Doctor. I'm also gutted Amy's going but I'll continue to watch as I've never given up on Dr Who when one of my fave characters has left before and I don't intend to start now. (That and I adore MS's Doctor, the best of the New Who for me). I hope you don't lose the faith and that the new companion can reignite your vigor for the show.
Never? I remember Sarah Jane saving the day on numerous occasions. Sometimes, she was the one small enough to fit through the ductwork, sometimes she had the expertise to set off the explosives with a rifle shot. I also seem to recall a time when Ace blew up the invading spacecraft, Susan bringing the anti-radiation medicine that no one even knew was needed, Jamie fought off the Krotons, Zoe killed a super-computer with a question.
Sorry, but your statement is way off base. The companions have always been important to the stories, otherwise, there would have been no companions and the BBC would have saved the money that they paid these people.
I appreciate your enthusiasm. I think it's really going to take someone special to replace Amy Pond. I really don't share your accessment of Matt Smith, but we can agree to disagree. I know that there are still people out there who consider Colin Baker to be THE Doctor, even though I think he is the worst thing that ever happened to the show and directly led to it's downfall in the 80's.
As I said, it will take someone really special to have me sitting on the edge of my seat. If you have a strong Doctor and an OK companion then you have a good show. If you have a good Doctor and a good companion then you have a good show. But if you have a so-so Doctor and a so-so companion then you have nothing.
When the 5th Doctor lost Nyssa and was left with Turlough (who wanted to kill him) and Teagan (who didn't even want to be there) things started going downhill. When the 6th Doctor turned out to be a coward and blamed everything on Peri, things really picked up speed on that downhill slide. When he abandoned Peri and took up with Mel the Screacher, I can only say that it was a good thing for him that it was part of a series-long story arc or he would be known as the Doctor Who Didn't last a year.
It's quite possible that, if the BBC had been willing, the show might have recovered from Colin Baker's incompetence, but it didn't happen. The 7th Doctor, after the first couple of weeks, proved to have a depth to him that was worth exploring. Ace showed that she was so central to the status of the world, and maybe to the universe, that she should be close to hand. We didn't see that again until Amy Pond.
Yes, Rose was hot; get it out of your system. She was hot for anything that was male and could reasonably be called 'human'. In other words, Rose was a tramp. Yes, Martha was dedicated, but she got over it, once she saw that the Doctor was not going to forget his whoile life and pledge himself to be her puppet. Yes, uhh, well, Donna believed that she was the center of the universe, but we all know that she really wasn't. She was just a loud-mouthed *&%^#$@ who somehow got to travel with the Doctor, when any one of us would have been a much better choice.
Then, we met Amy Pond, the girl who had the crack in her wall which was eating the universe. Once the Doctor had set her straight and let Rory in on the major Doctor-Companion attraction thing, I never saw a need for Rory again. The Doctor and Amy could have had a thousand adventures without Rory and he would not have known that there was anything worth knowing. The thought that he was young and strong didn't mean anything because the Doctor was also young and strong, at least, physically.
For me, it is now Amy and the Doctor. They are really going to have to impress me, and River Song is just not going to do it. In the first place, she is almost old enough to be his mother. If she is supposed to be the replacement for a young and gorgeous Amy, then I'll archive it and count it as compatible with the less worthwhile, but still significant episodes.
I can't really judge your comments on Doctors 5-7 as i haven't seen the classic series