Aarghh Moniker. This scattergun approach to posting just makes the effort required to respond wholly unfeasible.
Sorry - just bringing factors to your attention (Merryll Vorster style lol) before you exonerate OP completely due to Mike's house search being 100% definitely time-consuming and fully completed before he dialed a number. ;-)
The impossible breathing after 3:16 should be a concern, as should wanting to move her downstairs by 3:19 then claiming it was Netcare that told him to.
Dr. Stipp's impression was she was very much not alive (cornea already glazed, clenched jaw, no pulse).
When OP was describing Stipp's appearance, which he claims coincides to the last moments of Reeva's life, he sounded sad, with his trembly voice, but most of his words were describing alleged failings of Dr. Stipp. For such an upset man he certainly paid a lot of attention to Dr. Stipp's failings and felt we should know about them too. Doesn't than concern you a little?
Are you seriously putting forward an argument that shooting someone dead would seem less embarrassing than a shouty row?
Benjamini was not suggesting that whatsoever. B merely stated that by that stage, OP was at a point of no return, therefore took the option of pre-meditated murder to silence her, (fearing the consequences), and concocted a ridiculous story to attempt to save his ass.
I find the differing reasoning regarding coincidences quite interesting in this trial. The idea that Mrs.Stipp had a full night's sleep ahead of her and just happened to awake seconds before the gun was fired is in my view a far greater coincidence than the possibility of a woman speaking in a loud voice in the area.
Is there only me thats wondered whether that was Dr Stipps's 'domestic servant' (whom we know was on the phone) :D
Another day another version from Prof Derman on Thursday 3 July he said he specifically wanted to know from Pistorious what he meant by 'I ran' and asked Pistorius to demonstrate. Prof Derman described and demonstrated how Pistorius said he 'ran'.
But the following Monday Derman told the court what he demonstrated on Thursday was Pistorius walking down the passageway not running. You can see from whom Pistorius learnt to give evidence.
What does a judge decide in this sort of case?
No seriously, she is not on her own, she has the two assessors also, all will work together. They also have the two Advocates closing arguments which should clarify things for them. Then there will be various previous cases that can be referred to which will give guidance as to what previous Judges have said and done.
Its a huge mess, most of it theatre, but the Judge is very experienced as are the assessors.
Is there only me thats wondered whether that was Dr Stipps's 'domestic servant' (whom we know was on the phone) :D
She would clearly have come forward if it had been her knowing that the Stipps were testifying. She wouldn't be arguing so loud as they have 3 children.
Also stipps house is 77m to the North of OP's. Whereas Van der Merwe's is 100m to the South-West.
Aerial photographs show there are a few houses is could be in an arc perhaps but certainly not the Stipps!
We'll have to agree to disagree. I think Dr Stipp is the only reasonably reliable witness for the prosecution. He said he felt sure that the sounds that woke him were shots, and he immediately began telephoning to report said shots. Mike and his wife seem reasonably reliable, and Mike was telephoning at around the same time that Dr Stipp. His wife had apparently been woken by the shots too; registering the last one of them.
Still, Nel said that he would reconcile the discrepancies in his witness's accounts later, so perhaps he will.
That's not correct.
Dr Stipp indeed said he felt sure the bangs that woke him up were gunshots. Then they heard a woman screaming. However they did not immediately call security. They were out on the balcony for a few minutes trying to figure out where the screams were coming from.
Dr Stipp went inside and dialled either an incorrect number or couldn't get through. He was dressing and calling at the same time.
He then tried another number and couldn't get through. He then heard another 3 bangs. He then tried security again - either the same number or a new one - and this time got through.
Given times of Mike & Dr Stipps calls to security, they were clearly after the second set of bangs.
It's just pointing out they heard no further bangs after the one that woke them. On OP's version, if they woke to a gunshot bang, how did Mike's wife not hear the cricket bat sounds. Therefore, on OP's version, it is more likely Mike's wife woke up on the last cricket bat sound. therefore it is not surprising they did not hear the female.
Ah, I'm with you now.
still not believing the second noises were the bat though.
-the photos of blood spurt on the wall outside the bedroom are not hair-swipes.
-johnson and burger would not have heard cricket bat bangs
- stipps were fully awake at this point and would have seen him batting the door and would not have confused the sounds of gunshots.
- it's an obvious lie that the door was locked with the key on the floor. he would not have been able, with socked prostheses on tiles, to lean in and pick up the key.
also, if you think that he shot her earlier, do you really think he would have wasted time barging and then going for his cricket bat to get in? he'd have just shot the lock off.
Sorry - just bringing factors to your attention (Merryll Vorster style lol) before you exonerate OP completely due to Mike's house search being 100% definitely time-consuming and fully completed before he dialed a number. ;-)
The impossible breathing after 3:16 should be a concern, as should wanting to move her downstairs by 3:19 then claiming it was Netcare that told him to.
Dr. Stipp's impression was she was very much not alive (cornea already glazed, clenched jaw, no pulse).
When OP was describing Stipp's appearance, which he claims coincides to the last moments of Reeva's life, he sounded sad, with his trembly voice, but most of his words were describing alleged failings of Dr. Stipp. For such an upset man he certainly paid a lot of attention to Dr. Stipp's failings and felt we should know about them too. Doesn't than concern you a little?
I appreciate the attempt at brevity but my comments and the discussion in which they were made, was purely about the phone calls, which, in my opinion, form the basis for the court's eventual fact finding.
Benjamini was not suggesting that whatsoever. B merely stated that by that stage, OP was at a point of no return, therefore took the option of pre-meditated murder to silence her, (fearing the consequences), and concocted a ridiculous story to attempt to save his ass.
Righty ho; premeditated murder is a whole lot less messy and inconvenient than a blazing row. Gotcha.
He's blasted four bullets through the door, and he can't see anyone anywhere else in the bathroom. It seems that the bathroom area is now safe. He wants to go to the bedroom. He doesn't know if there is any danger in the bedroom area.
I'm talking about his version of events btw, not saying whether its true or not. But if it were true, it would all be perfectly logical. There might be other aspects one can take issue with, but I don't see the problem with this part myself.
But the bathroom was empty before firing his gun, after blasting the door he still believed intruders on the ladder were a threat. As I stated in his mind he was "100% sure an intruder was in the toilet" that Reeva was in the bedroom.
From the first noise he details the ladders, the window with no bars, the locked bedroom door etc.....there's no evidence of him attempting to make sense of the events leading to the shooting....there's no 'I don't understand how she was in the toilet when I knew she was in bed."
She would clearly have come forward if it had been her knowing that the Stipps were testifying. She wouldn't be arguing so loud as they have 3 children.
Also stipps house is 77m to the North of OP's. Whereas Van der Merwe's is 100m to the South-West.
Aerial photographs show there are a few houses is could be in an arc perhaps but certainly not the Stipps!
We'll have to agree to disagree. I think Dr Stipp is the only reasonably reliable witness for the prosecution. He said he felt sure that the sounds that woke him were shots, and he immediately began telephoning to report said shots.
Mike and his wife seem reasonably reliable, and Mike was telephoning at around the same time that Dr Stipp. His wife had apparently been woken by the shots too; registering the last one of them.
Still, Nel said that he would reconcile the discrepancies in his witness's accounts later, so perhaps he will.
Nel's pretty canny. I think he calculated that even if the witnesses made errors that the pressure could be used to good effect to make OP reveal what he heard: Or lie to try and cover what he heard - as he certainly appears to have done - with the magazine rack - and with saying he was screaming his head off after being 'startled' and while blasted the intruder to pieces [Something else Mike and his wife missed btw].
Nel's language changed after the exam: He began describing the screams themselves as 'a controversial aspect of the case'. I'm unconvinced he will make it the mainstay of his case. That will be ballistics + Pistorius' credibility + indications they were awake (lights on duvet etc fans being a lie and so forth gastric contents) + state of relationship being poor.
He created the space for his witnesses to be in error on some details but nevertheless honest already.
Both he and Roux can fiddle around pedantically with the uncertainties but it won't be good enough for the judge to decide fully the order of events IMO.
We'll see anyway how much he makes of timelines, in due course...
Dr Stipp indeed said he felt sure the bangs that woke him up were gunshots. Then they heard a woman screaming. However they did not immediately call security. They were out on the balcony for a few minutes trying to figure out where the screams were coming from.
Dr Stipp went inside and dialled either an incorrect number or couldn't get through. He was dressing and calling at the same time.
He then tried another number and couldn't get through. He then heard another 3 bangs. He then tried security again - either the same number or a new one - and this time got through.
Given times of Mike & Dr Stipps calls to security, they were clearly after the second set of bangs.
'Almost' immediately then, for those being pedantic and missing the wider point.
Annett - she was fluish & is clearly outraged by the events - I can't blame her as she corrected it, but it remains the case she saw a man - then didn't - and I don't believe the time line starts as early as 3:02 on a 3-4 minute fast clock.
It's not just Mrs Stipp, Dr Stipp also corroborates that timeline.
3:02 means the first shots were 2.58-2.59. Which fits with Burger waking up 'Just after 3am' (NB Juror 13 quotes this incorrectly), and Merwe waking up 'some time after 3'.
The latter witnesses all hear the screaming but the didn't hear the shots that caused it. It may be that the shots woke them up, or it may be the screams alone.
I don't think that the fact that Mrs Stipp decided that the impression of a man at OP's was a suggestion of her husband's rather than a concrete memory - tells you anything other than her integrity as a witness. And who knows it may be that she did see a man at the time, but then couldn't remember if she definitely had or not, and erred on the side of caution.
I have to say it remains puzzling however that people awake before a "number of bangs" heard a loud female - either screaming or arguing - and those awake after did not.
Not really. Merwe heard the loud female voice arguing over an hour earlier. Burger/Johnson and Stipp heard female screams intermingled either with male screams or a male shouting help 3 times, depending on the version.
Especially as "Help help help" is in the wrong place. And no one else heard the "female" version of that.
I agree with you. I think they could well be in the wrong place unless OP called 3 help cries twice and the Stipps didn't make out the words the first time.
'Almost' immediately then, for those being pedantic and missing the wider point.
Not even 'almost immediately'. There's a gap of around 15 mins between reporting having heard the first set of bangs, and getting through to security after the second set.
But the bathroom was empty before firing his gun, after blasting the door he still believed intruders on the ladder were a threat. As I stated in his mind he was "100% sure an intruder was in the toilet" that Reeva was in the bedroom.
From the first noise he details the ladders, the window with no bars, the locked bedroom door etc.....there's no evidence of him attempting to make sense of the events leading to the shooting....there's no 'I don't understand how she was in the toilet when I knew she was in bed."
1. Unless I missed it, I don't think he tried to say that his thinking was terribly clear.
2. Agreed, he doesn't seem to have admitted that it was a ludicrous thing to do.
It's not just Mrs Stipp, Dr Stipp also corroborates that timeline. I don't think that the fact that Mrs Stipp decided that the impression of a man at OP's was a suggestion of her husband's rather than a concrete memory - tells you anything other than her integrity as a witness. And who knows it may be that she did see a man at the time, but then couldn't remember if she definitely had or not, and erred on the side of caution.
BiB: Not integrity. Reliability. Given it's middle of night, stressful, fluish, and furthermore - understandably - outraged. ;-)
But the bathroom was empty before firing his gun, after blasting the door he still believed intruders on the ladder were a threat. As I stated in his mind he was "100% sure an intruder was in the toilet" that Reeva was in the bedroom.
From the first noise he details the ladders, the window with no bars, the locked bedroom door etc.....there's no evidence of him attempting to make sense of the events leading to the shooting....there's no 'I don't understand how she was in the toilet when I knew she was in bed."
Apart from, I won't shoot at the shower door, as a warning shot, the bullet may ricochet and hurt me.
Not even 'almost immediately'. There's a gap of around 15 mins between reporting having heard the first set of bangs, and getting through to security after the second set.
Not on Dr Stipps's account. You're thinking of Mrs Stipp.
BiB: It's not a huge problem - that was never the argument - it was saying three households heard it after gunshots - and also OP says that is when he called it - only Burger/Johnson have it timed before - no one else does - their evidence is therefore not corroborated - and will probably be attributed as an error.
I agree with you there.
In any event there is definitely no prospect to use that timing as evidence of premeditation. The consensus on 4/5 households is it was after gunshots and only in a male voice: On this point, OP is supported by the externally available evidence in the main.
Personally I never saw the 3 helps as evidence of premeditation either way.
Just something about the Burger/Johnson evidence i don't like, all in all. Maybe their lack of phoning the police when the security number was defunct. That doesn't fit properly with the perception of mortal danger IMO
I think it just fits with people who think a serious crime has occurred but don't want to get involved, & think someone's bound to report it so it's not their problem.
It's not ideal, but the case is much better off for their evidence than without it.
Comments
Sorry - just bringing factors to your attention (Merryll Vorster style lol) before you exonerate OP completely due to Mike's house search being 100% definitely time-consuming and fully completed before he dialed a number. ;-)
The impossible breathing after 3:16 should be a concern, as should wanting to move her downstairs by 3:19 then claiming it was Netcare that told him to.
Dr. Stipp's impression was she was very much not alive (cornea already glazed, clenched jaw, no pulse).
When OP was describing Stipp's appearance, which he claims coincides to the last moments of Reeva's life, he sounded sad, with his trembly voice, but most of his words were describing alleged failings of Dr. Stipp. For such an upset man he certainly paid a lot of attention to Dr. Stipp's failings and felt we should know about them too. Doesn't than concern you a little?
Benjamini was not suggesting that whatsoever. B merely stated that by that stage, OP was at a point of no return, therefore took the option of pre-meditated murder to silence her, (fearing the consequences), and concocted a ridiculous story to attempt to save his ass.
Is there only me thats wondered whether that was Dr Stipps's 'domestic servant' (whom we know was on the phone)
No seriously, she is not on her own, she has the two assessors also, all will work together. They also have the two Advocates closing arguments which should clarify things for them. Then there will be various previous cases that can be referred to which will give guidance as to what previous Judges have said and done.
Its a huge mess, most of it theatre, but the Judge is very experienced as are the assessors.
She would clearly have come forward if it had been her knowing that the Stipps were testifying. She wouldn't be arguing so loud as they have 3 children.
Also stipps house is 77m to the North of OP's. Whereas Van der Merwe's is 100m to the South-West.
Aerial photographs show there are a few houses is could be in an arc perhaps but certainly not the Stipps!
That's not correct.
Dr Stipp indeed said he felt sure the bangs that woke him up were gunshots. Then they heard a woman screaming. However they did not immediately call security. They were out on the balcony for a few minutes trying to figure out where the screams were coming from.
Dr Stipp went inside and dialled either an incorrect number or couldn't get through. He was dressing and calling at the same time.
He then tried another number and couldn't get through. He then heard another 3 bangs. He then tried security again - either the same number or a new one - and this time got through.
Given times of Mike & Dr Stipps calls to security, they were clearly after the second set of bangs.
Ah, I'm with you now.
still not believing the second noises were the bat though.
-the photos of blood spurt on the wall outside the bedroom are not hair-swipes.
-johnson and burger would not have heard cricket bat bangs
- stipps were fully awake at this point and would have seen him batting the door and would not have confused the sounds of gunshots.
- it's an obvious lie that the door was locked with the key on the floor. he would not have been able, with socked prostheses on tiles, to lean in and pick up the key.
also, if you think that he shot her earlier, do you really think he would have wasted time barging and then going for his cricket bat to get in? he'd have just shot the lock off.
I appreciate the attempt at brevity
Righty ho; premeditated murder is a whole lot less messy and inconvenient than a blazing row. Gotcha.
But the bathroom was empty before firing his gun, after blasting the door he still believed intruders on the ladder were a threat. As I stated in his mind he was "100% sure an intruder was in the toilet" that Reeva was in the bedroom.
From the first noise he details the ladders, the window with no bars, the locked bedroom door etc.....there's no evidence of him attempting to make sense of the events leading to the shooting....there's no 'I don't understand how she was in the toilet when I knew she was in bed."
There were a couple of smiley in my post.
Nel's pretty canny. I think he calculated that even if the witnesses made errors that the pressure could be used to good effect to make OP reveal what he heard: Or lie to try and cover what he heard - as he certainly appears to have done - with the magazine rack - and with saying he was screaming his head off after being 'startled' and while blasted the intruder to pieces [Something else Mike and his wife missed btw].
Nel's language changed after the exam: He began describing the screams themselves as 'a controversial aspect of the case'. I'm unconvinced he will make it the mainstay of his case. That will be ballistics + Pistorius' credibility + indications they were awake (lights on duvet etc fans being a lie and so forth gastric contents) + state of relationship being poor.
He created the space for his witnesses to be in error on some details but nevertheless honest already.
Both he and Roux can fiddle around pedantically with the uncertainties but it won't be good enough for the judge to decide fully the order of events IMO.
We'll see anyway how much he makes of timelines, in due course...
'Almost' immediately then, for those being pedantic and missing the wider point.
OK
It's not just Mrs Stipp, Dr Stipp also corroborates that timeline.
3:02 means the first shots were 2.58-2.59. Which fits with Burger waking up 'Just after 3am' (NB Juror 13 quotes this incorrectly), and Merwe waking up 'some time after 3'.
The latter witnesses all hear the screaming but the didn't hear the shots that caused it. It may be that the shots woke them up, or it may be the screams alone.
I don't think that the fact that Mrs Stipp decided that the impression of a man at OP's was a suggestion of her husband's rather than a concrete memory - tells you anything other than her integrity as a witness. And who knows it may be that she did see a man at the time, but then couldn't remember if she definitely had or not, and erred on the side of caution.
Not really. Merwe heard the loud female voice arguing over an hour earlier. Burger/Johnson and Stipp heard female screams intermingled either with male screams or a male shouting help 3 times, depending on the version.
I agree with you. I think they could well be in the wrong place unless OP called 3 help cries twice and the Stipps didn't make out the words the first time.
Not even 'almost immediately'. There's a gap of around 15 mins between reporting having heard the first set of bangs, and getting through to security after the second set.
So glad you finally get it
1. Unless I missed it, I don't think he tried to say that his thinking was terribly clear.
2. Agreed, he doesn't seem to have admitted that it was a ludicrous thing to do.
BiB: Not integrity. Reliability. Given it's middle of night, stressful, fluish, and furthermore - understandably - outraged. ;-)
OK- i'm off - have fun people.
Aww
Apart from, I won't shoot at the shower door, as a warning shot, the bullet may ricochet and hurt me.
Not on Dr Stipps's account. You're thinking of Mrs Stipp.
I have no clue what you're even talking about. 15 posts in, eh.
Personally I never saw the 3 helps as evidence of premeditation either way.
I think it just fits with people who think a serious crime has occurred but don't want to get involved, & think someone's bound to report it so it's not their problem.
It's not ideal, but the case is much better off for their evidence than without it.
Integrity and reliability.
She seemed perfectly calm and clear in her recollections on the stand.
Have a good one!