[Generalissimo]

Perhaps Valencia could compete again if they ever get their new stadium finished, or if one if the other clubs is taken over by arabs.

[bunk_medal]

Originally Posted by walterwhite

Wouldn't work. Who would the clubs draft the players from? Plus it hardly works in the NFL.

The draft wouldn't work, but we could still learn a lot from sports like baseball. Baseball is run more or less to try and get as much competition as possible (though teams like the Yankees still have a big advantage).

The main reason they can do that is that the power for running the sport has been given to one man (the Commissioner) rather than held by all the teams jointly. When teams vote on proposals themselves it just becomes biased towards the strongest teams - see the SPL for an example.

[the chimp]

Originally Posted by highlight

Wasn't making a point after I wrote about our league the op was discussing teams in the La Liga. Was just making a harmless comment not aimed at you or anyone else.

He wasnt discussing teams in la liga though, he was saying teams from all other leagues couldnt compete.

[the chimp]

Originally Posted by drop dead fred

Chelsea knocked Barca out (and won the Champions League) with a bit of luck

No such thing, its called organisation, in the second half at the Nou Camp I've never seen Barca more clueless in the last few years, they didnt know what to do.

[batdude_uk1]

Originally Posted by bunk_medal

The draft wouldn't work, but we could still learn a lot from sports like baseball. Baseball is run more or less to try and get as much competition as possible (though teams like the Yankees still have a big advantage).

The main reason they can do that is that the power for running the sport has been given to one man (the Commissioner) rather than held by all the teams jointly. When teams vote on proposals themselves it just becomes biased towards the strongest teams - see the SPL for an example.

The key difference here is that with all American sports, they are just that, "American" sports, yes the sports may very well be played elsewhere in the world, but the draft only covers America (and I think so close islands).
A draft or something like that in football would have to be world wide, not just European, as look at the transfer window, that is a mess, as UEFA cannot pick a date that is suitable for all of their member leagues (hence you can claptrap from managers in this country saying that they wish the window closed before our league started).

A world wide draft just wouldn't work, and we already have one man with a lot of power, Sepp Blatter, that works well doesn't it, no corruption there at all is there??

All of those things work well in American sports becase they only have to worry about America, and no where else.
Whereas football (or socccer) has to worry about the whole globe, as it is all interlinked to one degree or another.

[bunk_medal]

Originally Posted by batdude_uk1

A world wide draft just wouldn't work, and we already have one man with a lot of power, Sepp Blatter, that works well doesn't it, no corruption there at all is there??

All of those things work well in American sports becase they only have to worry about America, and no where else.
Whereas football (or socccer) has to worry about the whole globe, as it is all interlinked to one degree or another.

Almost all of these allegations of corruption are actually about football associations horse trading with each other during voting processes. Also if you look at the power of people like Platini to change the game, it's curtailed quite significantly in practice by the fact that he has to balance the feelings of clubs and other interests whenever he has a proposal. A lot of ideas put forward by Platini have fallen flat on their face because he couldn't get enough support for them.

The bottom line is that within a particular country dominant clubs are never going to vote to make themselves worse. Success is self-perpetuating because the best/richest clubs become the most powerful politically within a country and then block every major attempt to make the game more competitive. The only way you can genuinely foster competition is by having some form of indirect decision-making - as Bud Selig (the Commissioner of baseball) has within his sport.

[batdude_uk1]

Originally Posted by bunk_medal

Almost all of these allegations of corruption are actually about football associations horse trading with each other during voting processes. Also if you look at the power of people like Platini to change the game, it's curtailed quite significantly in practice by the fact that he has to balance the feelings of clubs and other interests whenever he has a proposal. A lot of ideas put forward by Platini have fallen flat on their face because he couldn't get enough support for them.

The bottom line is that within a particular country dominant clubs are never going to vote to make themselves worse. Success is self-perpetuating because the best/richest clubs become the most powerful politically within a country and then block every major attempt to make the game more competitive. The only way you can genuinely foster competition is by having some form of indirect decision-making - as Bud Selig (the Commissioner of baseball) has within his sport.

I see where you are coming from, and I can see how it works in the USA with their sports, but I just cannot see how it would work with football, being as it is a world game, and not just restricted to one country.
There are or is a lot more politics involved with football (as there are far more people to try and please, or to try and persuade to get along with each other).

[SULLA]

I don't recall seeing either of these two team in last years Champions League final

[drop dead fred]

Originally Posted by the chimp

No such thing [as luck], its called organisation, in the second half at the Nou Camp I've never seen Barca more clueless in the last few years, they didnt know what to do.

Do you seriously believe that? So against Reading the other day was Torres just well organised when he scored from an offside position or was that down to bad Reading organisation? That was bad refereeing and that is just luck by another name.

Chelsea were well organised to an extent. I give them credit for winning the competition but they did concede a lot of chances to Barca and Bayern, it was just that those clubs were just awful at putting the ball in the net. So they weren't that organised or no chances would have been given away.

[drop dead fred]

Originally Posted by JMTD

Chelsea defeated Barcelona over two legs, so your ridiculous logic is failed.

I'm tired of people acting like mystic meg thinking they know what would happen. Nobody knows. United, City or Chelsea could go to La Liga and storm the league. Or Barcelona and Madrid could come to the PL and storm the league. Nobody knows and nobody likely ever will know, because it's not going to happen, so stop being silly and even saying ridiculous stuff such as "United would finished 20 plus points behind", when Manchester United are amongst the greatest teams in world football.

This belief that there's some mass gulf between the top sides is beyond pathetic.

Firstly. I see myself as more Septic Peg than Mystic Meg: 'I see that the winner of the lottery will live in a house... with a number on it'. Genius!

Secondly, I didn't, and neither did anyone else, say that for definite this would happen. I think teams would struggle in La Liga due to the difference in styles of play. Man U, Liverpool, Juventus, Milan etc. are great teams, I just don't think they'd adjust to the style in a one off La Liga season with the sqauds they have now in order to close the gap beyond 10-20 points. Mourinho thinks that also and he knows a thing or two about football, certainly more than any one on this forum anyway unless Sir Alex Ferguson is secretely a member of the forum.

Anyway, we are talking about opinions. We all have them and are all free to share them - within reason, obviously. We'd be living in a communist/dictatorship state all thinking and doing the same things otherwise. I mean if we weren't allowed to air these differing views what would people talk about?
A: That Usain Bolt's the fastest man in the world isn't he?
B: Yes he is. But who'll win the 100m final in Rio?
A: Eh, I don't know... are we allowed to talk about this as we might have different opinions on it and that isn't allowed. Let's ask the All Mighty Oz.
Oz: Blake will win.
A: Yay we can talk about it, Blake will win-
B: But by how much? Oz...?
Oz: By two tenths of a second.

Using exageration obviously but the point remains, differing opinions are normal. And I'm sure Godwin's law here we come!

[JMTD]

Originally Posted by drop dead fred

Firstly. I see myself as more Septic Peg than Mystic Meg: 'I see that the winner of the lottery will live in a house... with a number on it'. Genius!

Secondly, I didn't, and neither did anyone else, say that for definite this would happen. I think teams would struggle in La Liga due to the difference in styles of play. Man U, Liverpool, Juventus, Milan etc. are great teams, I just don't think they'd adjust to the style in a one off La Liga season with the sqauds they have now in order to close the gap beyond 10-20 points. Mourinho thinks that also and he knows a thing or two about football, certainly more than any one on this forum anyway unless Sir Alex Ferguson is secretely a member of the forum.

Anyway, we are talking about opinions. We all have them and are all free to share them - within reason, obviously. We'd be living in a communist/dictatorship state all thinking and doing the same things otherwise. I mean if we weren't allowed to air these differing views what would people talk about?
A: That Usain Bolt's the fastest man in the world isn't he?
B: Yes he is. But who'll win the 100m final in Rio?
A: Eh, I don't know... are we allowed to talk about this as we might have different opinions on it and that isn't allowed. Let's ask the All Mighty Oz.
Oz: Blake will win.
A: Yay we can talk about it, Blake will win-
B: But by how much? Oz...?
Oz: By two tenths of a second.

Using exageration obviously but the point remains, differing opinions are normal. And I'm sure Godwin's law here we come!

People are always entitled to their opinions, that doesn't mean those opinions cant be laughed at for being so downright ridiculous. Somebody could claim Heskey is the top striker in the world, it'd be an opinion, though it wouldn't stop it from being downright ridiculous.

What has Mourinho got to do with anything? So because he states something like that, it's more reliable? Well in that case, a week ago SAF said Madrid and Barcelona couldn't come to the PL and have the likes of Messi and Ronaldo scoring the amount they do in La Liga. So, he's been around for quite sometime, he knows quite a lot, so should we use that as if it makes that argument more reliable?

Suddenly you've gone from 30 points to 20 and now even throwing in 10 as the points difference. You can have that opinion, but when you do, don't be surprised if myself or possibly others find it silly. There's no way of knowing. It's not far from as bad as the people who claim Madrid and Barcelona are "OMGZ GREATEST SINCE THAT BRAZIL SIDE, THEY WOULD DESTROY ALL, EASILY BEST IN THE WORLD THE OTHERS ARE AMATEUR COMPARED!".

This argument is ridiculous, it's all if's and but's with nothing what so ever to back anything up. You talk about the style of the league as if top class sides such as United couldn't eventually adapt and change to suit that style. Why people still believe that in today's age that one style is better than another is beyond me. Your only real back up was to talk about Bilbao beating United in Europe last season...fair dues, they beat United in a two legged tie...your argument is clearly spot on and you're correct.

[Pee]

Originally Posted by JMTD

People are always entitled to their opinions, that doesn't mean those opinions cant be laughed at for being so downright ridiculous. Somebody could claim Heskey is the top striker in the world, it'd be an opinion, though it wouldn't stop it from being downright ridiculous.

What has Mourinho got to do with anything? So because he states something like that, it's more reliable? Well in that case, a week ago SAF said Madrid and Barcelona couldn't come to the PL and have the likes of Messi and Ronaldo scoring the amount they do in La Liga. So, he's been around for quite sometime, he knows quite a lot, so should we use that as if it makes that argument more reliable?

Suddenly you've gone from 30 points to 20 and now even throwing in 10 as the points difference. You can have that opinion, but when you do, don't be surprised if myself or possibly others find it silly. There's no way of knowing. It's not far from as bad as the people who claim Madrid and Barcelona are "OMGZ GREATEST SINCE THAT BRAZIL SIDE, THEY WOULD DESTROY ALL, EASILY BEST IN THE WORLD THE OTHERS ARE AMATEUR COMPARED!".

This argument is ridiculous, it's all if's and but's with nothing what so ever to back anything up. You talk about the style of the league as if top class sides such as United couldn't eventually adapt and change to suit that style. Why people still believe that in today's age that one style is better than another is beyond me. Your only real back up was to talk about Bilbao beating United in Europe last season...fair dues, they beat United in a two legged tie...your argument is clearly spot on and you're correct.

as ridiculous as the argument that they're only able to do it in crappy La Liga?

[JMTD]

Originally Posted by Pee

as ridiculous as the argument that they're only able to do it in crappy La Liga?

Yes, that argument is also ridiculous, because La Liga is not crap.

[RoyalP]

Originally Posted by the chimp

No such thing, its called organisation, in the second half at the Nou Camp I've never seen Barca more clueless in the last few years, they didnt know what to do.

Puyol is a big loss.

[drop dead fred]

Originally Posted by JMTD

This argument is ridiculous, it's all if's and but's with nothing what so ever to back anything up. You talk about the style of the league as if top class sides such as United couldn't eventually adapt and change to suit that style. Why people still believe that in today's age that one style is better than another is beyond me. Your only real back up was to talk about Bilbao beating United in Europe last season...fair dues, they beat United in a two legged tie...your argument is clearly spot on and you're correct.

Most football discussions are ifs and buts (and don't we all wish those ifs and buts were candy and nuts?), and what is wrong with that? That's why we love the sport and discussing it: we can largely never be proved wrong (it's a kind of maniacal power that anyone can have and enjoy). Are all those that have discussed who is better Messi, Pele or Maradona down the years fools for doing so as it can never be conclusively answered? You seem to think they are.

Anyway... if adjusting to style wasn't important then England would be world beaters. Our high tempo style employed in this country would overwhelm every national team, not just the poor ones, yet we were outplayed by Ukraine at the Euros! Our nation's best players couldn't adapt to the possession based style of Ukraine never mind those of Italy or France! Yes England never lost those games but that was largely down to the likes of Ukraine having no decent clinical players in the final third in those games. Teams can't get away with being outplayed like that every week.

[JMTD]

Originally Posted by drop dead fred

Most football discussions are ifs and buts (and don't we all wish those ifs and buts were candy and nuts?), and what is wrong with that? That's why we love the sport and discussing it: we can largely never be proved wrong (it's a kind of maniacal power that anyone can have and enjoy). Are all those that have discussed who is better Messi, Pele or Maradona down the years fools for doing so as it can never be conclusively answered? You seem to think they are.

Anyway... if adjusting to style wasn't important then England would be world beaters. Our high tempo style employed in this country would overwhelm every national team, not just the poor ones, yet we were outplayed by Ukraine at the Euros! Our nation's best players couldn't adapt to the possession based style of Ukraine never mind those of Italy or France! Yes England never lost those games but that was largely down to the likes of Ukraine having no decent clinical players in the final third in those games. Teams can't get away with being outplayed like that every week.

What on gods name has discussing Messi, Pele and Maradonna got to do with any of this? Yes, that'd be opinion based, but having a discussion on who is the greatest player of all time is quite different to claiming world class teams such as United and co would fall 30 points short if they were in La Liga. That's your opinion, what I'm saying is that I think that opinion is sheer madness.

And what the England international team have to do with this I really do not know. It's verging on baffling, I'm not sure what else to say.

[drop dead fred]

Originally Posted by JMTD

What on gods name has discussing Messi, Pele and Maradonna got to do with any of this? Yes, that'd be opinion based, but having a discussion on who is the greatest player of all time is quite different to claiming world class teams such as United and co would fall 30 points short if they were in La Liga. That's your opinion, what I'm saying is that I think that opinion is sheer madness.

And what the England international team have to do with this I really do not know. It's verging on baffling, I'm not sure what else to say.

JMTD (or ‘Mr Ridiculous’ as I will now affectionately call you given you like to use the word in a large proportion of your sentences), I think if you follow this discussion all the way back to my first contribution you’ll find everything I have said follows quite logically, it is not necessarily my fault you didn’t follow it, as I’ll show as quickly as I can as I’m tired of this debate and I need to do a fair bit of work today:

The OP asked whether any club in La Liga could speculatively (which is an idea you seem to have took exception to) close the gap on Madrid/Barca. I said no and I expanded the debate further. To explain why I thought no team could – as you should do in discussions – I said something which brings us onto...

Why I spoke of Mourinho and brought style into the debate which you didn’t fully comprehend (why you didn’t I don’t know given I was quite clear why I mentioned him, anyway...): I brought them up because I shared Mourinho’s view that if any other club entered La Liga they wouldn’t be able to knock Barca and Madrid off their perch. I further qualified this view – once again as I said this is something you should do in discussions – by explaining that the reason I believed this would be down to style and the likes of Man U/Chelsea/Man C wouldn’t fully adjust to that with the squads they have.

You then said: ‘You talk about the style of the league as if top class sides such as United couldn't eventually adapt and change to suit that style. Why people still believe that in today's age that one style is better than another is beyond me.’ Therefore, in response to this I based my reply on real situations and said that if style wasn’t a factor then our English national team would be ‘world beaters’ as they should be able to overpower other national teams due to our fast paced and strong Prem league style; but, our English national team try to employ that style yet fail, they couldn’t adapt to a more possession based game against the likes of Ukraine, Italy and France at the Euros (and World Cups and Euros of years gone by, for that matter). You see, to discuss a topic that is speculative you base it on similar scenarios and events that have happened – logical you see.

Then... I said England didn’t lose in the Euros but then furthered that by saying playing 38 games in a row week in week out where you constantly concede possession like our national team and our Prem clubs do (including Utd etc.) this will get to you in the end. They could adapt I fully agree with you but it would take a long time, not a one off season. In the meantime they will be so tired of chasing the ball that concentration will drop and they will concede, concede, concede and concede again. My speculative view was based the idea that if England actually got through to play Germany at the Euros this fatigue theory would have been illustrated as they would surely have been so physically and mentally drained it could have become embarrassing.

You also said: ‘This argument is ridiculous, it's all if's and but's with nothing what so ever to back anything up’: with this you are basically inferring that people talking about something that can’t be empirically proven is ‘ridiculous’. And, I think you’ll find that all the analysis I brought up tries to back up my idea. Therefore, I said that is what football fans do. We have these discussions that can’t be empirically proven liiiiiiike.... the Messi/Pele/Maradona debate.

You then said that it is ok to discuss the player debate, but it is ridiculous and entirely different to discuss the league one: How is that player debate different to the one regarding whether or not clubs such as Man U etc. could close the gap on Madrid/Barca? Actually, you are right there is a difference. It is actually more logical to discuss the team debate rather than the Messi, Pele and Maradona one. Why? Because however improbable, it is actually possible for Man Utd to play in La Liga. If one of the world’s richest people decided to buy say Celta Vigo, sack all their players and manager, offer the Glaziers £1 billion for all the Utd playing, coaching and management staff... hey presto... Utd are in La Liga. As I said it is obviously improbable but it ISN’T impossible. But, is it in any way shape or form possible for Messi, Pele and Maradona in their prime to play with and against the exact same opposition to settle the debate of who is the best once and for all? No it isn’t as they are from different eras (time machines don’t exist), at least the club debate is based around right here right now with a lot more controllable variables. My debate is improbable, but is possible.

My arguments are thought out and reasoned based on logic. You might not agree with my outcomes but they are rational and what I believe in a speculative debate I backed up with real life examples, as you should do in such debates: that clubs would not catch Barca/Madrid up if plumped into La Liga because they would struggle with adapting to the possession based style of the Spanish teams (even the lesser ones). I completely agree with some of what you said, that opinions can be laughed at, but in order to laugh you need to explain why it is laughable beyond it been purely ‘downright ridiculous’.

PEE on your computer, make a Point, give an Example and then Explain why the example justifies your point.

Anyone reading this who isn’t ‘Mr Ridiculous’, is this whole brou-ha-ha based on his inability to read and argue adeptly, right? I don't mind if you don't agree with my deductions, btw, but if you don't do say more than its 'baffling' and 'ridiculous'.