Work Capability Assessment Discriminatory - RESULT!

scottie2121 · 22/05/13 - 19:20

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22620894

Great news and hopefully the DWP will act to change things rather than use taxpayer's money to launch an appeal (but I doubt it).

annette kurten · 22/05/13 - 19:25

how many successful legal challenges to the coalition benefit changes has there been now?

spookyLX · 22/05/13 - 19:29

scottie2121 wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22620894

Great news and hopefully the DWP will act to change things rather than use taxpayer's money to launch an appeal (but I doubt it).

There have been countless of these victories but nothing has changed nothing will change not even if Labour get in as they actually support these tests

Deacon1972 · 22/05/13 - 19:31

Sadly a little too late for my friend who has spent the last 15months in anguish after being put through this disgusting charade, but hopefully this will be a positive turning point for thousands of other sufferers.

Jason · 22/05/13 - 19:33

Not unsurprisingly ..

The Department for Work and Pensions says it will appeal against the ruling

Look for IDS to appear on TV and claim the two who won the case are workshy scroungers.

chrisii2011 · 22/05/13 - 19:46

About time too!

nomad2king · 22/05/13 - 20:03

How are ATOS and the DWP expected to know the situation? Telepathy?:rolleyes: How was the previous situation with the PCA or the current system with DLA any better?:rolleyes:

From the 2012 independent Harrington review.

50. The year one recommendations for Atos – including the introduction of a personalised summary statement in the report of every assessment, the introduction of Mental Function Champions, a pilot of audio recording, and the introduction of a clear customer charter – have all been implemented.
51. As reported in the year two Review, Mental Function Champions have been introduced at a regional level, rather than in each Assessment Centre as was originally recommended. Given scarce resources the Review supported this approach.
...
99. The Review met one of the Champions during its visit to an Atos Assessment Centre. He described being able to help healthcare professionals both locally and nationally. He had also built a series of contacts with Community Mental Health Trusts to ensure greater provision of further documentary evidence.

At least attempts are being made to improve the system, unlike under Labour.

scottie2121 · 22/05/13 - 21:06

nomad2king wrote: »

How are ATOS and the DWP expected to know the situation? Telepathy?:rolleyes: How was the previous situation with the PCA or the current system with DLA any better?:rolleyes:

From the 2012 independent Harrington review.
At least attempts are being made to improve the system, unlike under Labour.

I haven't a clue what you're getting at with the telepathy comment.

But it seems you're just rambling in order to make a political point 0/10.

Educate yourself:

http://www.mind.org.uk/campaigns_and_issues/policy_and_issues/making_benefits_fairer-welfare_reform/benefits_welfare-key_is

nomad2king · 22/05/13 - 21:47

scottie2121 wrote: »

I haven't a clue what you're getting at with the telepathy comment.

But it seems you're just rambling in order to make a political point 0/10.

Educate yourself:

http://www.mind.org.uk/campaigns_and_issues/policy_and_issues/making_benefits_fairer-welfare_reform/benefits_welfare-key_is

How are ATOS expected to know something that isn't on the form or with the claim?

pickwick · 22/05/13 - 21:52

nomad2king wrote: »

How are ATOS expected to know something that isn't on the form or with the claim?

You'd think that the people who are meant to be assessing people's mental health problems might perhaps know something about the symptoms of mental health problems without resorting to telepathy!

Well, I would think that, but maybe I'm just unreasonable :rolleyes:

scottie2121 · 22/05/13 - 21:58

nomad2king wrote: »

How are ATOS expected to know something that isn't on the form or with the claim?

Perhaps there are problems with the form?

Perhaps the ATOS assessment focuses on physical health and not on mental health?

Perhaps there is a grossly negligent attitude to mental health issues and just how debilitating they can be?

Perhaps the Tory Government is purely interested in reducing the benefit bill without true regard to people's situations?

Perhaps the DWP/ATOS have actually been acting illegally by not meeting their obligations under the equality Act 2010?

chrisii2011 · 22/05/13 - 23:15

scottie2121 wrote: »

Perhaps there are problems with the form?

Perhaps the ATOS assessment focuses on physical health and not on mental health?

Perhaps there is a grossly negligent attitude to mental health issues and just how debilitating they can be?

Perhaps the Tory Government is purely interested in reducing the benefit bill without true regard to people's situations?

Perhaps the DWP/ATOS have actually been acting illegally by not meeting their obligations under the equality Act 2010?

I agree with all those points

nomad2king · 22/05/13 - 23:29

pickwick wrote: »

You'd think that the people who are meant to be assessing people's mental health problems might perhaps know something about the symptoms of mental health problems without resorting to telepathy!

Well, I would think that, but maybe I'm just unreasonable :rolleyes:

When those symptoms are not given to ATOS in the first place, how can they be accused of making an incorrect decision on something they haven't been told about?

If they are told of the symptoms but no evidence is found or provided, what other conclusions can they come to?

scottie2121 wrote: »

Perhaps there are problems with the form?

Perhaps the ATOS assessment focuses on physical health and not on mental health?

Perhaps there is a grossly negligent attitude to mental health issues and just how debilitating they can be?

Perhaps the Tory Government is purely interested in reducing the benefit bill without true regard to people's situations?

Perhaps the DWP/ATOS have actually been acting illegally by not meeting their obligations under the equality Act 2010?

A lot of 'perhaps', but not much in the way of evidence from you.

There 10 sets of questions relating to Physical problems and 7 for Mental, cognitive and intellectual functions. That is more than the single page devoted to mental health in the old IB50 form.

The complaints were not about the decisions but that they were arrived at with incomplete info.

The Upper Tribunal was told people who have conditions that mean they lack insight can struggle to gather the right documents needed for a successful claim, such as doctors' reports.

If they are having that sort of trouble, then they are likely to have somebody help them with the form. That person can then arrange for any reports to be included.
From the ESA50 form.

If we are able to get enough information about you from this questionnaire, your doctor or the person treating you, we may not need to ask you to attend a face-to-face assessment.
If you have any medical reports from your doctor, consultant or health care professional, or any other information you wish us to see, please send them with this questionnaire.
...
If you want help filling in this questionnaire or any part of it
Ask a friend, relative or representative to help you, or get in touch with Jobcentre Plus. The person from Jobcentre Plus will have a copy of the questionnaire and they will go through the questions you are having trouble with over the phone.
Sometimes they may be able to fill in a questionnaire for you. If they do this, they will send the questionnaire to you. You can then check, sign and send it back.

SmartTIIam · 23/05/13 - 00:01

nomad2king wrote: »

When those symptoms are not given to ATOS in the first place, how can they be accused of making an incorrect decision on something they haven't been told about? If they are told of the symptoms but no evidence is found or provided, what other conclusions can they come to?
A lot of 'perhaps', but not much in the way of evidence from you.

There 10 sets of questions relating to Physical problems and 7 for Mental, cognitive and intellectual functions. That is more than the single page devoted to mental health in the old IB50 form.

The complaints were not about the decisions but that they were arrived at with incomplete info.
If they are having that sort of trouble, then they are likely to have somebody help them with the form. That person can then arrange for any reports to be included.
From the ESA50 form.

Yes, you would think so wouldn't you :rolleyes: Unless the person has friends or relatives care they they can very easily slip through the net. Some people really are that vulnerable. Not everybody has family/friends who can/will help.

You have no idea what a bad state they can end up in.

pickwick · 23/05/13 - 00:32

nomad2king wrote: »

When those symptoms are not given to ATOS in the first place, how can they be accused of making an incorrect decision on something they haven't been told about? If they are told of the symptoms but no evidence is found or provided, what other conclusions can they come to?

Maybe if it's very difficult for people with mental health issues to do this kind of self-reporting, the government shouldn't have set up an arrangement where their money to live on depends on them doing it? It's like making wheelchair users climb a mountain to get their disability allowance.

nomad2king · 23/05/13 - 00:57

SmartTIIam wrote: »

Yes, you would think so wouldn't you :rolleyes: Unless the person has friends or relatives care they they can very easily slip through the net. Some people really are that vulnerable. Not everybody has family/friends who can/will help.

You have no idea what a bad state they can end up in.

pickwick wrote: »

Maybe if it's very difficult for people with mental health issues to do this kind of self-reporting, the government shouldn't have set up an arrangement where their money to live on depends on them doing it? It's like making wheelchair users climb a mountain to get their disability allowance.

How are ATOS or the DWP expected to know if whether that is the case? If the are competent enough to initiate an ESA claim by themselves, then it is not unreasonable to consider that they are not totally helpless.

A lot of people may not be able to fill out the form in the best way. ATOS and the DWP may apply the rules and the law incorrectly. But this case is not about either of those things. It was saying that ATOS should know something when no reports were supplied mentioning anything. If you don't tell them about problem X and no reports are supplied about it, and it is not observable at the WCA, what can ATOS do?

koantemplation · 23/05/13 - 01:14

scottie2121 wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22620894

Great news and hopefully the DWP will act to change things rather than use taxpayer's money to launch an appeal (but I doubt it).

Good news for those of us with autism.

Hopefully ATOS will be running scared now.

yorkiegal · 23/05/13 - 02:34

I just read the link and am a little worried now. It said that claimants have the responsibility of sending in supporting evidence from their gp or psychiatrist and that ATOS don't usually bother to apply for it themselves.
That is not made clear on the form. It makes it sound like you are welcome to send in supporting evidence if you wish but don't have to.

I'm being transferred from Incapacity benefit and sent my form off weeks ago. I don't have any assistance from secondary services because they deem my diagnosis to be too complex for them to help so i'm reliant on evidence from my gp's surgery, where i seem to see a different gp each time so they don't really understand my condition and it's limiting effects properly. They just want me to take my meds and leave them alone except for my yearly med review. I would imagine there are a lot of people with mental health issues who have a similiar problem.

JB3 · 23/05/13 - 02:55

koantemplation wrote: »

Good news for those of us with autism.

Hopefully ATOS will be running scared now.

One can hope, but it wouldn't come as a complete surprise to me, if it transpires that ATOS belongs to some one close to govt. and won't run scared as they've got it all stiched up(us inlcuded) anyway.

Many of the companies that win govt. contracts for all the outsourcing they do, are also masters at tax avoidance.

[Deleted User] · 23/05/13 - 03:30

nomad2king wrote: »

When those symptoms are not given to ATOS in the first place, how can they be accused of making an incorrect decision on something they haven't been told about? If they are told of the symptoms but no evidence is found or provided, what other conclusions can they come to?
A lot of 'perhaps', but not much in the way of evidence from you.

There 10 sets of questions relating to Physical problems and 7 for Mental, cognitive and intellectual functions. That is more than the single page devoted to mental health in the old IB50 form.

The complaints were not about the decisions but that they were arrived at with incomplete info.
If they are having that sort of trouble, then they are likely to have somebody help them with the form. That person can then arrange for any reports to be included.
From the ESA50 form.

If you have seen the questions you will know how biased they are. For a start the 7 for Mental health and cognitive and intellectual functions are insulting.

I know as I had to fill in the form and get calmed down when i lost it when doing so because they are taking the piss.

1) Can you you learn how to do a simple task such as setting an alarm clock?

Yes, even people with depression, bi-polr, schizophrenia etc can change the time on a sodding clock.

2) Can you learn how to do a more complicated task such as using a washing machine?

Remind me again, the washing machine is the one that keeps things cold and the light comes on when you open the door isn't it?

3a) Please tick box if you can keep yourself safe when doing everyday tasks such as cooking

3b) Do you need supervision (somone to stay with you) to keep you safe?

Thanks for explaining what supervision means you patronising ******

3) Can you manage to plan, start and finish daily tasks?

Depends on the task.. getting dressed, yes, finding a cure for cancer... no!

4a) Can you cope with small changes to your routine if you know about them before they happen? (for example things like having a meal earlier or later than usual)

yes but i get thrown if my meals are at the time I thought they would be!

4b) Can you cope with small changes to your routine if they are unexpected? (Things like appointments being cancelled or your bus or train not running on time)

When do buses and trains ever run on ******* time?

5a) Can you leave home and go out to places you know is someone goes with you?

Yes as my keepr keeps me on a leash and drags me everywhere so i manage quite well. thank you for asking.

5b) Can you leave home on your own and go to places you don't know?

How will I know until i get there and by default the facT i am now there means I now know it. ha ha I have mental health problems and i can beat you with logic dumbass!

6a) Can you meet with people you know without feeling too anxious or scared?

Depends on who the person is and if they are going to be my pimp again and make me sell my body to sweird men with unnatural interests

6b) Can you meet with people you don't know without feeling too anxious or scared?

Surely taht depends on how scary and intimidating the person is? Logoc wins again!

7) How often do you behave in a way which upsets other people?

Don't know but if you was asking me these questions face to face I think we would both find out the answer to thsi question very quickly indeed.

They are the 7 question that they test for mental health problems ranging from depression or post-natel depression to schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, people recovering from strokes or have brain injuries.

These may be suitable for people with learning difficulties and taht is questionable, but they do not tell you anything about other mental health problems a person may have.

MY GP took the time to help me fill the form in because I would get seriously angry doing it. I had to keep apologising for my language, moods and anger. The whole form took me 3 days/sessions to fill in because it wound me up so much and set me off losing my temper at the idiotic questions and the obvious ways they were set up to make you fail.

Hey there!

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