Hamas and Israel: Neither are justified

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  • talentedmonkeytalentedmonkey Posts: 2,639
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    Hamas won't recognise Israel, Israel won't recognise Palestine, the Western world backs Israel no matter what.

    The whole situation is a mess of entrenched positions and no one wants to compromise.

    Actully Israel will recognise Palestine state, Israel have offered a Palestinian State numerous times, but it has been rejected each time.
  • Philip WalesPhilip Wales Posts: 6,373
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    ^ True but most countries eventually give back land acquired through war, even Russia and the UK
  • talentedmonkeytalentedmonkey Posts: 2,639
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    ^ True but most countries eventually give back land acquired through war, even Russia and the UK


    To give back anymore land will be suicide for Israel, the borders will be impossible to defend , they are not exactly secure as they are. Until Israel captured the Golan Heights, they were regularly shelled from those positions. I do not think the population of West Bank will be too thrilled to be put back under Jordanian rule and oppression.
  • Vast_GirthVast_Girth Posts: 9,793
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    So where is this land being taken from? So you think that Israel moves its borders a few metres every year and pinches extra bits of land from Egypt, Jordan etc? The land Israel owns is land won during the ARab wars. Egypt was given back the Sinai peninsular including the oilfields after signing a peace treaty with Israel. Jordan refused so Israel kept the West Bank. There is no extra bits of land being "Stolen".


    I dont pretend to be an expert on the situation, but you just have to look at the map of the region over the last 60 odd years to see a blatant land grab has been happening.

    http://www.jvpchicago.org/sites/default/files/Palestinian-Loss-Of-Land-1946-2010.jpg
  • DinkyDoobieDinkyDoobie Posts: 17,786
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    Vast_Girth wrote: »
    I dont pretend to be an expert on the situation, but you just have to look at the map of the region over the last 60 odd years to see a blatant land grab has been happening.

    http://www.jvpchicago.org/sites/default/files/Palestinian-Loss-Of-Land-1946-2010.jpg

    Here is a real map of palestine

    http://imgur.com/vJLeBOm
  • postitpostit Posts: 23,839
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    Here is a real map of palestine

    http://imgur.com/vJLeBOm

    That appears to be correct. The former map was obviously Palestinian propoganda.
  • dekafdekaf Posts: 8,398
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    Here is a real map of palestine

    http://imgur.com/vJLeBOm

    :D - Slightly different view, isn't it.
  • warlordwarlord Posts: 3,292
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    lemoncurd wrote: »
    I figure that once Israel and Palestine have mutually destroyed one another, there might be a chance of peace in the ME.

    I figure that the slaughter in Libya, Egypt, Syria and Iraq have nothing to do with Israel or the Palis
  • talentedmonkeytalentedmonkey Posts: 2,639
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    Vast_Girth wrote: »
    I dont pretend to be an expert on the situation, but you just have to look at the map of the region over the last 60 odd years to see a blatant land grab has been happening.

    http://www.jvpchicago.org/sites/default/files/Palestinian-Loss-Of-Land-1946-2010.jpg

    You conveniently overlook the fact that all the land grabbing happened as a direct result of Arab wars against Israel. Israel gave most of the land back but as Jordan refused to sign peace deals the West Bank and Gaza remained under Israeli ownership.

    If there was no war, then of course the borders would have remained the same. Most of the land is just desert anyway, but is vital for a secure defensive border, so Israel is not going to give up any land soon.

    Israel may end up handing over Jerusalem if they are promised a new temple on the mount.
  • talentedmonkeytalentedmonkey Posts: 2,639
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    warlord wrote: »
    I figure that the slaughter in Libya, Egypt, Syria and Iraq have nothing to do with Israel or the Palis

    Not forgetting the ongoing problems often resulting in armed conflict in Jordan and Lebanon.
  • What name??What name?? Posts: 26,623
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    Hamas won't recognise Israel, Israel won't recognise Palestine, the Western world backs Israel no matter what.

    The whole situation is a mess of entrenched positions and no one wants to compromise.

    Why should they compromise? When Germany invaded France or Russia compromise wasn't an option. Suggesting it would make you pro-naziism and it's the same here. One group colonised the lands and is subjugating the other. Compromise for the Palestinians means permanent control by Israel. That's the only "compromise" that's been out on the table. That's why there has been no agreement.

    Suggesting the Palestinians (because despite the Israeli propaganda Hamas and Palestine aren't synonymous) should compromise is ridiculous. At the moment they are struggling to get access to food, medicine and water. What can they possibly compromise with? What more can they give up?
  • Noel CanardNoel Canard Posts: 562
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    The Israelis are cruel and draconian..
    NX-74205 wrote: »
    What, all of them?

    This article seems to regard the majority as that:

    Poll: Overwhelming Support for IDF Operation, Netanyahu
    Seventy-seven percent (77%) of Israeli Jews polled "very strongly support" Operation Protective Edge's airstrikes on Gaza.

    Ninety-five percent (95%) of respondents said the operation has "made them proud of the IDF, the State of Israel, and the Jewish people."

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183441

    And there's a pretty disturbing video doing the rounds on the web:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYu6VCrYdGk
  • FMKKFMKK Posts: 32,074
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    Actully Israel will recognise Palestine state, Israel have offered a Palestinian State numerous times, but it has been rejected each time.

    Source for this?

    The closest they ever got to a settlement was in Taba in 2001 and it was actually the Israeli's who walked away from the negotiating table.
  • Noel CanardNoel Canard Posts: 562
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    FMKK wrote: »
    Source for this?

    The closest they ever got to a settlement was in Taba in 2001 and it was actually the Israeli's who walked away from the negotiating table.

    The only way Israel will accept a Palestinian state is on their terms.. i.e. one with no army, no airforce, no navy, no nothing.

    What country on the planet will accept being literally a non-entity?
  • habbyhabby Posts: 10,027
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    Which ever side you are on with regards the Gaza conflict, do not dare try to tell me they are justified because nether side are.

    Hamas are cruel and cowardly. The blindly fire rockets into Israel endangering innocent lives, they send suicide bombers into Israel with the intention of killing civilians and, they hide behind innocent civilians, and civilian buildings, with no regard for their safety.

    The Israelis are cruel and draconian. Their indiscriminate bombing of schools, hospitals, homes etc has done more damage than Hamas rockets ever could. They keep Palestinians confined to an area smaller than County Tipperary.

    As far as I am concerned, there are those on both sides who are in breach of international law and they should be found, arrested and frog marched to the Hague for trial.

    Another thread on the same subject, but with a different title.

    However. their bombing is not indiscriminate. It is targeted at specific sites where they know rockets are being fired from. And as you know, Hamas insist on doing it amongst their civilians, and civilian buildings even though Israel gives lots of warnings to get out, but Hamas tell them to stay where they are. Israel can't win either way.:(
  • FMKKFMKK Posts: 32,074
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    habby wrote: »
    Another thread on the same subject, but with a different title.

    However. their bombing is not indiscriminate. It is targeted at specific sites where they know rockets are being fired from. And as you know, Hamas insist on doing it amongst their civilians, and civilian buildings even though Israel gives lots of warnings to get out, but Hamas tell them to stay where they are. Israel can't win either way.:(

    Israel keeps telling people to get out but they really have nowhere to go. Blaming that on Hamas doesn't even make sense. And there is something very obvious that Israel can do to "win." Something where both sides win. That would be to stop demolishing the West Bank, stop the blockade of Gaza and use those gestures as a means of negotiating with Palestinians in good faith about a two-state solution based upon the 1967 line.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 8,240
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    A poll in the last few days states that 87% of Israelis want the war to continue.

    This bombardment has been going on for hours.
  • Vast_GirthVast_Girth Posts: 9,793
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    Here is a real map of palestine

    http://imgur.com/vJLeBOm

    I'm not saying your wrong, but they are both just random links. The one i posted seems to come up a lot more.

    I would be interested in seeing the true map and how its changed over the last 60 odd years if that one is incorrect but i cant seem to find anything else..
  • dekafdekaf Posts: 8,398
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    habby wrote: »
    Another thread on the same subject, but with a different title.

    However. their bombing is not indiscriminate. It is targeted at specific sites where they know rockets are being fired from. And as you know, Hamas insist on doing it amongst their civilians, and civilian buildings even though Israel gives lots of warnings to get out, but Hamas tell them to stay where they are. Israel can't win either way.:(

    The whole world seems to care more about the civillians in Gaza, than Hamas do. They are digusting for doing this, but it's par for course, isn't it, once again, seemingly no bounds to what they will do. If Israel did stop bombing these sites, Hamas would just carry on chucking the rockets in. What is Israel supposed to do?
  • Sorcha_27Sorcha_27 Posts: 138,453
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    Centaurion wrote: »
    Israel is a rich , modern, forward thinking Democracy, full of hard working, entrepreneurial , sexually liberated men and women, everything a modern Palestinian state wouldn't be.

    I agree! Well said
  • DinkyDoobieDinkyDoobie Posts: 17,786
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    Vast_Girth wrote: »
    I'm not saying your wrong, but they are both just random links. The one i posted seems to come up a lot more.

    I would be interested in seeing the true map and how its changed over the last 60 odd years if that one is incorrect but i cant seem to find anything else..

    Why only the last 60 years? "Palestine" was divided up around 100 years ago after Britain, France and i think Russia persuaded the Arabs to go to war with the Ottoman empire.

    http://cojs.org/cojswiki/index.php/File:British_Mandate_Palestine_1920.gif

    They gave everything to the west of the river to Jordan and when Israel declared itself a soveriegn state in 1947 all the arab nations went crazy and forced the division of the rest of it between the "palestinians" who are arabs, there aren't any people called Palestinians and the Jewish people.

    If it wasn't for Israel for the last 50 or so years people in the west bank would have been victims of human rights abuses at the hands of the Jordanians.

    There are probably a lot of people here who can tell you more about it than me though, i've probably got some bits wrong although i believe the overall theme is correct :)
  • cattygirlcattygirl Posts: 91
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    Which ever side you are on with regards the Gaza conflict, do not dare try to tell me they are justified because nether side are.

    Hamas are cruel and cowardly. The blindly fire rockets into Israel endangering innocent lives, they send suicide bombers into Israel with the intention of killing civilians and they hide behind innocent civilians with no regard for their safety.

    The Israelis are cruel and draconian. Their indiscriminate bombing of schools, hospitals, homes etc has done more damage than Hamas rockets ever could. They keep Palestinians confined to an area smaller than County Tipperary.

    As far as I am concerned, there are those on both sides who are in breach of international law and they should be found, arrested and frog marched to the Hague for trial.

    This thread started with this quote, it is not about who owns the land or how many years they have been fighting over it, its about men with powerful military weapons murdering children and babies.
    Both sides are guilty of crimes against humanity. How long is the rest of the world prepared to stand and watch the slaughter continue. There should be a combined international effort to get the civilians out of there as it should have happened in Syria.
  • habbyhabby Posts: 10,027
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    dekaf wrote: »
    The whole world seems to care more about the civillians in Gaza, than Hamas do. They are digusting for doing this, but it's par for course, isn't it, once again, seemingly no bounds to what they will do. If Israel did stop bombing these sites, Hamas would just carry on chucking the rockets in. What is Israel supposed to do?

    Exactly, but people don't want to believe it for some reason and just want to hate Israel.
  • FMKKFMKK Posts: 32,074
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    Centaurion wrote: »
    Israel is a rich , modern, forward thinking Democracy, full of hard working, entrepreneurial , sexually liberated men and women, everything a modern Palestinian state wouldn't be.

    Why do people think that being a democracy or rich or modern (i.e, westernised) is somehow a justification for slaughter, violence, occupation and illegal settlements? It isn't.
  • JustmadeitJustmadeit Posts: 7,512
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    This article seems to regard the majority as that:

    Poll: Overwhelming Support for IDF Operation, Netanyahu



    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183441

    And there's a pretty disturbing video doing the rounds on the web:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYu6VCrYdGk


    That video is shocking. I cant believe that so called adults would call for death and destruction so casually.

    The truth is this : it is wrong of hamas to fire rockets at israel, and hamas dont represent all the people in gaza ( the palestinians). These rockets however are intercepted by the advanced israeli military thankfully

    Israel however is heavily armed and financed by the united states. It has a very advanced and heavily armed military.The i.d.f of israel have gone in and killed over 1000 people recently, and a couple of hundred children too. This is not about getting hamas, this is about trying to drive the people completely off the land and to demoralise them.

    After world war 2 and the appaling holocaust, the jewish people were given a homeland with the creation of israel shortly after in 1948. The land was known as palestine before that and jews and muslims and christians were living there.

    More and more land was taken off the palestinian arabs and isralei settlements were built. People who had lost their land were and are very angry, And more land has continued to be taken with setllements built for israelis. Many people are confined to gaza and the west bank. Condtions are terrible in gaza with a wall built around it seperating it from israel. Israel is rich and very powerful and controls so many things about gaza. The israeli government have through the israeli defence force ( i.d.f) massacred over a thousand people this last 2 weeks, yet they call it 'defence'....which is a very orwellian term, being of course the opposite of defence, it has been an outright attack causing widespread death and destruction.

    The bbc have covered it very poorly giving great airtime to israeli defence force members and little coverage to palestinians: and giving the viewer no real understanding of the historical context of the whole conflict

    We must condemn violent actions on both sides, be that hamas or israel.

    Many innocent people including children are lying dead in a morgue tonight in gaza Israel may claim they were human shields used by hamas but the truth is they werent. Gaza is heavily populated and there is no where to hide when bombs and rockets strike.

    People need to stop this and take down the walls around gaza and give people land to share. Its the only solution.
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