I thought they were asked to buy a "human skeleton" like the winning team I would automatically think a set of bones assembled in to a body.... NOT a packet of paper
Well yes, but that would only apply to some of them. Some of them appeared to be Japanese tourists. Presumably the business people who appear on the Apprentice do so in the hope of promoting their own brand, but members of the public who join in unwittingly surely don't expect to be used as part of someone else's game show.
Wonkey, I'm with you, Sugar wouldn't want to be associated with such shoddiness. He surely can't fund awful days out for people and expect them not to be compensated.
Interesting. There is a lot of conversation on Twitter with people who have bought things from Apprentice candidates (this is where a lot of the spoilers come from, people upload photos). To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever said anything about being refunded. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't, but I think with the number of customers that have been involved over the years this would have come out somewhere. If you really want to know for certain, it wouldn't be too difficult to ask them. The links to lots of the photos have been posted in the spoilers thread, you could tweet the people and ask if they were refunded, and then we'd all know for sure. In the meantime though, I'm going to continue to assume that they are not, because I really don't think they need to be (and the evidence points to that).
The problem is that Felipe wasn't in a law court. He was on a show inspired by business with a potential invester who is known for being a cantankerous old git. It's not the time to start trying to show him up.
I'm with Joel_B here. It was just terribly poor psychology; A better player would have realized that Felipe and AS were not rivals trying to out-smart each other; in the Apprentice, AS is God; if you can't accept that, you obviously fall at the first hurdle. All I can say is that I would have been astonished if AS had congratulated him on his shrewd move re. the skeleton. If I had been Mark and Katie, I would have had a fit, then sprinted out at maximum speed to find a skeleton that was more than a pile of paper shapes in a packet.
it is plain and simple. If we follow the brief by the T, then we have to make sure the meaning of each concept, and a skeleton is:
The bones of a human or an animal considered as a whole, together forming the framework of the body.
2.
any of various structures forming a rigid framework in an invertebrate.
It is therefore a necessary condition for a skeleton to be a skeleton that is already built, as it is defines "the rigid framework of the body".
Then therefore, it should not be accepted.
Having said that, I applaud Felipe´s audacity to think outside the box and for taking the gamble. It is ironic how The Apprentice on one side tries to encourage "risk taking" "gambles", "thinking outside the box"... and all that bull, yet it seems that it is only valid when you get it right... Well, the whole point of taking a risk is that it can go wrong, so they were way too harsh on Felipe IMO.
I think the simplest answer is getting out a measuring tape, the item they handed in was not 150cm as instructed. Now if they had built it in the back of the car on the way to the boardroom, then it probably would've been acceptable, a fantastic idea, and they would've crushed the other team. We'd all be saying what a genius move it was by Felipe, and Daniel would be trying to take credit for it.
I think they found the loophole but forgot to exploit it by actually making the product what it should've been to fit the specs.
I think the simplest answer is getting out a measuring tape, the item they handed in was not 150cm as instructed. Now if they had built it in the back of the car on the way to the boardroom, then it probably would've been acceptable, a fantastic idea, and they would've crushed the other team. We'd all be saying what a genius move it was by Felipe, and Daniel would be trying to take credit for it.
I think they found the loophole but forgot to exploit it by actually making the product what it should've been to fit the specs.
Exactly that.
It was not a question of the material that it was made of, but a question of being presentable in the form that it was requested (anatomical rigid framework of the human body).
As you said, had they built it, they would have been applauded. However I recall the guy at the shop saying "it would take a few god hours to build it". Building a skeleton from scratch is quite tricky under time constrains, it is very easy to make a mistake. Which leads me to the next question... if they had buillt it, would the producers check that it was properly built checking every single detail?
Must say, I kinda think that was one of those cases where it could've gone either way.
I can't help wondering if, perhaps, there's somebody on Sanjay's team who AS is keen on and if they'd bought a paper skeleton he'd have told them it was a marvelous idea and how, in business, you've always got to try and find loopholes to achieve your results with the lowest possible expense etc.
Must say, I kinda think that was one of those cases where it could've gone either way.
I can't help wondering if, perhaps, there's somebody on Sanjay's team who AS is keen on and if they'd bought a paper skeleton he'd have told them it was a marvelous idea and how, in business, you've always got to try and find loopholes to achieve your results with the lowest possible expense etc.
Well no one can DISprove that. But I am genuinely curious. Did people really sit through last night's Apprentice thinking, "ooh, I bet Lord Sugar is going to be impressed by that!" - ? Because I certainly didn't. I was all but shouting at my television - "No! You fools! He'll go mad!" I literally can't imagine him saying, "How clever of you to think of a flat-pack paper skeleton! Well done!" Can anyone?
"Lord Sugar, I have under my skin and soft tissue a completely-assembled, anatomically-correct, full size skeleton in perfect working order. That's what it said in the instructions so you can't fine me for it. I win, you lose, high fives all round.... Lord Sugar? But... Lord Sugar... well, thank you for the opportunity.
Well no one can DISprove that. But I am genuinely curious. Did people really sit through last night's Apprentice thinking, "ooh, I bet Lord Sugar is going to be impressed by that!" - ? Because I certainly didn't. I was all but shouting at my television - "No! You fools! He'll go mad!" I literally can't imagine him saying, "How clever of you to think of a flat-pack paper skeleton! Well done!" Can anyone?
Well, yeah.
I wouldn't have written that I thought it could have gone either way if I didn't think that, under different circumstances, he might've accepted it.
One was plastic, one was paper.
Surely either both are acceptable (and both fulfilled the vague remit) or neither are.
Yes, and I do agree that if they had brought in the paper one nicely put together it would have been hard for him to dispute it. But they didn't. If they other team had brought in a tea chest full of plastic bones and a coil of wire they would have got the same reception.
Series 1 winner - graduate
Series 2 winner - non graduate, difficult background, rose through the ranks
Series 3 winner - privately educated, Cambridge graduate
Series 4 winner - non graduate, BTEC
Series 5 winner - non graduate
Series 6 winner - non graduate, worked for Japanese bank
Series 7 winner - privately educated, 1st class degree from Bath
Series 8 winner - graduate from Cardiff
Series 9 winner - graduate and doctor
So out of nine series five winners are educated to degree level, which goes against your perception of the choices he makes.
Thanks for doing your research
I was going to contest the posts about him disliking intellectuals but don't need to now you've blown that argument out of the water
For all of his faults, and there are many, being an inverted snob about intelligence isn't one of them.
He praises intelligence time after time after time.
Just seen yesterday's episode and haven't posted in this thread before but have to say that I was unpleasantly surprised about this outcome.
I honestly expected him to say something along the lines of 'you cheeky little bastards. That wasn't what I meant at all but the description wasn't specific enough so I'll have to let you have it'
I lost a lot of respect for him failing to see the ingenuity in what Felipe did and don't get me started on the f'whittery of that fine.
Well no one can DISprove that. But I am genuinely curious. Did people really sit through last night's Apprentice thinking, "ooh, I bet Lord Sugar is going to be impressed by that!" - ? Because I certainly didn't. I was all but shouting at my television - "No! You fools! He'll go mad!" I literally can't imagine him saying, "How clever of you to think of a flat-pack paper skeleton! Well done!" Can anyone?
Agree . I knew straight away they made a massive costly mistake . Didn't Daniel also say he was worried about their decision .
I just don't understand some thinking that a paper package in a box = a skeleton .
Well no one can DISprove that. But I am genuinely curious. Did people really sit through last night's Apprentice thinking, "ooh, I bet Lord Sugar is going to be impressed by that!" - ? Because I certainly didn't. I was all but shouting at my television - "No! You fools! He'll go mad!" I literally can't imagine him saying, "How clever of you to think of a flat-pack paper skeleton! Well done!" Can anyone?
No, I didn't expect him to be impressed with what they'd bought. But I did honestly expect him to humorously congratulate them on following the brief and pulling off a smart trick to win. I thought he'd maybe ask Nick if the skeleton matched the requirements printed, then ruefully say something like.."we'll have to be more specific in future won't we".
But it didnt go that way, he said to Daniel..."you thought you were being clever, didn't you ?". To which Daniel replied quite reasonably.."yes Lord Sugar". He just didn't like the idea that anyone would try to outsmart him, it bruised his ego. To me, and I think many others, Sugar's reaction appeared to be sour grapes. Especially plucking out of the air an amount that insured they lost the whole task.
No, I didn't expect him to be impressed with what they'd bought. But I did honestly expect him to humorously congratulate them on following the brief and pulling off a smart trick to win. I thought he'd maybe ask Nick if the skeleton matched the requirements printed, then ruefully say something like.."we'll have to be more specific in future won't we".
But it didnt go that way, he said to Daniel..."you thought you were being clever, didn't you ?". To which Daniel replied quite reasonably.."yes Lord Sugar". He just didn't like the idea that anyone would try to outsmart him, it bruised his ego. To me, and I think many others, Sugar's reaction appeared to be sour grapes. Especially plucking out of the air an amount that insured they lost the whole task.
They did NOT follow the brief and got it completely wrong . The brief asked for an Anatomical Skeleton.
As another poster pointed out :
Skeleton : The bones of a human or an animal considered as a whole, together forming the framework of the body.
2.
any of various structures forming a rigid framework in an invertebrate.
How can a flatback thing in a box comply with the brief , when a skeleton is defined as above ?
No good Philipe trying to be clever when he got it completely wrong .
Well no one can DISprove that. But I am genuinely curious. Did people really sit through last night's Apprentice thinking, "ooh, I bet Lord Sugar is going to be impressed by that!" - ? Because I certainly didn't. I was all but shouting at my television - "No! You fools! He'll go mad!" I literally can't imagine him saying, "How clever of you to think of a flat-pack paper skeleton! Well done!" Can anyone?
I live alone, and I did say out loud, "There's NO WAY he'll accept that!" It was also clear to me that Mark suspected as much, and that he was hoping a little that that half of the team had just thrown themselves under a bus. It's part of his M.O.
I'm a little surprised that the majority of viewers, here and on twitter think this was a genius move, and that Felipe should have been rewarded for thinking outside the box. The consensus of opinion seems to be that Felipe outsmarted Lord Sugar, but I don't see it that way at all. It's an interesting conundrum though, and I've enjoyed discussing it.
I live alone, and I did say out loud, "There's NO WAY he'll accept that!" It was also clear to me that Mark suspected as much, and that he was hoping a little that that half of the team had just thrown themselves under a bus. It's part of his M.O.
I'm a little surprised that the majority of viewers, here and on twitter think this was a genius move, and that Felipe should have been rewarded for thinking outside the box. The consensus of opinion seems to be that Felipe outsmarted Lord Sugar, but I don't see it that way at all. It's an interesting conundrum though, and I've enjoyed discussing it.
It will be interesting to see what the consensus of opinion on this one is in a couple of years' time. There are certain things that people seem to feel a certain way about at one time, and then later the group opinion completely changes. I'm thinking about people's reactions to Jane's early firing in Series 8 - a lot of people here thought she was great and it was a travesty that she went so early (personally I never liked her) but in the recent 'All time candidates ranking' game she came out pretty low. Something similar may happen here.
I think if it had been assembled they would have had more of a point but essentially it was wrong. If I asked someone to get me a good deal on a £200 bottle of wine and they buy some cheap fizz, they haven't got what I wanted. The idea is that they start with the guide price and knock it down; it would be unfair to the other team because it's not like for like.
Is that strictly true though ? It's never made clear who they are supposed to be buying for, and what purpose the items are going to be used for. An impecunious medical student looking for a life-size skeleton to study might be happy to construct the paper model and put it against his wall..it would also save him more than £200.
As others have mentioned, the cheap sink brought back might be totally useless to some well-heeled young couple trying to make a statement in their designer kitchen.
We don't even know the true value of the diamond, everyone is just taking it for granted that the dealer dropped the price down to £50 because he was overcome with lust for a pretty blonde. It might have been totally inferior to the other diamond, from my experience, dealers in Hatton Garden aren't generally that stupid.
Aren't they buying for Lord Sugar? Nobody anywhere has said that they should have been buying with a poor med student in mind. For all the pedantic arguments and second-guessing, the simple fact is the customer wasn't happy (for whatever reason we all choose to assume as fact). And allowing a contestant to bend the rules once sets an example to follow for contestants on all future tasks. If people think the show is a farce now, what would it be like then with people trying to exploit every loophole they can find?
I feel sorry for Felipe. He was a nice guy. He wasn't the worst candidate remaining. But equally he was never going to win. And his social enterprise business plan did not seem to be a remotely investable proposition in the context of this show (where's Sugar going to get a return on his £250k?) He gambled, he lost.
As I've said - and this isn't hindsight talking, I said the same thing the moment I watched the episode last weekend - if it had been me, 20 years of business experience tells me that buying a paper skeleton for a customer who notoriously does not like smart-arses was far more likely to backfire than earn me praise.
I lived the initiative and wish LA had given them credit for it, but even if they'd made up the skeleton it wouldn't have been anatomically correct as they cards were only 2D whereas the plastic skeletons are presumably replicas of bones in all dimensions.
So for me they miss out on the anatomically correct.
Comments
Interesting. There is a lot of conversation on Twitter with people who have bought things from Apprentice candidates (this is where a lot of the spoilers come from, people upload photos). To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever said anything about being refunded. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't, but I think with the number of customers that have been involved over the years this would have come out somewhere. If you really want to know for certain, it wouldn't be too difficult to ask them. The links to lots of the photos have been posted in the spoilers thread, you could tweet the people and ask if they were refunded, and then we'd all know for sure. In the meantime though, I'm going to continue to assume that they are not, because I really don't think they need to be (and the evidence points to that).
I'm with Joel_B here. It was just terribly poor psychology; A better player would have realized that Felipe and AS were not rivals trying to out-smart each other; in the Apprentice, AS is God; if you can't accept that, you obviously fall at the first hurdle. All I can say is that I would have been astonished if AS had congratulated him on his shrewd move re. the skeleton. If I had been Mark and Katie, I would have had a fit, then sprinted out at maximum speed to find a skeleton that was more than a pile of paper shapes in a packet.
It is therefore a necessary condition for a skeleton to be a skeleton that is already built, as it is defines "the rigid framework of the body".
Then therefore, it should not be accepted.
Having said that, I applaud Felipe´s audacity to think outside the box and for taking the gamble. It is ironic how The Apprentice on one side tries to encourage "risk taking" "gambles", "thinking outside the box"... and all that bull, yet it seems that it is only valid when you get it right... Well, the whole point of taking a risk is that it can go wrong, so they were way too harsh on Felipe IMO.
Then neither should the other team's.
Why?
They brough it in a anatomical skeleton. which is what the brief stated.
I think the simplest answer is getting out a measuring tape, the item they handed in was not 150cm as instructed. Now if they had built it in the back of the car on the way to the boardroom, then it probably would've been acceptable, a fantastic idea, and they would've crushed the other team. We'd all be saying what a genius move it was by Felipe, and Daniel would be trying to take credit for it.
I think they found the loophole but forgot to exploit it by actually making the product what it should've been to fit the specs.
Exactly that.
It was not a question of the material that it was made of, but a question of being presentable in the form that it was requested (anatomical rigid framework of the human body).
As you said, had they built it, they would have been applauded. However I recall the guy at the shop saying "it would take a few god hours to build it". Building a skeleton from scratch is quite tricky under time constrains, it is very easy to make a mistake. Which leads me to the next question... if they had buillt it, would the producers check that it was properly built checking every single detail?
I can't help wondering if, perhaps, there's somebody on Sanjay's team who AS is keen on and if they'd bought a paper skeleton he'd have told them it was a marvelous idea and how, in business, you've always got to try and find loopholes to achieve your results with the lowest possible expense etc.
Well no one can DISprove that. But I am genuinely curious. Did people really sit through last night's Apprentice thinking, "ooh, I bet Lord Sugar is going to be impressed by that!" - ? Because I certainly didn't. I was all but shouting at my television - "No! You fools! He'll go mad!" I literally can't imagine him saying, "How clever of you to think of a flat-pack paper skeleton! Well done!" Can anyone?
What a fantastic post.
Well, yeah.
I wouldn't have written that I thought it could have gone either way if I didn't think that, under different circumstances, he might've accepted it.
One was plastic, one was paper.
Surely either both are acceptable (and both fulfilled the vague remit) or neither are.
Well, no. One was a skeleton and the other was a paper bag.
Yes, and I do agree that if they had brought in the paper one nicely put together it would have been hard for him to dispute it. But they didn't. If they other team had brought in a tea chest full of plastic bones and a coil of wire they would have got the same reception.
I was going to contest the posts about him disliking intellectuals but don't need to now you've blown that argument out of the water
For all of his faults, and there are many, being an inverted snob about intelligence isn't one of them.
He praises intelligence time after time after time.
Just seen yesterday's episode and haven't posted in this thread before but have to say that I was unpleasantly surprised about this outcome.
I honestly expected him to say something along the lines of 'you cheeky little bastards. That wasn't what I meant at all but the description wasn't specific enough so I'll have to let you have it'
I lost a lot of respect for him failing to see the ingenuity in what Felipe did and don't get me started on the f'whittery of that fine.
Agree . I knew straight away they made a massive costly mistake . Didn't Daniel also say he was worried about their decision .
I just don't understand some thinking that a paper package in a box = a skeleton .
I'm saying that the brief was open to interpretation and shouldn't have been.
As a businessman, Lord Sugar knows more than most that 'the devil is in the detail' and not nailing a spec to the letter is incompetent.
No, I didn't expect him to be impressed with what they'd bought. But I did honestly expect him to humorously congratulate them on following the brief and pulling off a smart trick to win. I thought he'd maybe ask Nick if the skeleton matched the requirements printed, then ruefully say something like.."we'll have to be more specific in future won't we".
But it didnt go that way, he said to Daniel..."you thought you were being clever, didn't you ?". To which Daniel replied quite reasonably.."yes Lord Sugar". He just didn't like the idea that anyone would try to outsmart him, it bruised his ego. To me, and I think many others, Sugar's reaction appeared to be sour grapes. Especially plucking out of the air an amount that insured they lost the whole task.
They did NOT follow the brief and got it completely wrong . The brief asked for an Anatomical Skeleton.
As another poster pointed out :
Skeleton : The bones of a human or an animal considered as a whole, together forming the framework of the body.
2.
any of various structures forming a rigid framework in an invertebrate.
How can a flatback thing in a box comply with the brief , when a skeleton is defined as above ?
No good Philipe trying to be clever when he got it completely wrong .
I live alone, and I did say out loud, "There's NO WAY he'll accept that!" It was also clear to me that Mark suspected as much, and that he was hoping a little that that half of the team had just thrown themselves under a bus. It's part of his M.O.
I'm a little surprised that the majority of viewers, here and on twitter think this was a genius move, and that Felipe should have been rewarded for thinking outside the box. The consensus of opinion seems to be that Felipe outsmarted Lord Sugar, but I don't see it that way at all. It's an interesting conundrum though, and I've enjoyed discussing it.
It will be interesting to see what the consensus of opinion on this one is in a couple of years' time. There are certain things that people seem to feel a certain way about at one time, and then later the group opinion completely changes. I'm thinking about people's reactions to Jane's early firing in Series 8 - a lot of people here thought she was great and it was a travesty that she went so early (personally I never liked her) but in the recent 'All time candidates ranking' game she came out pretty low. Something similar may happen here.
I feel sorry for Felipe. He was a nice guy. He wasn't the worst candidate remaining. But equally he was never going to win. And his social enterprise business plan did not seem to be a remotely investable proposition in the context of this show (where's Sugar going to get a return on his £250k?) He gambled, he lost.
As I've said - and this isn't hindsight talking, I said the same thing the moment I watched the episode last weekend - if it had been me, 20 years of business experience tells me that buying a paper skeleton for a customer who notoriously does not like smart-arses was far more likely to backfire than earn me praise.
I lived the initiative and wish LA had given them credit for it, but even if they'd made up the skeleton it wouldn't have been anatomically correct as they cards were only 2D whereas the plastic skeletons are presumably replicas of bones in all dimensions.
So for me they miss out on the anatomically correct.
It's a shame because I thought it was genius.