I thought it was quite a healthy debate really. I didn't see much destroying. I think the difference is Charlie has taken an emotional view of which she is entitled. And I don't say that to put her down in any way.. but she said so herself at the start.. she has experience of sexual abuse. So for her his crime has a different impact than it perhaps does for Portillo who is viewing things purely from a third party perspective.. ie.. pointing out the justice system has been followed and any further punishment is perhaps not appropriate.. especially not when driven by twitter outrage.
I did laugh at Alan Johnson taken to task over Barton. Come on AJ.. should have held your hands up at that point and said "fair point".
Maybe there is one thing this case will finally start to do once and for all...and that's stop the idiotic mantra that professional sportspeople (and footballers in particular) are any kind of "role model" either self appointed or media promoted to such an appellation.
I think to grown ups the whole role model thing doesn't make sense but I do agree that kids view sports people as role models.. ie.. they grow up wanting to be that person. Be it Beckham, Scholes, Ronaldo. You always hear it. They grow out of it eventually of course. I think Portillos point was the system has done it's job in that respect.. said role model did something wrong, and has been punished for it. Had he gotten away with it because he's a footballer then they'd have a much bigger issue of course. But he didn't.
Its certainly not black and white. For someone who is a teacher, youth worker, social worker etc, they would not get their job back if they had a rape conviction.
Is that being punished twice or just recognition that if you are in the position of working closely with either young people or the vulnerable, you may pose a risk to them if you have a sex offence on your record?
On the other hand footballers are seen as role models by young boys, hero worshipped (which I disagree with) and the football culture tends toward quite 'macho' behaviour. Would his reinstatement in any team, simply encourage that, or give the message that attacks on women are ok?
Saying that, I am not convinced by the conviction and feel very uneasy about whether this was rape or not.
my bad with the thread title. it was an item on the Andrew Neil show AFTER QT on Thursday. I don't think I can change the thread title now.
One of the problems with all this of course is that they are now fast tracking a review. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't quash the conviction as unsafe, and then the guy will have spent 2.5 years in jail for nothing.
I think Michael Buerk and Judy Finnigan both had it about right with their comments, but they got slammed for expressing opinions as well.
Fair comment is only permitted on line under a nom-de-plume, I think.
Personally I don't see the issue as black and white. Just because you've served a prison sentence it doesn't mean that the repercussions of your actions have ended or that people can't take them into account when judging your suitability for certain roles. I strongly agree with Portillo that people shouldn't face public persecution on an ad-hoc basis depending on how much the media or social media dislikes you; however entertainment and sports industries should be able to take the popularity of people into account when deciding whether to hire them.
I have not seen the programme (yet). But on the strength of several posts in this thread, I have already decided that I would like to see DS forum member blueisthe colour debate the topic with Portillo.
That does not mean I have taken a side (yet) - I agree that the issue is not black and white.
But let's assume for a moment that Portillo is correct. That a person convicted of a serious offence can return to a very public role after serving his sentence.
Don't you understand what this means......?
It means that your Dvd Box Set: "Animal Hospital - The Complete Collection" may have an inaccurate title.
That's a shame as your opening synopsis was good, if incomplete.
The point Portillo was trying to get across to Webster who is demanding Evans apologise for raping the woman is that Evans says he is innocent and is pursuing an appeal. As Portillo pointed out if you are pursuing an appeal you don't hold up your hands and say sorry for the crime which I am appealing against. He illustrated it with the case of the Birmingham Six but it appears Webster did not know who they were
That's a shame as your opening synopsis was good, if incomplete.
The point Portillo was trying to get across to Webster who is demanding Evans apologise for raping the woman is that Evans says he is innocent and is pursuing an appeal. As Portillo pointed out if you are pursuing an appeal you don't hold up your hands and say sorry for the crime which I am appealing against. He illustrated it with the case of the Birmingham Six but it appears Webster did not know who they were
One of the key arguments against the death penalty (apologies for being off topic)
As well as his judicial punishment his football career has suffered anyway.
I saw Lee Hughes play after he'd been jailed for killing someone whilst drink driving - he was clearly playing at least one division below where his talent would normally have allowed.
By all means don't watch teams who play players you disapprove of, be it Lee Hughes, Paolo Di Canio or Lee Bowyer. Then the club can make a commercial decision whether to employ such people.
But it shouldn't be a regulatory matter outside of professions like teaching etc.
Ched Evans is an ex Sheffield United footballer who was convicted of rape and sent to prison for 2.5 years. He has recently been released and continues to profess his innocence.There's now talk about him returning to play football at the club.
Charlie Webster is some sort of patron at Sheffield and was arguing that a convicted rapist should not be playing professional football as they are role models for the millions of young men that watch football. Portillo was arguing that once you have served your punishment for your crime you should have a clean slate and be able to pick up your life from where you started. Webster stated that she is a strong supporter of rehabilitation and people having a second chance however pointed out that there are certain jobs (teacher/doctor) that a rape conviction would automatically bar you from for life and football should be one of them. Alan Johnson agreed, Portillo stuck to the (imo admirable) principle that once you've done your time you shouldn't be punished again.
Personally I don't she the issue as black and white. Just because you've served a prison sentence it doesn't mean that the repercussions of your actions have ended or that people can't take them into account when judging your suitability for certain roles. I strongly agree with Portillo that people shouldn't face public persecution on an ad-hoc basis depending on how much the media or social media dislikes you; however entertainment and sports industries should be able to take the popularity of people into account when deciding whether to hire them.
Portillo is making the same mistake many Ched Evans supporters are making
Presuming that once a sentence is served, everything about the perpetrator is reset to zero
It isn't. He's still a rapist, and does not have a clean slate.
With lobby groups you just don't get justice, you get either vengeance or it's a personal matter. In the case of Charlie Webster clearly both...
.
She was also featured on the BBC Radio 4 programme, Moral Maze. Well worth a listen to on RadioPlayer. I was quite shocked by her unrelenting viciousness. Portillo seems to get better every time I hear him on TV or radio.
Portillo is making the same mistake many Ched Evans supporters are making
Presuming that once a sentence is served, everything about the perpetrator is reset to zero
It isn't. He's still a rapist, and does not have a clean slate.
And you are making the mistake of ignoring the fact that Evans says he is innocent and is launching an appeal and that is why he will not say sorry. This was the point Portillo was making but which you don't seem to think is relevant for some bizarre reason
And you are making the mistake of ignoring the fact that Evans says he is innocent and is launching an appeal and that is why he will not say sorry. This was the point Portillo was making but which you don't seem to think is relevant for some bizarre reason
This is why it is such a grey area. There are two scenarios I can think of:
1. He is innocent and there has been a miscarriage of justice, in which case his conviction will be annulled and he will be allowed to continue playing football
2. He is guilty, but doesn't think that what he did was a crime, even though he has been convicted by a jury and been give a prison sentence. Therefore he does not accept responsibility for his crime, is showing no remorse and it would be difficult to see him playing football again.
If his conviction is upheld, then he needs to accept the verdict and learn why what he did was wrong and how it has affected the victim. If he shows remorse and that he understands the crime he committed was wrong, then there is no reason why he should not play again, although after being away from the game for so long, it would probably be at a lower level.
This is why it is such a grey area. There are two scenarios I can think of:
1. He is innocent and there has been a miscarriage of justice, in which case his conviction will be annulled and he will be allowed to continue playing football
2. He is guilty, but doesn't think that what he did was a crime, even though he has been convicted by a jury and been give a prison sentence. Therefore he does not accept responsibility for his crime, is showing no remorse and it would be difficult to see him playing football again.
If his conviction is upheld, then he needs to accept the verdict and learn why what he did was wrong and how it has affected the victim. If he shows remorse and that he understands the crime he committed was wrong, then there is no reason why he should not play again, although after being away from the game for so long, it would probably be at a lower level.
Pretty much* agree with that, now if you could explain that to Webster woman that would be a great help
(Portillo tried and failed even though he was very circumspect)
*(We won't bother with the he is innocent but his appeal is unsuccessful scenario - Birmingham six again .... )
This is why it is such a grey area. There are two scenarios I can think of:
1. He is innocent and there has been a miscarriage of justice, in which case his conviction will be annulled and he will be allowed to continue playing football
2. He is guilty, but doesn't think that what he did was a crime, even though he has been convicted by a jury and been give a prison sentence. Therefore he does not accept responsibility for his crime, is showing no remorse and it would be difficult to see him playing football again.
If his conviction is upheld, then he needs to accept the verdict and learn why what he did was wrong and how it has affected the victim. If he shows remorse and that he understands the crime he committed was wrong, then there is no reason why he should not play again, although after being away from the game for so long, it would probably be at a lower level.
Ched Evans is an ex Sheffield United footballer who was convicted of rape and sent to prison for 2.5 years. He has recently been released and continues to profess his innocence.There's now talk about him returning to play football at the club.
Wrong. He was given a 5 year sentence. They let him out after 2.5 years.
Evans' s problem is that he is not suitable for any other profession.
The idea that they will ever go back to those careers is ludicrous, in fact we take a 1984 style approach of systematically erasing them from broadcast and music history.
There are plenty of musicians with dodgy pasts however, including murder. Have Phil Spector's records been erased from history for example.
Bizarrely, today, to many people, killing someone doesn't appear to be a crime to get too outraged about.
The football authorities should formally list what types of crimes it considers 'brings the game into disrepute' and the associated actions. Committing a rape whilst being a footballer should be an automatic ban from the professional game.
On the other hand footballers are seen as role models by young boys, hero worshipped (which I disagree with) and the football culture tends toward quite 'macho' behaviour. Would his reinstatement in any team, simply encourage that, or give the message that attacks on women are ok?
I think most people understand right from wrong and find the whole they are role models argument quite patronising. Young kids tend to ape the on field behaviour rather than the off field stuff.
Presumably Portillo was on the side of he's done the time.
I agree he has 'done his time' but it is not a 'right' to play for Sheffield United. It isn't just about footballing skill but also party being a 'role model'. Perhaps they don't want to be associated with a convicted rapist especially one so unrepentant as Mr Evans appears to be.
I came across an article in the daily mail claiming that him / his family recently published a video, on his website, of the victim , claiming she was so drunk she deserved it. I know the daily mail isn't the most accurate of sources, so I stand to be corrected. But if any of that is true.... Then I really don't think he should be playing for Sheffield United.
On the other hand I do believe it is important for former criminals to be reintegrated into society. And am not one who thinks a criminal record should be a barrier to employment. So if he wants to get a job stacking selves in a supermarket I would in favour of that:)
She was raped as a teenager. So you can understand why she doesn't want Evans there.
She wasn't raped.
She says that she was sexually assaulted at 15 but didn't report it at the time. The man she accuses of assaulting her was sentenced to 10 years for assaulting a younger girl who did report it to the police.
Webster stated that she is a strong supporter of rehabilitation and people having a second chance however pointed out that there are certain jobs (teacher/doctor) that a rape conviction would automatically bar you from for life and football should be one of them.
I don't buy this argument. Teachers and doctors are in a position of responsibility and have direct contact with vulnerable people.
Maybe there is one thing this case will finally start to do once and for all...and that's stop the idiotic mantra that professional sportspeople (and footballers in particular) are any kind of "role model" either self appointed or media promoted to such an appellation.
Role models are those around us every day...those who work hard, pay their dues, keep their noses clean, treat others with respect and are there to shape and influence future generations by example and direct influence and guidance...not running round a pitch for ninety minutes or a track for forty seconds on the telly.
I agree he has 'done his time' but it is not a 'right' to play for Sheffield United. It isn't just about footballing skill but also party being a 'role model'. Perhaps they don't want to be associated with a convicted rapist especially one so unrepentant as Mr Evans appears to be.
Are you aware that Sheffield United paid him £20,000 a week throughout his time in prison ? That's hardly keeping your distance is it ?
I find Webster is being rather Hypocritical on the subject. She's running around the place bleating about Evans but last year Sheffield United signed Marlon King and I don't remember her going around shouting that she was quitting her patronage of the club
King's rap sheet...
Assault on a team mate (Dean Saunders)
Receiving Stolen Goods
Theft from a person
Criminal Damage
Trying to obtain property from deception
Fraudulent Use of vehicle licence documentation
driving with out insurance
Speeding
Drink Driving
wounding a player
Assault on women
Assault on a Police officer
Assault of woman causing her to be hospitalized
Sexual Assault
ABH
Hit and run
Comments
I did laugh at Alan Johnson taken to task over Barton. Come on AJ.. should have held your hands up at that point and said "fair point".
I think to grown ups the whole role model thing doesn't make sense but I do agree that kids view sports people as role models.. ie.. they grow up wanting to be that person. Be it Beckham, Scholes, Ronaldo. You always hear it. They grow out of it eventually of course. I think Portillos point was the system has done it's job in that respect.. said role model did something wrong, and has been punished for it. Had he gotten away with it because he's a footballer then they'd have a much bigger issue of course. But he didn't.
Is that being punished twice or just recognition that if you are in the position of working closely with either young people or the vulnerable, you may pose a risk to them if you have a sex offence on your record?
On the other hand footballers are seen as role models by young boys, hero worshipped (which I disagree with) and the football culture tends toward quite 'macho' behaviour. Would his reinstatement in any team, simply encourage that, or give the message that attacks on women are ok?
Saying that, I am not convinced by the conviction and feel very uneasy about whether this was rape or not.
One of the problems with all this of course is that they are now fast tracking a review. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't quash the conviction as unsafe, and then the guy will have spent 2.5 years in jail for nothing.
I think Michael Buerk and Judy Finnigan both had it about right with their comments, but they got slammed for expressing opinions as well.
Fair comment is only permitted on line under a nom-de-plume, I think.
I have not seen the programme (yet). But on the strength of several posts in this thread, I have already decided that I would like to see DS forum member blueisthe colour debate the topic with Portillo.
That does not mean I have taken a side (yet) - I agree that the issue is not black and white.
But let's assume for a moment that Portillo is correct. That a person convicted of a serious offence can return to a very public role after serving his sentence.
Don't you understand what this means......?
It means that your Dvd Box Set: "Animal Hospital - The Complete Collection" may have an inaccurate title.
That's a shame as your opening synopsis was good, if incomplete.
The point Portillo was trying to get across to Webster who is demanding Evans apologise for raping the woman is that Evans says he is innocent and is pursuing an appeal. As Portillo pointed out if you are pursuing an appeal you don't hold up your hands and say sorry for the crime which I am appealing against. He illustrated it with the case of the Birmingham Six but it appears Webster did not know who they were
I saw Lee Hughes play after he'd been jailed for killing someone whilst drink driving - he was clearly playing at least one division below where his talent would normally have allowed.
By all means don't watch teams who play players you disapprove of, be it Lee Hughes, Paolo Di Canio or Lee Bowyer. Then the club can make a commercial decision whether to employ such people.
But it shouldn't be a regulatory matter outside of professions like teaching etc.
Portillo is making the same mistake many Ched Evans supporters are making
Presuming that once a sentence is served, everything about the perpetrator is reset to zero
It isn't. He's still a rapist, and does not have a clean slate.
She was also featured on the BBC Radio 4 programme, Moral Maze. Well worth a listen to on RadioPlayer. I was quite shocked by her unrelenting viciousness. Portillo seems to get better every time I hear him on TV or radio.
And you are making the mistake of ignoring the fact that Evans says he is innocent and is launching an appeal and that is why he will not say sorry. This was the point Portillo was making but which you don't seem to think is relevant for some bizarre reason
1. He is innocent and there has been a miscarriage of justice, in which case his conviction will be annulled and he will be allowed to continue playing football
2. He is guilty, but doesn't think that what he did was a crime, even though he has been convicted by a jury and been give a prison sentence. Therefore he does not accept responsibility for his crime, is showing no remorse and it would be difficult to see him playing football again.
If his conviction is upheld, then he needs to accept the verdict and learn why what he did was wrong and how it has affected the victim. If he shows remorse and that he understands the crime he committed was wrong, then there is no reason why he should not play again, although after being away from the game for so long, it would probably be at a lower level.
Pretty much* agree with that, now if you could explain that to Webster woman that would be a great help
(Portillo tried and failed even though he was very circumspect)
*(We won't bother with the he is innocent but his appeal is unsuccessful scenario - Birmingham six again .... )
Where are all the protests about them?
Having said that he's recently been banned from entering the country.
Wrong. He was given a 5 year sentence. They let him out after 2.5 years.
Evans' s problem is that he is not suitable for any other profession.
There are plenty of musicians with dodgy pasts however, including murder. Have Phil Spector's records been erased from history for example.
Bizarrely, today, to many people, killing someone doesn't appear to be a crime to get too outraged about.
Why? What is the relevance to the profession?
I think most people understand right from wrong and find the whole they are role models argument quite patronising. Young kids tend to ape the on field behaviour rather than the off field stuff.
I agree he has 'done his time' but it is not a 'right' to play for Sheffield United. It isn't just about footballing skill but also party being a 'role model'. Perhaps they don't want to be associated with a convicted rapist especially one so unrepentant as Mr Evans appears to be.
I came across an article in the daily mail claiming that him / his family recently published a video, on his website, of the victim , claiming she was so drunk she deserved it. I know the daily mail isn't the most accurate of sources, so I stand to be corrected. But if any of that is true.... Then I really don't think he should be playing for Sheffield United.
On the other hand I do believe it is important for former criminals to be reintegrated into society. And am not one who thinks a criminal record should be a barrier to employment. So if he wants to get a job stacking selves in a supermarket I would in favour of that:)
She wasn't raped.
She says that she was sexually assaulted at 15 but didn't report it at the time. The man she accuses of assaulting her was sentenced to 10 years for assaulting a younger girl who did report it to the police.
I don't buy this argument. Teachers and doctors are in a position of responsibility and have direct contact with vulnerable people.
A footballer kicks a ball around a pitch.
Exactly!
Are you aware that Sheffield United paid him £20,000 a week throughout his time in prison ? That's hardly keeping your distance is it ?
I never knew that he was paid while in jail Is football the only profession where that would happen?
King's rap sheet...
Assault on a team mate (Dean Saunders)
Receiving Stolen Goods
Theft from a person
Criminal Damage
Trying to obtain property from deception
Fraudulent Use of vehicle licence documentation
driving with out insurance
Speeding
Drink Driving
wounding a player
Assault on women
Assault on a Police officer
Assault of woman causing her to be hospitalized
Sexual Assault
ABH
Hit and run