I just want to start this thread off by saying that in its first seven seasons, Frasier was one of the most cleverest, wittiest and entertaining sitcoms out there. However once Niles and Daphne get together by the end of season 7, the tone and the atmosphere of the show becomes a lot darker. While Martin, Frasier and Roz are still very good characters, Niles and Daphne just change for the worse.
Daphne in particular, becomes quite unpleasant and nasty to the rest of the characters. Miles away from the kooky, eccentric and quirky Manc she was in the early seasons.
While the show never gets as bad as Cheers and Friends in its later seasons, it is a massive shame that Frasier declines so rapidly when Niles and Daphne get together, as it should of been a turning point for the show in a good way.
Feel free to express your love or hate of Frasier in this thread!
I love Frasier and have got all the 'earlier' box sets. I went right off it though when Niles and Daphne got together, and her bloody awful family. I didn't really get Martin and Ronnie either. But before all that it was one of the best things on TV. My favourite episode has to be The Ski Lodge.
I loved Fraiser but I haven't watched it for years, it was on a lot and I think I got a bit fed up of seeing the same episodes again and again (like the exclusive spa episode, brilliant episode but there' only so many times I can watch it). I might have to watch it again though after reading this thread.
I agree that the show lost something after Niles and Daphne finally got together. I also thought the way they wrote Daphne out for the actresses' pregnancy was stupid.
I am now at the end of season 8 and have to admit, i haven't enjoyed season 8 at all.
Some of the show's charm went away. Can't re call any episodes I would happily go back and rewatch again.
Maybe season 9, 10 and 11 will be better
I haven't enjoyed the whole Frasier/Claire/Lana triangle that dragged out the last 4 episodes of season 8 and what looks like will be continued in season 9.
Best parts are when the brothers are together trying to social climb
Frasier: This is my brother, Dr Niles Crane - the eminent psychiatrist.
Niles: My brother is too kind - he was already eminent while my eminence was merely imminent.
I just want to start this thread off by saying that in its first seven seasons, Frasier was one of the most cleverest, wittiest and entertaining sitcoms out there. However once Niles and Daphne get together by the end of season 7, the tone and the atmosphere of the show becomes a lot darker. While Martin, Frasier and Roz are still very good characters, Niles and Daphne just change for the worse.
Daphne in particular, becomes quite unpleasant and nasty to the rest of the characters. Miles away from the kooky, eccentric and quirky Manc she was in the early seasons.
While the show never gets as bad as Cheers and Friends in its later seasons, it is a massive shame that Frasier declines so rapidly when Niles and Daphne get together, as it should of been a turning point for the show in a good way.
Feel free to express your love or hate of Frasier in this thread!
While there was an undeniable decline after the wonderful Season 7 finale (and the departure of the show's best writers Christopher Lloyd and Joe Keenan), Seasons 8, 9 and 10 were nothing like as bad as some make out. And Season 11 (when Lloyd and Keenan returned) was a glorious return to form; easily the equal of any of the first seven years, it ensured the show went out on a high. But there are also some gems in the show's so-called Bad years. Season 10's "Fathers and Sons" especially is one of the best and most poignant episodes the show ever produced. Roe To Perdition (also Season 10), Bla-Z-Boy (Season 9) and The Show Must Go Off (Season 8) are other stand-out eps.
I think you're right in asserting that Niles and Daphne getting together was not a turning point for the better (much as happened with Maddie and David in Moonlighting), but Jane Leeves' real life pregnancy during production of Season 8 hardly helped matters. And while Daphne definitely changed, I don't feel she became unpleasant or nasty to the other characters; it was just that she was a member of the family now, not just an employee. That was inevitably going to change the dynamic.
Interestingly, while Jane Leeves wasn't from Manchester, John Mahoney who played Martin was born in Blackpool after his family were evacuated from Manchester in World War II.
I hadn't really noticed what everyone is saying about Niles and Daphne
The only let down for me was that it turned into a farcical shows towards the end :( I'm not sure what series started it downfall but I really loved this show and that ruined it for me.
I loved Martin, very funny character But my dislike for Daphnes brother with the horrendous English accent made me mute him >:(
Frasier did farce better than any other sitcom. And it was doing farce throughout its run. The best ever episode - Ham Radio - for my money the funniest half-hour of television ever, was pure farce from start to finish. And that was Season 4. The Ski Lodge, another highpoint, was like a filmed stage farce and that was Season 5. The show didn't become farcical towards the end. Nor, I would submit, did its farces mark a decline. Quite the reverse.
Another one of my favourites is when Lileth's husband leaves her and she comes back to see Frasier, but ends up sleeping with Niles! And there's the one when Frasier and Niles buy the restaurant together and of course it's a disaster.
Best parts are when the brothers are together trying to social climb
Particularly the odd time when they get a comeuppance......I vaguely remember the episode where they find themselves in a common restaurant, maybe a steak house, and they're being very snooty about then discover it's Martin's favourite restaurant......
I thought Frasier's agent was a marvellous character......
The 'farce' episodes.........the Ski lodge, Niles and Lileth in the hotel,
The way that Frasier's son used to smirk at Niles while he was being hugged by Daphne..........:D
the episode where some ruffian was waiting to fight them out the coffee shop.......
My all time favorite show. Know every episode backwards (drives my wife mad).
Love "The Doctor Is Out" from the final season.
Alistair: The intensity, the heat, the desire! Can you feel it?
(pulls his body up to Frasier)
Frasier: Oh yes, there it is!
Sadly, the eps on Channel 4 in the mornings are cut, and that ep - one of my all-time favourites and another of Joe Keenan's gay farces, which began in Season 2 with The Matchmaker - has suffered more cuts than most. I've got the box set of course, and now have downloaded the entire series from iTunes.
Particularly the odd time when they get a comeuppance......I vaguely remember the episode where they find themselves in a common restaurant, maybe a steak house, and they're being very snooty about then discover it's Martin's favourite restaurant......
Incredibly, that was only the third ep in the entire run, but already the show was firing on all cylinders.
The show becomes a bit unwatchable after season 7. Daphne and Niles's relationships become too domineering, her cringe family and they clearly ran out of ideas for Martin, Roz and Frasier. Most of them time they didn't have a clue on what to do with Roz. Martin marrying Wendie Mallick's character seemed a bit out of nowhere. I wasn't fond of the finale at all. I didn't like how Fraiser's story came to an end. It did such a predictable series finale thing that has happened dozens of times. All the characters moving on to different paths in lives and having Frasier quit his job and move away. But for him to go after Laura Linney's character as the twist at the end after just few episodes of dating, as if he had found his soulmate. I just felt that was pushing it a bit for the character of Frasier. I would of rather had Frasier simply stay miserable and single or even reunite Lillth.
The death of David Angell (creator) in 9/11 was what killed the show for me. Losing the heart, soul and brains of the show can normally lead to a decline in any show.
The show becomes a bit unwatchable after season 7. Daphne and Niles's relationships become too domineering, her cringe family and they clearly ran out of ideas for Martin, Roz and Frasier. Most of them time they didn't have a clue on what to do with Roz. Martin marrying Wendie Mallick's character seemed a bit out of nowhere. I wasn't fond of the finale at all. I didn't like how Fraiser's story came to an end. It did such a predictable series finale thing that has happened dozens of times. All the characters moving on to different paths in lives and having Frasier quit his job and move away. But for him to go after Laura Linney's character as the twist at the end after just few episodes of dating, as if he had found his soulmate. I just felt that was pushing it a bit for the character of Frasier. I would of rather had Frasier simply stay miserable and single or even reunite Lillth.
The death of David Angell (creator) in 9/11 was what killed the show for me. Losing the heart, soul and brains of the show can normally lead to a decline in any show.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. First, David Angell was killed during production of Season 9, but most people argue that the rot - if indeed there was one - started in Season 8. By that time, the heart, soul and brains of the show as you put it were Christopher Lloyd and Joe Keenan (and with all respect to Mr. Angell, David Lloyd was just as important in the creation of Frasier and he was still around). They left at the end of Season 7, and it definitely shows. But they returned for the final season, Season 11. The general consensus is that Season 11 is as good as anything in the first 7 seasons.
Personally, I feel it's stronger than Seasons 1, 3 and 6. Only a handful of Frasier eps in the first 7 years are better than the glorious Caught In the Act ep near the end of the run. And I thought the finale was superb. Compared with the lacklustre finales of Friends and Will & Grace, Frasier went out with a real bang and, more importantly, left us wanting more.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. First, David Angell was killed during production of Season 9, but most people argue that the rot - if indeed there was one - started in Season 8. By that time, the heart, soul and brains of the show as you put it were Christopher Lloyd and Joe Keenan (and with all respect to Mr. Angell, David Lloyd was just as important in the creation of Frasier and he was still around). They left at the end of Season 7, and it definitely shows. But they returned for the final season, Season 11. The general consensus is that Season 11 is as good as anything in the first 7 seasons.
Personally, I feel it's stronger than Seasons 1, 3 and 6. Only a handful of Frasier eps in the first 7 years are better than the glorious Caught In the Act ep near the end of the run. And I thought the finale was superb. Compared with the lacklustre finales of Friends and Will & Grace, Frasier went out with a real bang and, more importantly, left us wanting more.
I am well aware he was killed during season 9. The decline for me became worse once he was out of the show. Just how i feel. It isn't the sole reason but for me one of the reasons. Every show has it's weak seasons. I assumed season 8 was just that but i was wrong.
To be honest, there will always be split opinions of any seasons of any television shows. That's the fun of forums.
My favourite ep, which had me gasping for breath with laughter, was something to do with a beach house and a dead (I think) seal dressed as a woman... amazingly I only ever saw it once!
I'm sure the writers and producers knew that things would never be the same once Daphne and Niles got together. But all good things come to an end and maybe that was their way of building up to it. I did find the Daphne-centred eps, whether with her family or fiance or Niles, pretty humdrum.
While there was an undeniable decline after the wonderful Season 7 finale (and the departure of the show's best writers Christopher Lloyd and Joe Keenan), Seasons 8, 9 and 10 were nothing like as bad as some make out. And Season 11 (when Lloyd and Keenan returned) was a glorious return to form; easily the equal of any of the first seven years, it ensured the show went out on a high. But there are also some gems in the show's so-called Bad years. Season 10's "Fathers and Sons" especially is one of the best and most poignant episodes the show ever produced. Roe To Perdition (also Season 10), Bla-Z-Boy (Season 9) and The Show Must Go Off (Season 8) are other stand-out eps.
Gosh, I love Frasier but I haven't watched it in a while. This thread is making me want to dig out my old box sets. I agree that it declined somewhat when Niles and Daphnie got together but it was inevitable that they had to at some point. I think the show should maybe have concluded a few years earlier and went out with those two finally being together. There were still some great episodes in that period of course but I hated Daphnie's family and the whole thing with Clare and her stupid son.
But the early seasons are right up there with any comedy and in terms of my favourites, only Seinfeld comes ahead of it.
That's from "Fathers and Sons" in Season 10 - when the show was supposedly bad according to some! (But that, for me, is a stand-out episode).
Yes I know, i love that moment because you can see Frasier realising that his father feels neglected. I thought whatshisname coming out as gay was a bit contrived but I suppose they needed something to put Martins mind at ease.
Daphne, Niles and Martin are my clear favourites, I found that Frasier can grate a bit in some episodes and Roz was a bit hit and miss too.
I loved how quirky Daphne was, they should have included more of her rants and stories in the later seasons.
Season eight does boast some awful episodes, frasier befriending Roz's boyfriend, frasier dating his lawyer and frasiers mentor turning up we're all really bad. I would rather they had actually started building the foundation to Daphne and Niles relationship more. Instead they had to go along with what Mel wanted. Mel and Donny should have vanished after the first episode of series 8.
Season eight does boast some awful episodes, frasier befriending Roz's boyfriend, frasier dating his lawyer and frasiers mentor turning up we're all really bad.
I disagree. I thought those were perfectly fine. I wouldn't rate them as five star episodes, but far from being really bad. (Probably 3 out of five imo).
Comments
Best episode ever!
Also loved the crossover into the Simpsons with sideshow bobs dad voiced by John Mahoney and brother by DHP!
I love Frasier and have got all the 'earlier' box sets. I went right off it though when Niles and Daphne got together, and her bloody awful family. I didn't really get Martin and Ronnie either. But before all that it was one of the best things on TV. My favourite episode has to be The Ski Lodge.
I agree that the show lost something after Niles and Daphne finally got together. I also thought the way they wrote Daphne out for the actresses' pregnancy was stupid.
Some of the show's charm went away. Can't re call any episodes I would happily go back and rewatch again.
Maybe season 9, 10 and 11 will be better
I haven't enjoyed the whole Frasier/Claire/Lana triangle that dragged out the last 4 episodes of season 8 and what looks like will be continued in season 9.
Frasier: This is my brother, Dr Niles Crane - the eminent psychiatrist.
Niles: My brother is too kind - he was already eminent while my eminence was merely imminent.
While there was an undeniable decline after the wonderful Season 7 finale (and the departure of the show's best writers Christopher Lloyd and Joe Keenan), Seasons 8, 9 and 10 were nothing like as bad as some make out. And Season 11 (when Lloyd and Keenan returned) was a glorious return to form; easily the equal of any of the first seven years, it ensured the show went out on a high. But there are also some gems in the show's so-called Bad years. Season 10's "Fathers and Sons" especially is one of the best and most poignant episodes the show ever produced. Roe To Perdition (also Season 10), Bla-Z-Boy (Season 9) and The Show Must Go Off (Season 8) are other stand-out eps.
I think you're right in asserting that Niles and Daphne getting together was not a turning point for the better (much as happened with Maddie and David in Moonlighting), but Jane Leeves' real life pregnancy during production of Season 8 hardly helped matters. And while Daphne definitely changed, I don't feel she became unpleasant or nasty to the other characters; it was just that she was a member of the family now, not just an employee. That was inevitably going to change the dynamic.
Interestingly, while Jane Leeves wasn't from Manchester, John Mahoney who played Martin was born in Blackpool after his family were evacuated from Manchester in World War II.
The Ski Lodge is magnificent.
Frasier did farce better than any other sitcom. And it was doing farce throughout its run. The best ever episode - Ham Radio - for my money the funniest half-hour of television ever, was pure farce from start to finish. And that was Season 4. The Ski Lodge, another highpoint, was like a filmed stage farce and that was Season 5. The show didn't become farcical towards the end. Nor, I would submit, did its farces mark a decline. Quite the reverse.
Except when he found Daphne's pub, or when he watched football with Martin, or went McGinty's to meet what he hoped would be his cop girlfriend.
"I'm not gay Gee"....!!!
Another one of my favourites is when Lileth's husband leaves her and she comes back to see Frasier, but ends up sleeping with Niles! And there's the one when Frasier and Niles buy the restaurant together and of course it's a disaster.
Love "The Doctor Is Out" from the final season.
Alistair: The intensity, the heat, the desire! Can you feel it?
(pulls his body up to Frasier)
Frasier: Oh yes, there it is!
Particularly the odd time when they get a comeuppance......I vaguely remember the episode where they find themselves in a common restaurant, maybe a steak house, and they're being very snooty about then discover it's Martin's favourite restaurant......
I thought Frasier's agent was a marvellous character......
The 'farce' episodes.........the Ski lodge, Niles and Lileth in the hotel,
The way that Frasier's son used to smirk at Niles while he was being hugged by Daphne..........:D
the episode where some ruffian was waiting to fight them out the coffee shop.......
Sadly, the eps on Channel 4 in the mornings are cut, and that ep - one of my all-time favourites and another of Joe Keenan's gay farces, which began in Season 2 with The Matchmaker - has suffered more cuts than most. I've got the box set of course, and now have downloaded the entire series from iTunes.
Incredibly, that was only the third ep in the entire run, but already the show was firing on all cylinders.
The death of David Angell (creator) in 9/11 was what killed the show for me. Losing the heart, soul and brains of the show can normally lead to a decline in any show.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. First, David Angell was killed during production of Season 9, but most people argue that the rot - if indeed there was one - started in Season 8. By that time, the heart, soul and brains of the show as you put it were Christopher Lloyd and Joe Keenan (and with all respect to Mr. Angell, David Lloyd was just as important in the creation of Frasier and he was still around). They left at the end of Season 7, and it definitely shows. But they returned for the final season, Season 11. The general consensus is that Season 11 is as good as anything in the first 7 seasons.
Personally, I feel it's stronger than Seasons 1, 3 and 6. Only a handful of Frasier eps in the first 7 years are better than the glorious Caught In the Act ep near the end of the run. And I thought the finale was superb. Compared with the lacklustre finales of Friends and Will & Grace, Frasier went out with a real bang and, more importantly, left us wanting more.
I am well aware he was killed during season 9. The decline for me became worse once he was out of the show. Just how i feel. It isn't the sole reason but for me one of the reasons. Every show has it's weak seasons. I assumed season 8 was just that but i was wrong.
To be honest, there will always be split opinions of any seasons of any television shows. That's the fun of forums.
I'm sure the writers and producers knew that things would never be the same once Daphne and Niles got together. But all good things come to an end and maybe that was their way of building up to it. I did find the Daphne-centred eps, whether with her family or fiance or Niles, pretty humdrum.
I agree.
That's from "Fathers and Sons" in Season 10 - when the show was supposedly bad according to some! (But that, for me, is a stand-out episode).
But the early seasons are right up there with any comedy and in terms of my favourites, only Seinfeld comes ahead of it.
Yes I know, i love that moment because you can see Frasier realising that his father feels neglected. I thought whatshisname coming out as gay was a bit contrived but I suppose they needed something to put Martins mind at ease.
Daphne, Niles and Martin are my clear favourites, I found that Frasier can grate a bit in some episodes and Roz was a bit hit and miss too.
I loved how quirky Daphne was, they should have included more of her rants and stories in the later seasons.
Season eight does boast some awful episodes, frasier befriending Roz's boyfriend, frasier dating his lawyer and frasiers mentor turning up we're all really bad. I would rather they had actually started building the foundation to Daphne and Niles relationship more. Instead they had to go along with what Mel wanted. Mel and Donny should have vanished after the first episode of series 8.
I disagree. I thought those were perfectly fine. I wouldn't rate them as five star episodes, but far from being really bad. (Probably 3 out of five imo).