The biggest mystery, at the moment, seems to be what's happening with the defence team.....
I can't believe Roux didn't realise how catastrophic it would be to put Dixon on the stand. Not only did he not have the relevant forensic expertise he was expecting him to cover so many areas e.g. pathology, blood splatter, sound, lighting Ballistics.....the more you consider it the less credulous it seems. Also, why did they not insist that Dixon compiled reports?...I'd expect Roux and Co to go through them meticulously so that they could prepare the evidence-in -chief and maximise the findings that supported OP's version. What were the defence doing during the adjournment , when the assessor was ill?
It seems as though no one was 'managing' Dixon and that he had complete free reign....how could Roux have missed blatant contradictions with OP's testimony and Dixon's........why show the photos of the bathroom? In fact why did they take the photos of the bathroom? The magazine rack? The bruising? I'm really curious as to who on the defence team made that fatal call to Dixon, to ask for his input. Why was Dixon compiling his evidence at the last minute rather than a year ago?
Now, we have the rumour and speculation about the defense pathologist bailing out....apparently that's not so, but he's not going to testify now as he has other commitments....sounds unlikely...but, even less convincing, is that they aren't relying on the content of his affidavit.....why?
I'm hoping that once appeals are complete and time has passed, we'll really find out what's been happening behind the scenes. More and more I think the relationship between OP and the defence might have broken down and that Roux is on the brink of walking away.
A very reasonable thought. Roux may be a Lawyer but even Lawyers and Estate Agents have consciences! Roux knows OP is guilty and possibly knows far worse, he is a professional and well paid he set the scene as best he could for his Client. His Client choose another route and won't be told and blew it. If Roux could exit now he would and avoid the "taint" of the man that tried to "fix it". This guys hearts not in it. Apparently he is Human, Married with 2 Children perhaps Reeva could have been one of his snuffed out with 4 Black Tallon Lethal Bullets......
I was just thinking about how OP seemingly messed up his testimony by continually refusing to say that he intended to pull the trigger to defend himself from some real fear of a threat to his life. He was supposed to say he meant to pull the trigger! Roux had a year to pound that in to his head. But OP did not say that and his defense changed from self defense to involuntary action. Roux asked a few questions to try to refocus OPs defense, but all of his denials are on the record.
So I am now thinking that OP answered the questions exactly as Roux had told him to. Roux wants the other component of involuntary action in the mix because he is going to have a psychologist testify to all of the psychological mumbo jumbo that fits with that. I realize that it does not fit with the strict legal rule of only being able to use one defense, but that will not stop Roux from using the mental testimony to try to influence the judges and having it on the record to use in OPs appeal.
There's no way that OP would meet the legal requirements for a mental health plea....between the bail and now there's a lot of proof from media sources that he was able to socialise etc. He didn't plead temporary insanity at the time and that's not something he can plead retrospectively. He might mow be able to claim that he's suffering from PTSD and that this is linked to his remorse...this might reduce his sentence but won't change the conviction.
Starts at 51.40 where the questioning has been narrowed down to the bathroom and toilet light. At 52.05 Stipp talks about the different intensities. Could not be more specific.
I think OP testified that the Standers' daughter (Carice/Clarice?) asked for rope or something to make a tourniquet. I doubt he'd say that unless she actually had asked for something to make a tourniquet, but I don't know if she's testified to that or not. Interesting that OP can't remember who went for the "bags and tape", and the daughter could answer that but I can't find the answer as to who fetched them.
I think it's not beyond the realms of imagination that he could have been getting them with ideas about disposing of the body before the Standers arrived.
Yes .. knowing what we know about him and what we've heard from him re previous incidents .. it's not that unlikely that his first thoughts were .. how can I extricate myself from this. I think the Standers .. once they arrived and took in the situation .. were probably the voice of reason.
I did think Stander was just the manager of the estate, but I think they are friends as well. One of the court journos tweeted that Aimee Pistorius greeted the Standers with a hug when they attended court on Thursday. Really interested in hearing their testimony.
Me too. Afiak we only have Pistorius' word for it that Ms Stander asked for 'rope' or 'tape'. If it all stacks up that's fine. But I want to be sure those items were not around when the Standers arrived, and that Ms Standers asked precisely for what Pistorius said she did, and not a more general request for 'something' to stem the bleeding.
I think OP testified that the Standers' daughter (Carice/Clarice?) asked for rope or something to make a tourniquet. I doubt he'd say that unless she actually had asked for something to make a tourniquet, but I don't know if she's testified to that or not. Interesting that OP can't remember who went for the "bags and tape", and the daughter could answer that but I can't find the answer as to who fetched them.
I think it's not beyond the realms of imagination that he could have been getting them with ideas about disposing of the body before the Standers arrived.
Exactly. I have not found anything from Clarice Stander on that point.
I'm not accusing the Standers of being in cahoots with Pistorius, but it's possible that he used the Standers' presence to explain something away. It's noticeable that Roux specifically wanted those details covered.
I'm curious as to whether Stander thinks OP called him first because he was the manager of the estate or because he was a friend. If his reasoning for calling estate staff was because they were so close to hand why did he tell the security officer that all was fine?
That suggests he called Stander because of their friendship...which is an odd priority over calling an ambulance.
Starts at 51.40 where the questioning has been narrowed down to the bathroom and toilet light. At 52.05 Stipp talks about the different intensities. Could not be more specific.
Start a bit earlier for context. He is talking about the house next door.
Quick question: Who called for the ambulance in the end?
Stander called one from Netcare. Dr Stipp did the talking. Not clear if one had been called already. Two arrived together (or rather, one ambulance and one first responder)
Well quite. He might have been able to put the body in his car boot, but there would have been no indication she ever left the compound, and there was far too much mess to be able to clean up.
Hmmm... I can't think of a way he could deal with her car being there and her disappearing.
I suppose if he were panicking immediately after the shooting, he might have got some tape, rope and bags before the Standers arrived, but realised in the meantime that he wouldn't be able to explain her disappearance and abandoned the idea, but left the stuff (perhaps in the kitchen).
Maybe he then conveniently brought that very stuff out when Clarice asked for something to stem the blood flow with. Why she would ask very specifically for "rope or tape" and why the bin bags were also produced is a bit strange, I think.
I also think poor Reeva had passed away by then and so the heart would no longer be pumping blood out, there would only be slower oozing. So I can't figure out why they would be looking about for tourniquet materials at that point. Maybe the Standers were involved in an abandoned plan to dispose of the body, and perhaps between them they decided it wouldn't work, then OP later had to explain why those particular materials were there.
Clarice's evidence that she had asked OP to find "rope or tape or something" is key to this one, does anyone know if she testified?
Stander called one from Netcare. Dr Stipp did the talking. Not clear if one had been called already. Two arrived together (or rather, one ambulance and one first responder)
Thanks Bus Stop. I know that OP called Netcare after he called Stander, but he said they advised him to drive her to hospital rather than wait for an ambulance. According to Netcare's website all of their calls are recorded, so if they're called by the defense it will be interesting to hear how he described her injuries and what they said to him. Apparently Netcare are on the list of defense witnesses.
Stander called one from Netcare. Dr Stipp did the talking. Not clear if one had been called already. Two arrived together (or rather, one ambulance and one first responder)
Hmmm... I can't think of a way he could deal with her car being there and her disappearing.
I suppose if he were panicking immediately after the shooting, he might have got some tape, rope and bags before the Standers arrived, but realised in the meantime that he wouldn't be able to explain her disappearance and abandoned the idea, but left the stuff (perhaps in the kitchen).
Maybe he then conveniently brought that very stuff out when Clarice asked for something to stem the blood flow with. Why she would ask very specifically for "rope or tape" and why the bin bags were also produced is a bit strange, I think.
I also think poor Reeva had passed away by then and so the heart would no longer be pumping blood out, there would only be slower oozing. So I can't figure out why they would be looking about for tourniquet materials at that point. Maybe the Standers were involved in an abandoned plan to dispose of the body, and perhaps between them they decided it wouldn't work, then OP later had to explain why those particular materials were there.
Clarice's evidence that she had asked OP to find "rope or tape or something" is key to this one, does anyone know if she testified?
I think someone said something about the bin bags being there to soak up blood .. again not the items that would come to mind for the job.
It's hard to believe that anyone there thought about tourniquets when she had brain matter in her hair .. just bizarre. But it's what he said to security that makes me most suspicious of his intentions.
I was going to say that the defense must be confident that Netcare will back up OP's version, but after Dixon I'm not so sure! OP probably told them that she had fallen in the toilet and had a graze to her head....camera will pan over to Roux who will have his head in his hands and then to OP, with his head in the bucket....
Hmmm... I can't think of a way he could deal with her car being there and her disappearing.
I suppose if he were panicking immediately after the shooting, he might have got some tape, rope and bags before the Standers arrived, but realised in the meantime that he wouldn't be able to explain her disappearance and abandoned the idea, but left the stuff (perhaps in the kitchen).
Maybe he then conveniently brought that very stuff out when Clarice asked for something to stem the blood flow with. Why she would ask very specifically for "rope or tape" and why the bin bags were also produced is a bit strange, I think.
I also think poor Reeva had passed away by then and so the heart would no longer be pumping blood out, there would only be slower oozing. So I can't figure out why they would be looking about for tourniquet materials at that point. Maybe the Standers were involved in an abandoned plan to dispose of the body, and perhaps between them they decided it wouldn't work, then OP later had to explain why those particular materials were there.
Clarice's evidence that she had asked OP to find "rope or tape or something" is key to this one, does anyone know if she testified?
That's exactly what I was thinking (I expanded my post above to include your previous post.)
I think it's possible that Pistorius in a panic thought of disposing of the body - although it would never have worked in a million years - and then used the presence of the Standers to explain away certain items.
As I said in my previous post, afaik we only have Pistorius' word for it that Ms Standers asked for what he said she did. Did she actually ask for 'rope' and 'tape 'or did she just ask for something more general? Did she ask at all? Why would you get a tourniquet when Ms Steenkamp obviously had a massive brain injury?
And what use is bin bags? It was said that they were used to cover her wounds, but this may be simply because they were there. If you were going to fetch something to cover a badly injured person why would you get bags? Surely you'd get a sheet or rugs or towels...
At this point I was mixed with emotions I didn't know if...I didn't want to believe it could be Reeva inside the toilet. I was still scared maybe somebody was coming in to attack me or us. I made my way back to inside the bathroom and I walked up to the...the bathroom door. I tried to grab the handle and rip open the door, push the door open but it was locked.
I thought they said in court that the door opened outwards and that the door could not be closed when on the loo.
Can anyone tell me if I am right or wrong on this?
Comments
A very reasonable thought. Roux may be a Lawyer but even Lawyers and Estate Agents have consciences! Roux knows OP is guilty and possibly knows far worse, he is a professional and well paid he set the scene as best he could for his Client. His Client choose another route and won't be told and blew it. If Roux could exit now he would and avoid the "taint" of the man that tried to "fix it". This guys hearts not in it. Apparently he is Human, Married with 2 Children perhaps Reeva could have been one of his snuffed out with 4 Black Tallon Lethal Bullets......
groans....
No. He was comparing the intensities of the bathroom and toilet window.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsQaxImyQVA#aid=P8m8xte-0Yw
Starts at 51.40 where the questioning has been narrowed down to the bathroom and toilet light. At 52.05 Stipp talks about the different intensities. Could not be more specific.
Me too. Afiak we only have Pistorius' word for it that Ms Stander asked for 'rope' or 'tape'. If it all stacks up that's fine. But I want to be sure those items were not around when the Standers arrived, and that Ms Standers asked precisely for what Pistorius said she did, and not a more general request for 'something' to stem the bleeding.
Exactly. I have not found anything from Clarice Stander on that point.
I'm not accusing the Standers of being in cahoots with Pistorius, but it's possible that he used the Standers' presence to explain something away. It's noticeable that Roux specifically wanted those details covered.
That suggests he called Stander because of their friendship...which is an odd priority over calling an ambulance.
Start a bit earlier for context. He is talking about the house next door.
Stander called one from Netcare. Dr Stipp did the talking. Not clear if one had been called already. Two arrived together (or rather, one ambulance and one first responder)
Hmmm... I can't think of a way he could deal with her car being there and her disappearing.
I suppose if he were panicking immediately after the shooting, he might have got some tape, rope and bags before the Standers arrived, but realised in the meantime that he wouldn't be able to explain her disappearance and abandoned the idea, but left the stuff (perhaps in the kitchen).
Maybe he then conveniently brought that very stuff out when Clarice asked for something to stem the blood flow with. Why she would ask very specifically for "rope or tape" and why the bin bags were also produced is a bit strange, I think.
I also think poor Reeva had passed away by then and so the heart would no longer be pumping blood out, there would only be slower oozing. So I can't figure out why they would be looking about for tourniquet materials at that point. Maybe the Standers were involved in an abandoned plan to dispose of the body, and perhaps between them they decided it wouldn't work, then OP later had to explain why those particular materials were there.
Clarice's evidence that she had asked OP to find "rope or tape or something" is key to this one, does anyone know if she testified?
Don't forget your coat..
Thanks Bus Stop. I know that OP called Netcare after he called Stander, but he said they advised him to drive her to hospital rather than wait for an ambulance. According to Netcare's website all of their calls are recorded, so if they're called by the defense it will be interesting to hear how he described her injuries and what they said to him. Apparently Netcare are on the list of defense witnesses.
That's another witness I'm looking forward to.
Stander dialled and passed the phone to Dr Stipp to do the description of injuries. But I think one had been called earlier too. Two arrived together.
Roux mentioned a call from Stander to Netcare at 3:27
You're driving me nuts!
I'm going out for a bit.
I'll be back
It's hard to believe that anyone there thought about tourniquets when she had brain matter in her hair .. just bizarre. But it's what he said to security that makes me most suspicious of his intentions.
I was going to say that the defense must be confident that Netcare will back up OP's version, but after Dixon I'm not so sure! OP probably told them that she had fallen in the toilet and had a graze to her head....camera will pan over to Roux who will have his head in his hands and then to OP, with his head in the bucket....
That's exactly what I was thinking (I expanded my post above to include your previous post.)
I think it's possible that Pistorius in a panic thought of disposing of the body - although it would never have worked in a million years - and then used the presence of the Standers to explain away certain items.
As I said in my previous post, afaik we only have Pistorius' word for it that Ms Standers asked for what he said she did. Did she actually ask for 'rope' and 'tape 'or did she just ask for something more general? Did she ask at all? Why would you get a tourniquet when Ms Steenkamp obviously had a massive brain injury?
And what use is bin bags? It was said that they were used to cover her wounds, but this may be simply because they were there. If you were going to fetch something to cover a badly injured person why would you get bags? Surely you'd get a sheet or rugs or towels...