Well, New Park...I thought he was really leaning in that direction in S6E1....when he made what was about the longest DM speech ever in the woods. I remember almost jumping for joy when I heard it. I wish I had the exact quote but that would take some searching. Something like..."First you say something that you want, then you say that you don't want it when you really do.....that's not fair." Then maybe he falls down a hill but It went right over Louisa's head. If he knows what she wants he will try to accommodate , but he doesn't get the "guess what I really want game", and it is the source of many problems.
This would definitely help, I agree. She makes assumptions or jumps to conclusions in a way that he (or anyone, maybe) is unable to follow. Their exchange about Carrie Wilson’s party was another example, full of assumptions on her part that he has no way of knowing:
L: PC Penhale’s roped me into going to his party later. Probably going to be terrible.
M: Ghastly. Obviously.
L: So I just wondered if you were going anyway. Or if you wanted to meet me there. It doesn’t have to be for the whole thing.
M: Ummm [pauses]. Yes.
L: [pauses]. Yes. ?
M: Penhale’s party at Mrs. Wilson’s hotel. I’ll be there.
L: Oh, right. ? [looks at him brightly]
M: What?
L: Nothing. It’s just…I thought you hated parties.
M: Uh...well, it depends.
L: Why are you so keen to go to this one, then?
M: I’m not. You just asked me to.
L: I did. I’m just surprised that you’re planning on going, that’s all.
M: Well, so you asked me to go because you expected me to say no.
L: No, I asked you because I hoped you’d say yes.
M: I did say yes.
L: Well, it’s just usually I have to twist your arm to do anything… [phone rings]
M: I’m sorry; I have no idea what it is you want me to say. [in the usual manner, the conversation is then cut short by an emergency].
Making Louisa somewhat edgier in S7 gives good fodder for a story line in S7 that includes her coming to the realization that she has to make some changes too. I wonder if that was intended originally? Somehow, I doubt it. Will Martin ever get to the point that he asks Louisa for some changes too, aside from hectoring her to quit her job, which is never going to happen. I'd like to see him actually stand up for himself in a grown-up way.
And if you were Martin, how would you want Louisa's behavior to change?
I’d like Louisa to let Martin be who he is. She defends him to other people, notably his mother, and she has told him that he’s extraordinary and different, but when it comes down to it, she doesn’t really walk that walk.
For them to survive as a couple and a family, he has to make changes in his behavior, of course. But it seems to me she extends reasonable expectations about what’s necessary in their relationship to less reasonable expectations that he change his essential self to conform to her vision of “normal” behavior. She wants him to be more personable, friendlier to the villagers, more sociable, because…because that’s how most people are and it’s the social norm. But those things aren’t important to Martin and run counter to his own sense of what’s meaningful. His values are his values, and his behavior reflects them. She can judge them, if she wants, but it’s not her business to dictate them.
I'm having a little difficulty formulating my thoughts here coherently. I don’t want to sound as if I’m bashing Louisa; as we know, M. is a Difficult Person, and she does love him. But I think she’ll get a lot farther if she responds to who he actually is rather than what she wants him to be.
I’d like Louisa to let Martin be who he is. She defends him to other people, notably his mother, and she has told him that he’s extraordinary and different, but when it comes down to it, she doesn’t really walk that walk.
For them to survive as a couple and a family, he has to make changes in his behavior, of course. But it seems to me she extends reasonable expectations about what’s necessary in their relationship to less reasonable expectations that he change his essential self to conform to her vision of “normal” behavior. She wants him to be more personable, friendlier to the villagers, more sociable, because…because that’s how most people are and it’s the social norm. But those things aren’t important to Martin and run counter to his own sense of what’s meaningful. His values are his values, and his behavior reflects them. She can judge them, if she wants, but it’s not her business to dictate them.
I'm having a little difficulty formulating my thoughts here coherently. I don’t want to sound as if I’m bashing Louisa; as we know, M. is a Difficult Person, and she does love him. But I think she’ll get a lot farther if she responds to who he actually is rather than what she wants him to be.
I also find it hard to phrase my thoughts, or perhaps even think, coherently about Louisa.
We can think, I guess, that Louisa's behavior varies arbitrarily, according to the whims of the writers and/or the dictates of the plot. I tend to think, that while there's some of that going on, that people, including Louisa, can hold contradictory thoughts or opinions simultaneously, perhaps without even realizing it. So I think it's possible that Louisa intends on some level to accept Martin as he is, but she can't quite admit to herself that the opinion of others about Martin matters to her, and that she doesn't like it when his behavior is off-putting or odd. and she'd like him to be less of a square peg in a round hole at least sometimes.
Where I think she may not be being honest with herself is in overestimating how much she can tolerate of his limited capacity for intimacy and demonstrative affection. Every once in a while, the dam bursts and he blurts out something "nice" and she allows herself to think that he's changed, or that she can live off of these occasional outbursts. But she can't really, and I think the push and pull of that explains some of her erratic behavior. Sometimes she really sees, or thinks she sees that he can't give her what she needs, and then she leaves, but she really wants him so much that she allows herself to believe that what he can occasionally give her is enough.
That, really, is what I think the problem or the drama of S7 will be -- this time, words won't be enough, and he will have to demonstrate over a period of time that he is capable of giving her what she needs from him. Or course, she has to be clear about what that is, in a way that she has never been capable of, so far.
This gets to the question of how legitimate it is to ask someone to change for you, or should you just accept them as they are. First of all, I think people can change their behavior, with prompting and reinforcement. Maybe not who they"are" but some behaviors. And second, I think it is entirely legitimate to state clearly what you need from that person, and what's a deal-breaker if it's not present. Then, stay or go, depending on what happens, accepting that the person has done what they're capable of in the circumstances. But stop wafflling.
I also find it hard to phrase my thoughts, or perhaps even think, coherently about Louisa.
We can think, I guess, that Louisa's behavior varies arbitrarily, according to the whims of the writers and/or the dictates of the plot. I tend to think, that while there's some of that going on, that people, including Louisa, can hold contradictory thoughts or opinions simultaneously, perhaps without even realizing it. So I think it's possible that Louisa intends on some level to accept Martin as he is, but she can't quite admit to herself that the opinion of others about Martin matters to her, and that she doesn't like it when his behavior is off-putting or odd. and she'd like him to be less of a square peg in a round hole at least sometimes.
Where I think she may not be being honest with herself is in overestimating how much she can tolerate of his limited capacity for intimacy and demonstrative affection. Every once in a while, the dam bursts and he blurts out something "nice" and she allows herself to think that he's changed, or that she can live off of these occasional outbursts. But she can't really, and I think the push and pull of that explains some of her erratic behavior. Sometimes she really sees, or thinks she sees that he can't give her what she needs, and then she leaves, but she really wants him so much that she allows herself to believe that what he can occasionally give her is enough.
That, really, is what I think the problem or the drama of S7 will be -- this time, words won't be enough, and he will have to demonstrate over a period of time that he is capable of giving her what she needs from him. Or course, she has to be clear about what that is, in a way that she has never been capable of, so far.
This gets to the question of how legitimate it is to ask someone to change for you, or should you just accept them as they are. First of all, I think people can change their behavior, with prompting and reinforcement. Maybe not who they"are" but some behaviors. And second, I think it is entirely legitimate to state clearly what you need from that person, and what's a deal-breaker if it's not present. Then, stay or go, depending on what happens, accepting that the person has done what they're capable of in the circumstances. But stop wafflling.
And that goes for both of them.
Along those lines, I don't believe it is incumbent on Martin to request those things. I believe deep inside that he realizes his behavior is anti social and rude. I don't think he spends much time thinking about it or if he really cares in his conscious mind. But I think deep inside it is embarrassing to him and he'd rather not be that way......hence the return visit to the folk singer with bronchitis and apology, his saying to the seashell lady "ignoring the symptoms doesn't mean the condition doesn't exist' ". Or to Mike Pruddy...."if the army would provide treatment, to help you have more control over your life, would you accept it."
In all those statements he is ironically speaking of himself. I, however think that Louisa needs a good talking to by an outside party. She will have to be shown the best things that she can do to make things work....if she wants to. I can't see Martin saying, "hugging and kissing are not my forte, I know, but can you accept it because I love you?" Too far inside and too embarrassing.
God, I love this program. It is one of the most sophisticated I've ever seen packaged in the simple package of a grumpy doctor I in a small village in Cornwall....brilliant!
In series 7 and beyond, I hope the writers develop Louisa and give her one personality. She has been batted about in series 5 and 6 only to further Martin's dramatic development. I think Caroline Catz is up to the task but the writers have to cooperate.
I think this is what they have to do to keep viewers interested. A consistent Louisa who knows what she wants and who she is will go a long way in helping this show pull itself back up. If she is the cornerstone, then we will see if the two of them can be a couple.
I think that they should fast forward the show a few years and let the show catch up closer to the actors' ages. We've had two seasons with infants. I think it's time to move them into another stage of marriage and parenthood.
I also find it hard to phrase my thoughts, or perhaps even think, coherently about Louisa.
We can think, I guess, that Louisa's behavior varies arbitrarily, according to the whims of the writers and/or the dictates of the plot. I tend to think, that while there's some of that going on, that people, including Louisa, can hold contradictory thoughts or opinions simultaneously, perhaps without even realizing it. So I think it's possible that Louisa intends on some level to accept Martin as he is, but she can't quite admit to herself that the opinion of others about Martin matters to her, and that she doesn't like it when his behavior is off-putting or odd. and she'd like him to be less of a square peg in a round hole at least sometimes.
Where I think she may not be being honest with herself is in overestimating how much she can tolerate of his limited capacity for intimacy and demonstrative affection. Every once in a while, the dam bursts and he blurts out something "nice" and she allows herself to think that he's changed, or that she can live off of these occasional outbursts. But she can't really, and I think the push and pull of that explains some of her erratic behavior. Sometimes she really sees, or thinks she sees that he can't give her what she needs, and then she leaves, but she really wants him so much that she allows herself to believe that what he can occasionally give her is enough.
That, really, is what I think the problem or the drama of S7 will be -- this time, words won't be enough, and he will have to demonstrate over a period of time that he is capable of giving her what she needs from him. Or course, she has to be clear about what that is, in a way that she has never been capable of, so far.
This gets to the question of how legitimate it is to ask someone to change for you, or should you just accept them as they are. First of all, I think people can change their behavior, with prompting and reinforcement. Maybe not who they"are" but some behaviors. And second, I think it is entirely legitimate to state clearly what you need from that person, and what's a deal-breaker if it's not present. Then, stay or go, depending on what happens, accepting that the person has done what they're capable of in the circumstances. But stop wafflling.
And that goes for both of them.
Bingo! NewPark. You've said it so well. And so illustrative of the conundrum that is this show. Humans and all their myriad frailties and paradoxes!
I keep remembering through it all........ Louisa is a teacher, hopeful as any teacher for her charges to learn. And Martin has said he can learn... and continues to learn in his profession, we know. I wonder if those two images will end up playing out in S7 or beyond? I think we saw both in S6 at times.
And dare I say also...........Aunt Joan called them chalk and cheese. Aunt Ruth says he must change or leave her (LGE) alone. Will there be a fairy tale ending, though I'm sure with surprising twists and turns along the way? Or would the production company dare to give us a not happily ever after ending?
My guess is somewhere in the middle lies the solution.........a being together more or less happy ending, but inset with another pointed issue that shows the reality of most relationships--that they can go on but will have their moments of ups and downs.
I think this is what they have to do to keep viewers interested. A consistent Louisa who knows what she wants and who she is will go a long way in helping this show pull itself back up. If she is the cornerstone, then we will see if the two of them can be a couple.
I think that they should fast forward the show a few years and let the show catch up closer to the actors' ages. We've had two seasons with infants. I think it's time to move them into another stage of marriage and parenthood.
I look forward to their S7 interactions and how they get sorted. But after that, I'd have no objections to seeing them and JH age a bit. I would be happy to see them a bit down the road in their marriage after S7. Preferably with another child. I've so enjoyed watching Doc with JH, and wonder how a second, preferably little girl, could be worked into the show. Doc with one child has been precious to watch. Doc with a second and a girl at that could be a hoot in my imagination.
I look forward to their S7 interactions and how they get sorted. But after that, I'd have no objections to seeing them and JH age a bit. I would be happy to see them a bit down the road in their marriage after S7. Preferably with another child. I've so enjoyed watching Doc with JH, and wonder how a second, preferably little girl, could be worked into the show. Doc with one child has been precious to watch. Doc with a second and a girl at that could be a hoot in my imagination.
A really interesting thing to see or imagine is when James Henry begins to talk and establish his own personality. That, I think, will be fascinating and therapeutic for Martin. He won't be able to stay cozy in his shell anymore.....that is if he's willing to be a good father.
This is one reason why I don't think there will be another DM after S7. I think it may be "time for something new." And he can't go on playing a 40-ish character for too much longer, as great as he looks now. Same for CC. More important, the main dramatic engine is the ins and outs of the Martisa relationship, and there just isn't too much more fuel imaginable for further plot developments there -- short of killing Louisa off entirely and having Martin start over. I know tons of people believe that there are lots of stories they could do that are just as compelling, but in my view anyway, I think they are kidding themselves.
Making Louisa somewhat edgier in S7 gives good fodder for a story line in S7 that includes her coming to the realization that she has to make some changes too. I wonder if that was intended originally? Somehow, I doubt it. Will Martin ever get to the point that he asks Louisa for some changes too, aside from hectoring her to quit her job, which is never going to happen. I'd like to see him actually stand up for himself in a grown-up way.
And if you were Martin, how would you want Louisa's behavior to change?
I would love to see Louisa develop a sense of humor. Because of lacking that, its so easy for her to over-react to and over-think situations in less than positive ways.
Right you are MM. Martin is considered the glum one but Louisa definitely lacks a sense of humor. Remember how Edith Momtgomery make a clever retort when Martin said her perfume smelled like cheese and he got it! I can't imagine how any marriage survives without each party having a sense of humor. Martin has the capacity and the writers need to add that element to Louisa's personality.
I would love to see Louisa develop a sense of humor. Because of lacking that, its so easy for her to over-react to and over-think situations in less than positive ways.
Yes, and not a mean-spirited one! Personally, I found the times that Louisa mocked Martin (sitting at his desk, "I'm being you" and in the forest when he's scared of the horse, "this is my final warning!") to be disconcerting. Yes, it's amusing in that Martin can be a bit ridiculous, but I find it unkind.
Perhaps that was not the intention of the writers, and others may interpret it differently, but why have Louisa mock him in this way? Hasn't Martin had enough of people teasing and ridiculing him? Does Martin really need his own wife to be mocking him?
Yes, and not a mean-spirited one! Personally, I found the times that Louisa mocked Martin (sitting at his desk, "I'm being you" and in the forest when he's scared of the horse, "this is my final warning!") to be disconcerting. Yes, it's amusing in that Martin can be a bit ridiculous, but I find it unkind.
Perhaps that was not the intention of the writers, and others may interpret it differently, but why have Louisa mock him in this way? Hasn't Martin had enough of people teasing and ridiculing him? Does Martin really need his own wife to be mocking him?
I so agree with this. It takes a sense of self-worth and acceptance to not be hurt by teasing and Martin does not have that kind of ego strength. (yet, at least. Maybe one day). Why does Louisa mock his vulnerabilities – don’t the villagers do enough of that? It could be argued that in some instances, it’s just her general frustration boiling over, but the scene in the forest wasn’t one of them, and for that reason bothered me particularly. They’ve just gotten married, they’re lost, and he’s trying to protect her. Why is she making fun of him? It just seemed so needless. Martin is complicated, and can be frustrating, no doubt, but, but I find Louisa to be pretty insensitive at times. What the writers were thinking is a good question. So we’re back to the issue of how inconsistently her character is written.
Yes, and not a mean-spirited one! Personally, I found the times that Louisa mocked Martin (sitting at his desk, "I'm being you" and in the forest when he's scared of the horse, "this is my final warning!") to be disconcerting. Yes, it's amusing in that Martin can be a bit ridiculous, but I find it unkind.
Perhaps that was not the intention of the writers, and others may interpret it differently, but why have Louisa mock him in this way? Hasn't Martin had enough of people teasing and ridiculing him? Does Martin really need his own wife to be mocking him?
Yes, those moments were jarring. I guess they were meant to be funny, but fell quite flat, to me. Now I'm trying to think if there were others like that.
I so agree with this. It takes a sense of self-worth and acceptance to not be hurt by teasing and Martin does not have that kind of ego strength. (yet, at least. Maybe one day). Why does Louisa mock his vulnerabilities – don’t the villagers do enough of that? It could be argued that in some instances, it’s just her general frustration boiling over, but the scene in the forest wasn’t one of them, and for that reason bothered me particularly. They’ve just gotten married, they’re lost, and he’s trying to protect her. Why is she making fun of him? It just seemed so needless. Martin is complicated, and can be frustrating, no doubt, but, but I find Louisa to be pretty insensitive at times. What the writers were thinking is a good question. So we’re back to the issue of how inconsistently her character is written.
Agree with you all. Those moments did fall flat and left me thinking about how insensitive she was. Teasing when you don't have self esteem cuts like a knife. He doesn't react but mocking Martin is playing with fire....never know when something is going to truly hurt him.
Now that I think about it, not reacting to the mocking is all part of DM's personality pathology. He is so shut down he doesn't retaliate. Not a good choice by the writer.
Yes, those moments were jarring. I guess they were meant to be funny, but fell quite flat, to me. Now I'm trying to think if there were others like that.
In the next episode, when M offered to show L the clock he was working on, and she walked out on him, leaving him staring at empty air with the jeweler's loupe in his eye . . . I remember thinking that the writers must have meant this to be funny, but I was appalled by L's rudeness and saddened that the affection between the newlyweds had vanished so quickly and suddenly.
In the next episode, when M offered to show L the clock he was working on, and she walked out on him, leaving him staring at empty air with the jeweler's loupe in his eye . . . I remember thinking that the writers must have meant this to be funny, but I was appalled by L's rudeness and saddened that the affection between the newlyweds had vanished so quickly and suddenly.
Another really bad moment.......I couldn't help thinking that it doesn't take that much effort to sit and listen for a few minutes about something someone you love is interested. My husband drones on and on about things I could care less about...I listen.....in away. Her walking off was horrible and hurtful. I didn't get it.
Agree with you all. Those moments did fall flat and left me thinking about how insensitive she was. Teasing when you don't have self esteem cuts like a knife. He doesn't react but mocking Martin is playing with fire....never know when something is going to truly hurt him.
Now that I think about it, not reacting to the mocking is all part of DM's personality pathology. He is so shut down he doesn't retaliate. Not a good choice by the writer.
I agree that he doesn't retaliate in the moment. It's easy to imagine that he has been the source of much mocking through his years, and it would seem that his default reaction is to withdraw and avoid anything that might cause further teasing in the moment. A bit like a turtle retreating into his shell? No surprise, then, that he would appear increasingly distant to Louisa (and others). Part of his defense mechanism, I think.
But words carry weight, and although each comment may be minor, and some may be unintentionally barbed, it is unavoidable that they would begin (more accurately, continue) to pile up, leading Martin to withdraw more and more. I think each one IS hurtful to him, even if he is not able to recognize or acknowledge it himself.
I hope that in S7 we see them working together. Louisa could offer so much warmth and tenderness towards Martin, and I think that would go a long way to being a buffer between him and the rest of the village. Not that she wouldn't be frustrated at times of course, as he can be incredibly obtuse, but that she could be a safe place for him to emerge from his shell, his armour. This could allow him to feel secure, and far more likely to be vulnerable with her, setting the stage for the healthy emotional intimacy that they will need to flourish.
Another really bad moment.......I couldn't help thinking that it doesn't take that much effort to sit and listen for a few minutes about something someone you love is interested. My husband drones on and on about things I could care less about...I listen.....in away. Her walking off was horrible and hurtful. I didn't get it.
The other (or maybe ANother) odd moment in S6 was when she deliberately read out to him the schoolgirl's assessment of his poor bedside manner and lack of empathy.
I think there's something to the notion that he might not have retreated into himself quite so much if she had remained the Louisa of their wedding night, or for that matter, the kinder and gentler Louisa we saw in the last scene. Or, following on that logic, maybe it seemed to him that once again, a woman from whom he might have expected warmth and sympathy had made clear to him how unsatisfactory he was to her, and that in itself could lead to increased anxiety and withdrawal.
Maybe Louisa thinks she’s giving Martin a taste of his own medicine when she makes fun of his behavior. But the very fact that she would think that (which, admittedly, I am projecting into her mind) highlights this huge difference between them. Martin certainly says his share of insensitive things too, but they’re never calculated or malicious in the way hers can be.
Hopefully, in S7 she can come to see that venting her frustration in this way only makes him retreat more from the emotional intimacy the lack of which leads her to vent in the first place.
This discussion actually brings to mind the opposite end of the scene spectrum. One of my favorite moments is at the end of S5E7, after Louisa drops James off with Martin while she goes to Bert’s party. She leaves, and he says, “All right, James. Let’s just finish the washing up, and then we’ll have some fun.” Fun! I had to replay that several times, including with subtitles, to make sure I’d heard correctly! He spoke very softly and a little hesitantly, as if he was testing out his ability to say this word (the concept existing for him only in the abstract, after all). I thought this spoke volumes about his feelings for James and his desire to be an involved and loving parent. But - to connect this to the current topic - I doubt that he would have said this in Louisa’s presence. He feels inadequate contrasting her instinctive facility for motherhood with his own strained efforts. and wouldn’t expose that vulnerability to possible ridicule.
This discussion actually brings to mind the opposite end of the scene spectrum. One of my favorite moments is at the end of S5E7, after Louisa drops James off with Martin while she goes to Bert’s party. She leaves, and he says, “All right, James. Let’s just finish the washing up, and then we’ll have some fun.” Fun! I had to replay that several times, including with subtitles, to make sure I’d heard correctly! He spoke very softly and a little hesitantly, as if he was testing out his ability to say this word (the concept existing for him only in the abstract, after all). I thought this spoke volumes about his feelings for James and his desire to be an involved and loving parent. But - to connect this to the current topic - I doubt that he would have said this in Louisa’s presence. He feels inadequate contrasting her instinctive facility for motherhood with his own strained efforts. and wouldn’t expose that vulnerability to possible ridicule.
At that point in S5E7 Louisa moved out w/ James and Martin not only misses Louisa but terribly misses James around his home. He tried to hide from Louisa that he was glad she asked him to mind their son.
I don't think at this point in the series neither one of them is going to develop a sense of humor. Martin doesn't seem to "get" a joke when told to him. He is carrying much baggage from his sad youth, and Louisa is carrying much baggage of abandonment by her parents from her youth.
Nobody is discussing the platonic marriage bed they are sharing. Louisa has always got her back facing him in bed, while Martin sleeps on his back. I can understand S5 when he shared her bed and she had just delivered--and then circumstances arose which led him to be with her through that series. Okay. The big "what happened" between the end of S5 and the marriage at the beginning of S6. That's why I always keep in mind the fan fiction story of mmDerdekea "The Third Time" -- it makes the progression to the marriage more sense even though Mona's story didn't end in a marriage.
At that point in S5E7 Louisa moved out w/ James and Martin not only misses Louisa but terribly misses James around his home. He tried to hide from Louisa that he was glad she asked him to mind their son.
I don't think at this point in the series neither one of them is going to develop a sense of humor. Martin doesn't seem to "get" a joke when told to him. He is carrying much baggage from his sad youth, and Louisa is carrying much baggage of abandonment by her parents from her youth.
Nobody is discussing the platonic marriage bed they are sharing. Louisa has always got her back facing him in bed, while Martin sleeps on his back. I can understand S5 when he shared her bed and she had just delivered--and then circumstances arose which led him to be with her through that series. Okay. The big "what happened" between the end of S5 and the marriage at the beginning of S6. That's why I always keep in mind the fan fiction story of mmDerdekea "The Third Time" -- it makes the progression to the marriage more sense even though Mona's story didn't end in a marriage.
I can never decide just how "platonic" their relationship was in S5. It's just not plausible on the one hand that these two people, who we are meant to believe have always been madly in love with each other, slept in the same bed every night for at least 3 months and still maintained a platonic relationship. But on the other hand, their actual interactions that we are allowed to see don't show any sign at all of physical affection or intimacy. And I just find it hard to believe that a physical relationship at night wouldn't have some impact on their private behavior with each other during the day. Just another way in which some aspects of this show don't bear very close inspection.
At that point in S5E7 Louisa moved out w/ James and Martin not only misses Louisa but terribly misses James around his home. He tried to hide from Louisa that he was glad she asked him to mind their son.
I don't think at this point in the series neither one of them is going to develop a sense of humor. Martin doesn't seem to "get" a joke when told to him. He is carrying much baggage from his sad youth, and Louisa is carrying much baggage of abandonment by her parents from her youth.
Nobody is discussing the platonic marriage bed they are sharing. Louisa has always got her back facing him in bed, while Martin sleeps on his back. I can understand S5 when he shared her bed and she had just delivered--and then circumstances arose which led him to be with her through that series. Okay. The big "what happened" between the end of S5 and the marriage at the beginning of S6. That's why I always keep in mind the fan fiction story of mmDerdekea "The Third Time" -- it makes the progression to the marriage more sense even though Mona's story didn't end in a marriage.
I love Mona's story. I have to believe that is close to what happened. Louisa was not disappointed to be alone with Martin at the honeymoon lodge and Martin loved the aspect that they wouldn't be plagued by the phone....oh what might have been. And I suspect anything physical went down the drain from there.
New Park. "Platonic" means that the relationship is not sexual but at least there is a meaningful relationship. In much of series 5 and 6, Martin and Louisa seemed like two people living as roommates, under obligation to take care of their child, with nothing meaningful between them. We grasp onto nuances in the scripts to infer that there must be a sexual relationship between the two. But Martin may be a man with low testerone and limited interest in sex. His back story is that he was an ascetic, celibate surgeon with no interest in women. It was always Louisa who initiated even a kiss. At the marriage proposal Martin did not embrace Louisa She threw herself at him and likely initiated the sex. She later described their sexual relationship as "on the few occasions". In what was probably the four weeks before the first wedding, for a newly sexual couple to have sex only a few times is unusual. Lack of an intimacy with Martin could be one source of her frustration with him. I think that should be one of the first things the marriage counselor addresses, but I doubt that will happen in the show
I'm one of those who much prefer the writers leave the sex and stuff (ie. shenanigans) to our imaginations (see recent posts for examples of how it heats up the imaginations in viewers). It's quite clear they love each other romantically - but the writers need to show how they can make each other happy as a family/couple - how DM and L define "happy" not how we would define it for ourselves. Or at least, that's what I'm hoping the PTB will do --
Comments
This would definitely help, I agree. She makes assumptions or jumps to conclusions in a way that he (or anyone, maybe) is unable to follow. Their exchange about Carrie Wilson’s party was another example, full of assumptions on her part that he has no way of knowing:
L: PC Penhale’s roped me into going to his party later. Probably going to be terrible.
M: Ghastly. Obviously.
L: So I just wondered if you were going anyway. Or if you wanted to meet me there. It doesn’t have to be for the whole thing.
M: Ummm [pauses]. Yes.
L: [pauses]. Yes. ?
M: Penhale’s party at Mrs. Wilson’s hotel. I’ll be there.
L: Oh, right. ? [looks at him brightly]
M: What?
L: Nothing. It’s just…I thought you hated parties.
M: Uh...well, it depends.
L: Why are you so keen to go to this one, then?
M: I’m not. You just asked me to.
L: I did. I’m just surprised that you’re planning on going, that’s all.
M: Well, so you asked me to go because you expected me to say no.
L: No, I asked you because I hoped you’d say yes.
M: I did say yes.
L: Well, it’s just usually I have to twist your arm to do anything… [phone rings]
M: I’m sorry; I have no idea what it is you want me to say. [in the usual manner, the conversation is then cut short by an emergency].
I’d like Louisa to let Martin be who he is. She defends him to other people, notably his mother, and she has told him that he’s extraordinary and different, but when it comes down to it, she doesn’t really walk that walk.
For them to survive as a couple and a family, he has to make changes in his behavior, of course. But it seems to me she extends reasonable expectations about what’s necessary in their relationship to less reasonable expectations that he change his essential self to conform to her vision of “normal” behavior. She wants him to be more personable, friendlier to the villagers, more sociable, because…because that’s how most people are and it’s the social norm. But those things aren’t important to Martin and run counter to his own sense of what’s meaningful. His values are his values, and his behavior reflects them. She can judge them, if she wants, but it’s not her business to dictate them.
I'm having a little difficulty formulating my thoughts here coherently. I don’t want to sound as if I’m bashing Louisa; as we know, M. is a Difficult Person, and she does love him. But I think she’ll get a lot farther if she responds to who he actually is rather than what she wants him to be.
I also find it hard to phrase my thoughts, or perhaps even think, coherently about Louisa.
We can think, I guess, that Louisa's behavior varies arbitrarily, according to the whims of the writers and/or the dictates of the plot. I tend to think, that while there's some of that going on, that people, including Louisa, can hold contradictory thoughts or opinions simultaneously, perhaps without even realizing it. So I think it's possible that Louisa intends on some level to accept Martin as he is, but she can't quite admit to herself that the opinion of others about Martin matters to her, and that she doesn't like it when his behavior is off-putting or odd. and she'd like him to be less of a square peg in a round hole at least sometimes.
Where I think she may not be being honest with herself is in overestimating how much she can tolerate of his limited capacity for intimacy and demonstrative affection. Every once in a while, the dam bursts and he blurts out something "nice" and she allows herself to think that he's changed, or that she can live off of these occasional outbursts. But she can't really, and I think the push and pull of that explains some of her erratic behavior. Sometimes she really sees, or thinks she sees that he can't give her what she needs, and then she leaves, but she really wants him so much that she allows herself to believe that what he can occasionally give her is enough.
That, really, is what I think the problem or the drama of S7 will be -- this time, words won't be enough, and he will have to demonstrate over a period of time that he is capable of giving her what she needs from him. Or course, she has to be clear about what that is, in a way that she has never been capable of, so far.
This gets to the question of how legitimate it is to ask someone to change for you, or should you just accept them as they are. First of all, I think people can change their behavior, with prompting and reinforcement. Maybe not who they"are" but some behaviors. And second, I think it is entirely legitimate to state clearly what you need from that person, and what's a deal-breaker if it's not present. Then, stay or go, depending on what happens, accepting that the person has done what they're capable of in the circumstances. But stop wafflling.
And that goes for both of them.
Along those lines, I don't believe it is incumbent on Martin to request those things. I believe deep inside that he realizes his behavior is anti social and rude. I don't think he spends much time thinking about it or if he really cares in his conscious mind. But I think deep inside it is embarrassing to him and he'd rather not be that way......hence the return visit to the folk singer with bronchitis and apology, his saying to the seashell lady "ignoring the symptoms doesn't mean the condition doesn't exist' ". Or to Mike Pruddy...."if the army would provide treatment, to help you have more control over your life, would you accept it."
In all those statements he is ironically speaking of himself. I, however think that Louisa needs a good talking to by an outside party. She will have to be shown the best things that she can do to make things work....if she wants to. I can't see Martin saying, "hugging and kissing are not my forte, I know, but can you accept it because I love you?" Too far inside and too embarrassing.
God, I love this program. It is one of the most sophisticated I've ever seen packaged in the simple package of a grumpy doctor I in a small village in Cornwall....brilliant!
I think this is what they have to do to keep viewers interested. A consistent Louisa who knows what she wants and who she is will go a long way in helping this show pull itself back up. If she is the cornerstone, then we will see if the two of them can be a couple.
I think that they should fast forward the show a few years and let the show catch up closer to the actors' ages. We've had two seasons with infants. I think it's time to move them into another stage of marriage and parenthood.
Bingo! NewPark. You've said it so well. And so illustrative of the conundrum that is this show. Humans and all their myriad frailties and paradoxes!
I keep remembering through it all........ Louisa is a teacher, hopeful as any teacher for her charges to learn. And Martin has said he can learn... and continues to learn in his profession, we know. I wonder if those two images will end up playing out in S7 or beyond? I think we saw both in S6 at times.
And dare I say also...........Aunt Joan called them chalk and cheese. Aunt Ruth says he must change or leave her (LGE) alone. Will there be a fairy tale ending, though I'm sure with surprising twists and turns along the way? Or would the production company dare to give us a not happily ever after ending?
My guess is somewhere in the middle lies the solution.........a being together more or less happy ending, but inset with another pointed issue that shows the reality of most relationships--that they can go on but will have their moments of ups and downs.
I look forward to their S7 interactions and how they get sorted. But after that, I'd have no objections to seeing them and JH age a bit. I would be happy to see them a bit down the road in their marriage after S7. Preferably with another child. I've so enjoyed watching Doc with JH, and wonder how a second, preferably little girl, could be worked into the show. Doc with one child has been precious to watch. Doc with a second and a girl at that could be a hoot in my imagination.
A really interesting thing to see or imagine is when James Henry begins to talk and establish his own personality. That, I think, will be fascinating and therapeutic for Martin. He won't be able to stay cozy in his shell anymore.....that is if he's willing to be a good father.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APhPLHvXtxQ
I would love to see Louisa develop a sense of humor. Because of lacking that, its so easy for her to over-react to and over-think situations in less than positive ways.
Yes, and not a mean-spirited one! Personally, I found the times that Louisa mocked Martin (sitting at his desk, "I'm being you" and in the forest when he's scared of the horse, "this is my final warning!") to be disconcerting. Yes, it's amusing in that Martin can be a bit ridiculous, but I find it unkind.
Perhaps that was not the intention of the writers, and others may interpret it differently, but why have Louisa mock him in this way? Hasn't Martin had enough of people teasing and ridiculing him? Does Martin really need his own wife to be mocking him?
I so agree with this. It takes a sense of self-worth and acceptance to not be hurt by teasing and Martin does not have that kind of ego strength. (yet, at least. Maybe one day). Why does Louisa mock his vulnerabilities – don’t the villagers do enough of that? It could be argued that in some instances, it’s just her general frustration boiling over, but the scene in the forest wasn’t one of them, and for that reason bothered me particularly. They’ve just gotten married, they’re lost, and he’s trying to protect her. Why is she making fun of him? It just seemed so needless. Martin is complicated, and can be frustrating, no doubt, but, but I find Louisa to be pretty insensitive at times. What the writers were thinking is a good question. So we’re back to the issue of how inconsistently her character is written.
Yes, those moments were jarring. I guess they were meant to be funny, but fell quite flat, to me. Now I'm trying to think if there were others like that.
Agree with you all. Those moments did fall flat and left me thinking about how insensitive she was. Teasing when you don't have self esteem cuts like a knife. He doesn't react but mocking Martin is playing with fire....never know when something is going to truly hurt him.
Now that I think about it, not reacting to the mocking is all part of DM's personality pathology. He is so shut down he doesn't retaliate. Not a good choice by the writer.
In the next episode, when M offered to show L the clock he was working on, and she walked out on him, leaving him staring at empty air with the jeweler's loupe in his eye . . . I remember thinking that the writers must have meant this to be funny, but I was appalled by L's rudeness and saddened that the affection between the newlyweds had vanished so quickly and suddenly.
Another really bad moment.......I couldn't help thinking that it doesn't take that much effort to sit and listen for a few minutes about something someone you love is interested. My husband drones on and on about things I could care less about...I listen.....in away. Her walking off was horrible and hurtful. I didn't get it.
I agree that he doesn't retaliate in the moment. It's easy to imagine that he has been the source of much mocking through his years, and it would seem that his default reaction is to withdraw and avoid anything that might cause further teasing in the moment. A bit like a turtle retreating into his shell? No surprise, then, that he would appear increasingly distant to Louisa (and others). Part of his defense mechanism, I think.
But words carry weight, and although each comment may be minor, and some may be unintentionally barbed, it is unavoidable that they would begin (more accurately, continue) to pile up, leading Martin to withdraw more and more. I think each one IS hurtful to him, even if he is not able to recognize or acknowledge it himself.
I hope that in S7 we see them working together. Louisa could offer so much warmth and tenderness towards Martin, and I think that would go a long way to being a buffer between him and the rest of the village. Not that she wouldn't be frustrated at times of course, as he can be incredibly obtuse, but that she could be a safe place for him to emerge from his shell, his armour. This could allow him to feel secure, and far more likely to be vulnerable with her, setting the stage for the healthy emotional intimacy that they will need to flourish.
The other (or maybe ANother) odd moment in S6 was when she deliberately read out to him the schoolgirl's assessment of his poor bedside manner and lack of empathy.
I think there's something to the notion that he might not have retreated into himself quite so much if she had remained the Louisa of their wedding night, or for that matter, the kinder and gentler Louisa we saw in the last scene. Or, following on that logic, maybe it seemed to him that once again, a woman from whom he might have expected warmth and sympathy had made clear to him how unsatisfactory he was to her, and that in itself could lead to increased anxiety and withdrawal.
Hopefully, in S7 she can come to see that venting her frustration in this way only makes him retreat more from the emotional intimacy the lack of which leads her to vent in the first place.
This discussion actually brings to mind the opposite end of the scene spectrum. One of my favorite moments is at the end of S5E7, after Louisa drops James off with Martin while she goes to Bert’s party. She leaves, and he says, “All right, James. Let’s just finish the washing up, and then we’ll have some fun.” Fun! I had to replay that several times, including with subtitles, to make sure I’d heard correctly! He spoke very softly and a little hesitantly, as if he was testing out his ability to say this word (the concept existing for him only in the abstract, after all). I thought this spoke volumes about his feelings for James and his desire to be an involved and loving parent. But - to connect this to the current topic - I doubt that he would have said this in Louisa’s presence. He feels inadequate contrasting her instinctive facility for motherhood with his own strained efforts. and wouldn’t expose that vulnerability to possible ridicule.
At that point in S5E7 Louisa moved out w/ James and Martin not only misses Louisa but terribly misses James around his home. He tried to hide from Louisa that he was glad she asked him to mind their son.
I don't think at this point in the series neither one of them is going to develop a sense of humor. Martin doesn't seem to "get" a joke when told to him. He is carrying much baggage from his sad youth, and Louisa is carrying much baggage of abandonment by her parents from her youth.
Nobody is discussing the platonic marriage bed they are sharing. Louisa has always got her back facing him in bed, while Martin sleeps on his back. I can understand S5 when he shared her bed and she had just delivered--and then circumstances arose which led him to be with her through that series. Okay. The big "what happened" between the end of S5 and the marriage at the beginning of S6. That's why I always keep in mind the fan fiction story of mmDerdekea "The Third Time" -- it makes the progression to the marriage more sense even though Mona's story didn't end in a marriage.
I can never decide just how "platonic" their relationship was in S5. It's just not plausible on the one hand that these two people, who we are meant to believe have always been madly in love with each other, slept in the same bed every night for at least 3 months and still maintained a platonic relationship. But on the other hand, their actual interactions that we are allowed to see don't show any sign at all of physical affection or intimacy. And I just find it hard to believe that a physical relationship at night wouldn't have some impact on their private behavior with each other during the day. Just another way in which some aspects of this show don't bear very close inspection.
I love Mona's story. I have to believe that is close to what happened. Louisa was not disappointed to be alone with Martin at the honeymoon lodge and Martin loved the aspect that they wouldn't be plagued by the phone....oh what might have been. And I suspect anything physical went down the drain from there.