Shooting at Paris satirical magazine office

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  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    What's that got to do with anything? I live in a crappy suburb, and infact my nearest highstreet resembles downtown Mogadishu. That does not mean I'm more prone to violence or an excuse if I decide to murder anyone who offends me.

    It has to do with where the radical French Muslims come from doesn't it.

    I'm doubting they are coming from chateaux.
  • Chuck WaoChuck Wao Posts: 2,724
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    bollywood wrote: »
    People have a right to not be bullied by cartoonists who want to tell them how to practice or not practice their religion when they are moderate Muslims

    Or Christians or Jews.


    ..so dont read them then - simples - :)
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    So you're not going to answer the damn question of whether draconian laws should be brought in to protect Islam and every other religion against satire to the same degree?

    Show me where I was asked about draconian laws before, as you made the allegation.

    Or retract it. Whatever.
  • jediknight2k1jediknight2k1 Posts: 6,892
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    bollywood wrote: »
    It has to do with where the radical French Muslims come from doesn't it.

    I'm doubting they are coming from chateaux.

    What makes the killers were 'radicals' ?
  • Stiffy78Stiffy78 Posts: 26,260
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    Cartoonists have a right not to be bullied by apologists who want to tell them what they should or shouldn't be allowed to draw.
  • be more pacificbe more pacific Posts: 19,061
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    bollywood wrote: »
    Show me where I was asked about draconian laws before, as you made the allegation.

    Or retract it. Whatever.
    I didn't make any allegation. I asked the question "But how can you defend Muslims against "abuse" / satire without resorting to draconian blasphemy laws which outlaw mockery of all religions?" because you stated that Muslims should be defended from "abuse" by cartoonists.
  • Red NovemberRed November Posts: 1,546
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    bollywood wrote: »
    Many French Muslims are radicalized in prison though.

    Sounds doubtful.
    Many muslims are radicalised in prison - why are you using that as an excuse? If they didn't commit any crimes, they wouldn't be in prison in the first place. It's hardly a get out clause.

    Reading through this thread, you also seem obsessed with 'what do french muslims think?' What do you expect people to respond with? 'The same as other muslims, but with a hint of garlic'?
  • MargMckMargMck Posts: 24,115
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    bollywood wrote: »
    People have a right to not be bullied by cartoonists who want to tell them how to practice or not practice their religion when they are moderate Muslims

    Or Christians or Jews.

    Oh the bullying word is back.
    The murder victims were bullies.
    Shame on you for that one.
  • John_HuxleyJohn_Huxley Posts: 2,140
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    bollywood wrote: »
    If Hebdo was only mocking terrorists I would give them a medal.

    They weren't they were denigrating religion and persons who didn't deserve it.

    More than mocking.

    Anyway you are late jumping in to the discussion and this was already talked about..

    You asked how and I told you how.
    Are you saying that Muhammad, as he is portrayed in Islam and the texts, of a person who committed pedophilia, enslaved people, ordered the killing of disbelievers, ordered the subjugation of disbelievers, ordered that ex-muslims should be killed and that women are inferior to men and should be subservient to them.

    This Muhammad does not deserved to be ridiculed?
    Since he committed atrocities far greater then the terrorists, why do you think it is ok to mock the terrorist but not someone who engaged in mass slaughter?
  • AshbourneAshbourne Posts: 3,036
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    bollywood wrote: »
    Many French Muslims are radicalized in prison though.

    Sounds doubtful.

    So now many French Muslims are criminals? Could you big them up any more?
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    Are you saying that Muhammad, as he is portrayed in Islam and the texts, of a person who committed pedophilia, enslaved people, ordered the killing of disbelievers, ordered the subjugation of disbelievers, ordered that ex-muslims should be killed and that women are inferior to men and should be subservient to them.

    This Muhammad does not deserved to be ridiculed?
    Since he committed atrocities far greater then the terrorists, why do you think it is ok to mock the terrorist but not someone who engaged in mass slaughter?

    I don't see how it is anyone's business if French Muslims aren't doing that stuff now and don't believe in it.

    Any more than an atheist would want to have it continually rubbed in their faces about something Ayn Rand said or did.

    All it does is cause more hatred, more polarization.
  • DinkyDoobieDinkyDoobie Posts: 17,786
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    bollywood wrote: »
    I don't see how it is anyone's business if French Muslims aren't doing that stuff now and don't believe in it..

    They are doing some of it, they just killed 12 people for blaspheming the prophet, and some jews... because crazy muslims hate jews.

    Well, not exactly crazy muslims, mehdi hasan said anti-semitism is muslims dirty little secret.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    They are doing some of it, they just killed 12 people for blaspheming the prophet, and some jews... because crazy muslims hate jews.

    Well, not exactly crazy muslims, mehdi hasan said anti-semitism is muslims dirty little secret.

    So is that all Muslims?

    What is the purpose of mocking a religion you don't understand and making assumptions about what they believe or don't believe?

    It seems like the religion is foreign to many posters who are speaking about it with so much certainty.

    Yet if I ask a simple question like ok what do French Muslims believe, no one is sure.

    Really if you know so little then use some restraint.
  • DinkyDoobieDinkyDoobie Posts: 17,786
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    bollywood wrote: »
    So is that all Muslims?.

    It's a bloody lot of them, not only are they shooting cartoonists on the streets of paris but they are imprisoning, flogging and murdering blasphemers all over the world.

    For a misinterpretation a lot of people seem to have gotten it completely wrong.

    Of course it isn't that they have gotten it wrong, one of the main arguments against what they did is a matter of circumstance.

    That it didn't happen in an islamic state and go through due process but no muslim who shares their beliefs, and there is a lot of them, perhaps you've seen the protests? actually believes they should be allowed to do what they did.

    So much for your punching down argument.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    MargMck wrote: »
    Oh the bullying word is back.
    The murder victims were bullies.
    Shame on you for that one.

    Shame on you for shaming another poster for his opinion,

    So much for free speech.

    Are you saying you can't be a bully and a victim?

    Are you trying to use a shoddy debate tactic that anyone who doesn't like the cartoons and doesn't identify with Charlie, could not be sad about the deaths?

    That's offensive.
  • MargMckMargMck Posts: 24,115
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    Let's come back to this one:
    bollywood wrote: »
    People have a right to not be bullied by cartoonists who want to tell them how to practice or not practice their religion when they are moderate Muslims
    Or Christians or Jews.

    So were the Muslims who murdered the journalists in any way victims of bullying by the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists? Perhaps because they were terrorists you will give them a portion of the blame. Do you think it was the equivalent of a "fair fight", a 50-50, Bullying Cartoonists V Militant Islamists?

    Perhaps you could express it % wise as to who is to blame. I see it as Cartoonists 0%, Terrorists 100%. Let's have your breakdown, please Bolly.

    And can you give examples of where the cartoonists told "moderate Muslims" how to practice their religion?
    Finally, tell us where this "right" you mention is decreed.
  • John_HuxleyJohn_Huxley Posts: 2,140
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    bollywood wrote: »
    I don't see how it is anyone's business if French Muslims aren't doing that stuff now and don't believe in it.
    .
    Are you saying you know that no French Muslim believes in any of the following as promoted by the quran.

    1.Disbelievers should be put into hell
    2.Disbelievers should be killed
    3. Muhammad married and had sex with 9 year old Aisha
    4.Women should be segregated and should hold oneself subservient to men

    Could you please provide evidence of your blanket statement of what French Muslims believe, since you are speaking of it as fact.
  • exlordlucanexlordlucan Posts: 35,375
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    bollywood wrote: »

    Yet if I ask a simple question like ok what do French Muslims believe, no one is sure.

    .

    You lived there so how about you tell us?

    Is it different to what other muslims believe?
  • Keyser_Soze1Keyser_Soze1 Posts: 25,182
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    bollywood wrote: »
    People have a right to not be bullied by cartoonists who want to tell them how to practice or not practice their religion when they are moderate Muslims

    Or Christians or Jews.

    Don't read the magazine then.

    Simple.

    Innocent people also have the right to draw satirical cartoons in a free society with being slaughtered by repulsive, dark age savages.
  • AftershowAftershow Posts: 10,021
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    bollywood wrote: »
    So much for free speech.

    Why do you keep pretending anyone is impinging on your freedom of speech?

    This has already been explained to you.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    You lived there so how about you tell us?

    Is it different to what other muslims believe?

    Dunno.

    I'm saying if people don't know why make assumptions.

    I'm speculating that many Western Muslims have beliefs against killing and such.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    Aftershow wrote: »
    Why do you keep pretending anyone is impinging on your freedom of speech?

    This has already been explained to you.

    I've been shamed for my free speech.
  • MargMckMargMck Posts: 24,115
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    MargMck wrote: »
    Let's come back to this one

    So were the Muslims who murdered the journalists in any way victims of bullying by the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists? Perhaps because they were terrorists you will give them a portion of the blame. Do you think it was the equivalent of a "fair fight", a 50-50, Bullying Cartoonists V Militant Islamists?

    Perhaps you could express it % wise as to who is to blame. I see it as Cartoonists 0%, Terrorists 100%. Let's have your breakdown, please Bolly.

    And can you give examples of where the cartoonists told "moderate Muslims" how to practice their religion?
    Finally, tell us where this "right" you mention is decreed.
    bollywood wrote: »
    Dunno.

    I'm saying if people don't know why make assumptions.
    I'm speculating that many Western Muslims have beliefs against killing and such.

    Ah there you are. Could you answer the above please, thanks.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    MargMck wrote: »
    Let's come back to this one:



    So were the Muslims who murdered the journalists in any way victims of bullying by the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists? Perhaps because they were terrorists you will give them a portion of the blame. Do you think it was the equivalent of a "fair fight", a 50-50, Bullying Cartoonists V Militant Islamists?

    Perhaps you could express it % wise as to who is to blame. I see it as Cartoonists 0%, Terrorists 100%. Let's have your breakdown, please Bolly.

    And can you give examples of where the cartoonists told "moderate Muslims" how to practice their religion?
    Finally, tell us where this "right" you mention is decreed.

    You can't really give a percentage to a complex interaction.

    The terrorists weren't victims.

    The cartoonists were the victims and their deaths are sad.

    They did put themselves in harm's way though.

    I'm not going to lie and say they didn't.

    I feel bad for Muslims who didn't have anything to do with this and wi be maligned.

    I feel bad for anyone who gets retaliated against by Muslims.

    The cartoons went too far.

    Don't think the cartoonists were necessarily heroes either.

    That we don't have to say they were heroes just because.

    If the cartoonists had just mocked terrorists that would be fine.

    Then I would call them heroes.
  • DinkyDoobieDinkyDoobie Posts: 17,786
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    the cartoonists went too far, put themselves in harms way and they aren't heroes.

    Not sure about you but if there are people out there who lay the gauntlet down, that you will be killed if you dare to do something that you have every right to do and you are one of the few people with the balls to do it and yell come at me bro.

    If you are going to get up in the face of extremists and yell i don't care and acknowledge the consequences like they did, they're pretty heroic in my eyes.

    And here you are, talking about how they offended too many people.

    Being killed for offending someone is far worse than anything they would ever do to anyone else and it isn't like they set out to offend every muslim but here they are, here you are, saying how they offended too many people, not by people killing in the name of their god but mocking the extremists who would do it.
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