St. Nicholas was Greek - would anyone have any objection to an actor with non-Mediterranean skin taking the role?
Oh don't start again Johnny. Your constant "Oh would anyone mind this, and would anyone mind that statements are tiresome. No, I shouldn't think anyone would mind anyway. But while St. Nicholas is greek (Turkish now actually if you want to be pedantic - the land borders changed), Father Christmas is not. Father Christmas is based on St. Nicholas. But only since mid Victorian times. Before that he was a character associated mainly with adults and he seemed to promote the eating an d drinking at Yuletide to celebrate the birth of Christ. He is not St. Nicholas. Santa Claus however is supposedly so.
All your constant "it doesn't matter if it's a woman, or it would be wonderful if it's a black man etc." are tedious. I talk about people in general. I generalise. If it was me, I wouldn't care if the Doctor is any colour, as long as he's male. And I'm not even going to engage in a "why can't it be a woman" debate because I'm bored of those.
Wasn't the part offered to Peter Capaldi and no auditions held with any other actors??? If this is the case then no one else stood a chance. The role was ring fenced for someone in particular.
Wasn't the part offered to Peter Capaldi and no auditions held with any other actors??? If this is the case then no one else stood a chance. The role was ring fenced for someone in particular.
That's surely better than what happened in the 1980s when the role went from being offered to well regarded actors to "any old ****er with an Equity card"
The quote doesn't say that a black actor turned down the role or was even offered the role. It says that Paterson Joseph didn't get the role, which is a very different thing entirely.
Also, this refers to the casting of the 11th Dr not the 12th.
I'd read the quote again: "I was rather disappointed that Paterson Joseph didn't get it last time, although I've loved Matts Eleven.) And yes, I have no doubt there will be. (I know one black actor who was already offered the part of the Doctor, and who turned it down.)"
Two black main characters in 50 years!!! That's really inclusive. I for one was hoping moffatt would consider someone who was not Caucasian and was very disappointed again!! Oh well I guess it's never going to happen because the quote.. Best actor gets the job... End quote.
Why do you think it's never going to happen? Because moffat is racist? Because all TV writers are racist?
If you are talking about TV in the 60s and 70s, then yes, writers and producers (and lots of other people) were racist, there is no way of denying that, but at the same time that is true about virtually every TV show in any country at the time. You cannot single out Doctor Who because it didn't show black people.
Since the restart in 2005, I really see no reason to complain.
We've seen 7 main companions, ALL of whom either were black themselves or had non-Caucasian boyfriends, fiances, husbands, children/best friends. Lots of other characters have also featured in single episode roles.
Furthermore, diversity is not only about skin colour.
Within 8 years, we have seen doctors and companions from different parts of Britain, various age groups and social backgrounds. I'd say it matters just as much to show someone with Rose's family background on TV (not just reality TV!) to help kids identify.
And finally, as a sci-fi show, the spread of diversity will always be slightly different from real life, because of the aliens. You need to allow space for the likes of Madame Vastra.
In short, I wouldn't worry that there will never be a black doctor.
Wasn't the part offered to Peter Capaldi and no auditions held with any other actors??? If this is the case then no one else stood a chance. The role was ring fenced for someone in particular.
I'm happy to stand corrected here, but I think the only actors out of the 12 to audition for the part (although obviously lots of discussions go on with various possibes and 'feelers' are put out) are Sylvester, Paul and Matt.
I've definitely seen Sylester's audition but can't remember what DVD it's on. He's great in it too. (and the producer had already made up his mind.)
I'm happy to stand corrected here, but I think the only actors out of the 12 to audition for the part (although obviously lots of discussions go on with various possibes and 'feelers' are put out) are Sylvester, Paul and Matt.
I've definitely seen Sylester's audition but can't remember what DVD it's on. He's great in it too. (and the producer had already made up his mind.)
I don't think Gaiman is meaning the actor turned down the 12th Doctor. It was probably when they were casting the 11th.
Though it probably wasn't Chiwetel Ejiofor, not if this clip is anything to go by - http://youtu.be/lL0U650NYZs. He would be, without a doubt, a dream choice for the Doctor. I don't think colour even needs to come into it cause he's one of the best actors around, full stop.
I remember popbitch saying Chiwetel Ejiofor had been offered the role ahead of Matt Smith and turned it down, Paterson Joseph I doubt was ever asked as he would hardly have turned down the biggest role of his career.
Wasn't the part offered to Peter Capaldi and no auditions held with any other actors??? If this is the case then no one else stood a chance. The role was ring fenced for someone in particular.
Jenna has talked about reading with other actors.
So unless she was fibbing to keep up the smokescreen (this was said before Capaldi was announced) then there were auditions even if Moffat had Capaldi in mind from the start.
So unless she was fibbing to keep up the smokescreen (this was said before Capaldi was announced) then there were auditions even if Moffat had Capaldi in mind from the start.
She never said the actors were auditioning. She just said that she had been reading with other actors. Perhaps this could be other actors who are already signed up for the show? It isn't just Moffat who said there were no auditions held. There was Ben Stephenson who said it too.
This whole "Black Doctor" talk is so tiresome, and I think it's a bit racist of Gaiman to say that not casting a black Dr was a lost opportunity as this indicates Gaiman thinks that a Dr should have been cast on colour foremost. Surely if Moffat thought Capaldi was the best man for the job he should have cast him - not then thought, oh I better cast a black man instead though...
The problem with this incessant carping on about casting a person of colour as the Dr is that when (if...when) it eventually happens, many people and possibly myself included, will feel that this person will have been cast because "we better have a black Dr" as opposed to appointing the best person. I mean...Idris Elba....fine actor, but is he REALLY an obvious choice for the Dr, unless you're immediately looking for a black man to cast...?
I think it's a bit racist of Gaiman to say that not casting a black Dr was a lost opportunity as this indicates Gaiman thinks that a Dr should have been cast on colour foremost. Surely if Moffat thought Capaldi was the best man for the job he should have cast him - not then thought, oh I better cast a black man instead though...
These are not the same thing, I hope you realise. It would be just as fair as saying that not hiring Capaldi would be a wasted opportunity to hire an older actor. That equally doesn't mean that Capaldi was hired for his age. But if his age happens to be something that can be used to add definition to his incarnation of the Doctor...
I remember popbitch saying Chiwetel Ejiofor had been offered the role ahead of Matt Smith and turned it down, Paterson Joseph I doubt was ever asked as he would hardly have turned down the biggest role of his career.
Yes that was the rumour doing the rounds after Matt Smith was cast. I think Matt's been brilliant and I think Chiwetel Ejiofor would have been as well.
Don't all laugh at once. I'm pretty sure Gaiman worked with him and his production company many moons ago. He used to be a big BBC star and was making those moves into acting, so it's possible the Beeb might have asked him years ago, maybe even before the RTD reboot. And he's a SF/fantasy fan.
This whole "Black Doctor" talk is so tiresome, and I think it's a bit racist of Gaiman to say that not casting a black Dr was a lost opportunity as this indicates Gaiman thinks that a Dr should have been cast on colour foremost. Surely if Moffat thought Capaldi was the best man for the job he should have cast him - not then thought, oh I better cast a black man instead though...
The problem with this incessant carping on about casting a person of colour as the Dr is that when (if...when) it eventually happens, many people and possibly myself included, will feel that this person will have been cast because "we better have a black Dr" as opposed to appointing the best person. I mean...Idris Elba....fine actor, but is he REALLY an obvious choice for the Dr, unless you're immediately looking for a black man to cast...?
I would have loved to have seen Idris as the Doctor. Not because he is black, which is irrelevant to me, but because I think he's one of the best actors around currently, and he would, I'm sure, have turned in a great performance.
And that's the criteria for choosing any actor to play the Doctor.
Happily, Peter fulfils the criteria in spades, so apart from a little personal sadness that it wasn't Idris, I'm happy.
I would have loved to have seen Idris as the Doctor. Not because he is black, which is irrelevant to me, but because I think he's one of the best actors around currently, and he would, I'm sure, have turned in a great performance.
And that's the criteria for choosing any actor to play the Doctor.
Happily, Peter fulfils the criteria in spades, so apart from a little personal sadness that it wasn't Idris, I'm happy.
But Granny, you're bound to disappointed. You have a little crush on Idris! And quite right too! My sister said he should have been in a naked sex scene in Luther because not doing one was "a slight against licence payers!"
Don't all laugh at once. I'm pretty sure Gaiman worked with him and his production company many moons ago. He used to be a big BBC star and was making those moves into acting, so it's possible the Beeb might have asked him years ago, maybe even before the RTD reboot. And he's a SF/fantasy fan.
Lenny Henry co-created Neverwhere with Gaiman.
I doubt he was ever offered the role of the Doctor though.
But Granny, you're bound to disappointed. You have a little crush on Idris! And quite right too! My sister said he should have been in a naked sex scene in Luther because not doing one was "a slight against licence payers!"
You've no idea how difficult it was for me to compose a post about Idris without mentioning his extreme sexiness. :D
I didn't want everyone to think that was the only reason I would have wanted him for the Doctor.
I think it's grossly disrespectful of Gaiman to discuss the casting process - especially in this instance, where the eventual Doctor comes off as being something of a ringer - a second-best replacement who the producers simply settled for.
The thing that rings out loud & clear in this instance, is that Gaiman seemingly wants a black Doctor for the sake of having a black Doctor. That is little more than flogging an agenda of tokenism - which I find grotesquely offensive - and ironically, massively racist.
Even if someone (white or black) *had* turned down the chance to be Eleven before Matt Smith was cast - I could only conclude whomever turned the part down saw what the producers (in thier attempts to ethnically stunt cast) failed to see. (ie: That they weren't right for the part.)
I've grown up with every Doctor since Pertwee - and without a doubt, Matt Smith is *my* Doctor. The definitive article. The embodiment of the role. He was fated to have the part.
I think it's grossly disrespectful of Gaiman to discuss the casting process - especially in this instance, where the eventual Doctor comes off as being something of a ringer - a second-best replacement who the producers simply settled for.
The thing that rings out loud & clear in this instance, is that Gaiman seemingly wants a black Doctor for the sake of having a black Doctor. That is little more than flogging an agenda of tokenism - which I find grotesquely offensive - and ironically, massively racist.
Even if someone (white or black) *had* turned down the chance to be Eleven before Matt Smith was cast - I could only conclude whomever turned the part down saw what the producers (in thier attempts to ethnically stunt cast) failed to see. (ie: That they weren't right for the part.)
I've grown up with every Doctor since Pertwee - and without a doubt, Matt Smith is *my* Doctor. The definitive article. The embodiment of the role. He was fated to have the part.
Neil Gaiman on the other hand - is a Tw*#.
couldn't agree more. To cast a black actor in the role will always, at least for me, resemble some stunt casting, that of tokenism. Simply because the media and people like gaiman have pushed for it. It's a good headline but I will always be left wondering whether there was somebody better than the black man cast or if indeed the black guy was cast because he was the best or simply black.
Without the hooha, the speculation, the headlines, if a black guy was cast I wouldn't think any different. I would just have thought "Oh it's him! Wasn't he in such and such?" But i will feel it to be a difficult to fully accept a black man without thinking there's a sort of publicity agenda at foot.
This is why a female Doctor would be detrimental for me. Have they cast her just because she's female and she will make good headlines or was she ***really*** the best? Tokenism can prove very negative.
Comments
Oh don't start again Johnny. Your constant "Oh would anyone mind this, and would anyone mind that statements are tiresome. No, I shouldn't think anyone would mind anyway. But while St. Nicholas is greek (Turkish now actually if you want to be pedantic - the land borders changed), Father Christmas is not. Father Christmas is based on St. Nicholas. But only since mid Victorian times. Before that he was a character associated mainly with adults and he seemed to promote the eating an d drinking at Yuletide to celebrate the birth of Christ. He is not St. Nicholas. Santa Claus however is supposedly so.
All your constant "it doesn't matter if it's a woman, or it would be wonderful if it's a black man etc." are tedious. I talk about people in general. I generalise. If it was me, I wouldn't care if the Doctor is any colour, as long as he's male. And I'm not even going to engage in a "why can't it be a woman" debate because I'm bored of those.
That's surely better than what happened in the 1980s when the role went from being offered to well regarded actors to "any old ****er with an Equity card"
I'd read the quote again: "I was rather disappointed that Paterson Joseph didn't get it last time, although I've loved Matts Eleven.) And yes, I have no doubt there will be. (I know one black actor who was already offered the part of the Doctor, and who turned it down.)"
Why do you think it's never going to happen? Because moffat is racist? Because all TV writers are racist?
If you are talking about TV in the 60s and 70s, then yes, writers and producers (and lots of other people) were racist, there is no way of denying that, but at the same time that is true about virtually every TV show in any country at the time. You cannot single out Doctor Who because it didn't show black people.
Since the restart in 2005, I really see no reason to complain.
We've seen 7 main companions, ALL of whom either were black themselves or had non-Caucasian boyfriends, fiances, husbands, children/best friends. Lots of other characters have also featured in single episode roles.
Furthermore, diversity is not only about skin colour.
Within 8 years, we have seen doctors and companions from different parts of Britain, various age groups and social backgrounds. I'd say it matters just as much to show someone with Rose's family background on TV (not just reality TV!) to help kids identify.
And finally, as a sci-fi show, the spread of diversity will always be slightly different from real life, because of the aliens. You need to allow space for the likes of Madame Vastra.
In short, I wouldn't worry that there will never be a black doctor.
Hi Granny
Do you have that feeling in your gut like me that there's a strong possibility it was Idris?
Damn.
I'm happy to stand corrected here, but I think the only actors out of the 12 to audition for the part (although obviously lots of discussions go on with various possibes and 'feelers' are put out) are Sylvester, Paul and Matt.
I've definitely seen Sylester's audition but can't remember what DVD it's on. He's great in it too. (and the producer had already made up his mind.)
Time and the Rani.
Thanks for that! Must've seen it when wandering Youtube because I, um, haven't got around to buying that DVD yet.
He should've just dressed like that. No ??? jumpers! (Really like Sylvester, mind.)
I remember popbitch saying Chiwetel Ejiofor had been offered the role ahead of Matt Smith and turned it down, Paterson Joseph I doubt was ever asked as he would hardly have turned down the biggest role of his career.
Jenna has talked about reading with other actors.
So unless she was fibbing to keep up the smokescreen (this was said before Capaldi was announced) then there were auditions even if Moffat had Capaldi in mind from the start.
She never said the actors were auditioning. She just said that she had been reading with other actors. Perhaps this could be other actors who are already signed up for the show? It isn't just Moffat who said there were no auditions held. There was Ben Stephenson who said it too.
The problem with this incessant carping on about casting a person of colour as the Dr is that when (if...when) it eventually happens, many people and possibly myself included, will feel that this person will have been cast because "we better have a black Dr" as opposed to appointing the best person. I mean...Idris Elba....fine actor, but is he REALLY an obvious choice for the Dr, unless you're immediately looking for a black man to cast...?
Personally ....yes. But the Doctor is one of those parts where there isn't one good choice, so I'm sure Peter Capaldi will be brilliant too.
Yes that was the rumour doing the rounds after Matt Smith was cast. I think Matt's been brilliant and I think Chiwetel Ejiofor would have been as well.
Don't all laugh at once. I'm pretty sure Gaiman worked with him and his production company many moons ago. He used to be a big BBC star and was making those moves into acting, so it's possible the Beeb might have asked him years ago, maybe even before the RTD reboot. And he's a SF/fantasy fan.
I would have loved to have seen Idris as the Doctor. Not because he is black, which is irrelevant to me, but because I think he's one of the best actors around currently, and he would, I'm sure, have turned in a great performance.
And that's the criteria for choosing any actor to play the Doctor.
Happily, Peter fulfils the criteria in spades, so apart from a little personal sadness that it wasn't Idris, I'm happy.
But Granny, you're bound to disappointed. You have a little crush on Idris! And quite right too! My sister said he should have been in a naked sex scene in Luther because not doing one was "a slight against licence payers!"
Dermot Crowley looks like he would have been an excellent choice. He really looked and sounded like a Doctor!
Lenny Henry co-created Neverwhere with Gaiman.
I doubt he was ever offered the role of the Doctor though.
He did play him in a sketch on his own show.
You've no idea how difficult it was for me to compose a post about Idris without mentioning his extreme sexiness.
I didn't want everyone to think that was the only reason I would have wanted him for the Doctor.
The thing that rings out loud & clear in this instance, is that Gaiman seemingly wants a black Doctor for the sake of having a black Doctor. That is little more than flogging an agenda of tokenism - which I find grotesquely offensive - and ironically, massively racist.
Even if someone (white or black) *had* turned down the chance to be Eleven before Matt Smith was cast - I could only conclude whomever turned the part down saw what the producers (in thier attempts to ethnically stunt cast) failed to see. (ie: That they weren't right for the part.)
I've grown up with every Doctor since Pertwee - and without a doubt, Matt Smith is *my* Doctor. The definitive article. The embodiment of the role. He was fated to have the part.
Neil Gaiman on the other hand - is a Tw*#.
couldn't agree more. To cast a black actor in the role will always, at least for me, resemble some stunt casting, that of tokenism. Simply because the media and people like gaiman have pushed for it. It's a good headline but I will always be left wondering whether there was somebody better than the black man cast or if indeed the black guy was cast because he was the best or simply black.
Without the hooha, the speculation, the headlines, if a black guy was cast I wouldn't think any different. I would just have thought "Oh it's him! Wasn't he in such and such?" But i will feel it to be a difficult to fully accept a black man without thinking there's a sort of publicity agenda at foot.
This is why a female Doctor would be detrimental for me. Have they cast her just because she's female and she will make good headlines or was she ***really*** the best? Tokenism can prove very negative.