It's all very muddy, isn't it? Judy was absolutely wrong to 'grade' rape, no excuse for that and, as a seasoned professional, she should really have known better than to approach the argument in the way she did, but while I don't take that link you've posted as gospel either, I do find something a bit disconcerting about the circumstances and a verdict that allowed one man to go free for doing exactly - as far as I can see? - the same thing as the one who went to jail for rape. And I wonder how much of that informed Judy's take on this...?
I completely agree, you simply cannot grade rape, definitely not her finest moment.
My main issue with the whole thing though is, the awful backlash she's receiving, I honestly don't believe she meant it to come out the way it did & she apologised immediately which is more than can be said for Philip Schofield & his almighty gaff about sexual abuse to the PM.
As I said in another post, I didn't see it but the last time I saw JF on TV she was very nervous & shaky, did she appear the same?
Yeah Bela, the link I posted is very one sided but for me, there is a lot of truth in it.
All she needed to say was he's served his time, and why shouldn't he get his job back if he's still good enough to play. How anyone can be so ignorant as to get into the no go area of grading rape and also stating she was very drunk, is beyond me. How dare she!
Judy's been given a severe knuckle rapping over this, across the media. I think she did word her point badly and don't agree with her presumptions but can appreciate where she was coming from without frothing at the mouth. I'm not suggesting anyone on here is, at all, but some of the Twitter remarks just show how blind people can be to the irony in their statements. It's almost like a subset of individuals target incidents such as this in order to release all their pent up bile and frustration with life. They end up behaving much more appallingly than the remarks/behaviour they are criticizing. I guess that seeing as we don't have public executions any more it's the next best way to get their rocks off. This is just one of many recent examples that have made the news but it just seems to be getting increasingly ludicrous and is hard to ignore or avoid.
From what I can gather, Evans booked and paid for a hotel room in his friends name so he would have somewhere to have sex if he picked up a girl, and when he got this girl back to the room the friend not only called Evans but two other friends who were watching and filming from outside the window. What a classy bunch for Judy to be taking all this abuse over.
I think she expressed herself very badly indeed, her point was about rehabilitation of offenders and as has been said Jane agreed with her so why all the focus on Judy (and what she looks like)?
From what I can gather, Evans booked and paid for a hotel room in his friends name so he would have somewhere to have sex if he picked up a girl, and when he got this girl back to the room the friend not only called Evans but two other friends who were watching and filming from outside the window. What a classy bunch for Judy to be taking all this abuse over.
I think she expressed herself very badly indeed, her point was about rehabilitation of offenders and as has been said Jane agreed with her so why all the focus on Judy (and what she looks like)?
Well said. She was making a point, and made it using the wrong words, but the underlying message was clear.
Some of the comments about Judy's looks are harsh and unnecessary. She's a woman in her 60's, why should she look any different?
From what I can gather, Evans booked and paid for a hotel room in his friends name so he would have somewhere to have sex if he picked up a girl, and when he got this girl back to the room the friend not only called Evans but two other friends who were watching and filming from outside the window. What a classy bunch for Judy to be taking all this abuse over.
I think she expressed herself very badly indeed, her point was about rehabilitation of offenders and as has been said Jane agreed with her so why all the focus on Judy (and what she looks like)?
Completely untrue - he booked the hotel for McDonald so that his friend would have somewhere to stay as he felt there wasn't enough room at his house. The girl picked up McDonald in the street as he was returning to the hotel room alone. The rest as far as I am aware is true - I agree it is pretty sordid - but that is hardly the point - the point is rather whether or not it amounts to rape, and if it was why one guy was found guilty, the other innocent. The girl did not accuse either man of rape. The police told her that she had been raped after she said she couldn't remember anything (the two footballers were quite open about both having sex with her - that is the court case came about..
The really shocking thing for me is the number of people who have rushed to sign a petition and abuse Judy on Facebook etc when they obviously have no idea of the facts of the case.
I agree with her too. If a girl goes out and gets so drunk to the extent that she doesn't know what she is doing and is happy to go to a hotel with a stranger then I am sorry but don't go crying rape.
Just to clarify your point - the girl didn't go crying rape - she actually went to the police because she had lost her handbag (she left it in the kebab shop) and they put together the facts of the case - after talking to men involved - and decided that she must have been raped because she didn't remember anything that happened.
I've read somewhere that they were all out together trying to pick up girls and that Evans told the police that the two men had had threesomes before. It could be that the prosecution suggested that he booked the room for sex so it would be hidden from his girlfriend.
I clicked that link to the campaign website, it was very aggressive in criticising the victim. Why would this be if she wasn't even the one who made the complaint?
The receptionist at the hotel could tell there was something dodgy about this situation at the time,and Evans sneaking out of the fire escape gives a fair indication that he knew he had something to hide.
Unbelievably crass comment from Judy IMVHO. Of course that doesn't excuse people dissing her appearance or making threats to her daughter - equally as bad.
Rape is rape which ever way you look at it. End of.
Completely untrue - he booked the hotel for McDonald so that his friend would have somewhere to stay as he felt there wasn't enough room at his house. The girl picked up McDonald in the street as he was returning to the hotel room alone. The rest as far as I am aware is true - I agree it is pretty sordid - but that is hardly the point - the point is rather whether or not it amounts to rape, and if it was why one guy was found guilty, the other innocent. The girl did not accuse either man of rape. The police told her that she had been raped after she said she couldn't remember anything (the two footballers were quite open about both having sex with her - that is the court case came about..
The really shocking thing for me is the number of people who have rushed to sign a petition and abuse Judy on Facebook etc when they obviously have no idea of the facts of the case.
I've re-read the report and it says that McDonald left the hotel before Evans, telling the receptionist to look out for the girl as she was unwell. It seems he was at the hotel for around an hour so he must have had somewhere else to sleep after all.
Well it does in my book. I am entitled to say what I like to whoever I like without having the PC brigade on my back.
People seem to forget that political correctness exists for a reason and that is to try and stop bigots of various stripes from spreading their ill-informed opinion. Mine is that Judy isn't a bigot but her opinion is ill-informed. Rape can contain a lot of grey areas - my understand that it often happens when either both or one of the protagonist or the victim is in their cups so to speak and I guess that makes sense as your judgement is impaired. However no matter how hammered a victim is and what they argeed to do before the rape and how many times they consented to sex in the past either with the perpertrator or with other people - if someone has sex with you when you either don't or unable to give your consent to the act (I'm talking about being passed out rather than the age issue which is a huge grey area that I have views that many would disagree with) then it is rape and it is a disgusting appalling act that will traumatise the victim for life which is why it is supposed to carry a life sentence - there are not 'nicer' ways for it to happen - it's all bad and people who state otherwise are contributing to a toxic culture however well intentioned they are.
I've re-read the report and it says that McDonald left the hotel before Evans, telling the receptionist to look out for the girl as she was unwell. It seems he was at the hotel for around an hour so he must have had somewhere else to sleep after all.
I'm guessing he originally meant to stay at the hotel but decided to leave as the girl was being sick and he didn't want to have to wake up with her the next morning in case she thought that represented some sort of commitment. Pretty shabby behaviour I agree, but lots of lads do similar things and don't end up in court.
If the hotel room was just booked for the purposes of sex (which would hardly be a crime let's face it in this day and age) , it seems strange that McDonald was going back alone, and only brought the girl along after he bumped into her and she asked if she could come back with him. He's a good looking bloke with a bit of cash to splash and a moderate amount of fame, if he wanted a girl he wouldn't have to get one drunk and lure her back, plenty of available and willing girls out there.
It strikes me that if McDonald had stayed with the girl and maybe bought her a meal the next day, helped her look for her missing bag, none of this would have happened. They certainly brought a lot of this on themselves by treating her like a piece of meat - but I don't think that necessarily means they are guilty of rape. Making that sort of moral judgement is just like saying a girl asked for it by wearing a short skirt and drinking too much.
Why? Does it suddenly not count as rape if she was drunk? Should the man get away with having non-consensual sex just because the woman he raped went back to his hotel room?
It's a shame that instead of teaching people not to have sex with someone who is too drunk to consent, we're teaching people not to get drunk.
We should be doing both actually it doesn't hurt - it's like advising people not to leave bags on the back of chairs in resturants and make sure you pay attention when you're using the cash point - some people are a-holes and you need to look after yourself it doesn't excuse them but you can't do a thing to stop them except to look after yourself and your mates. To use the last analogy - I got robbed at a cashpoint because I was a numpty but the bank didn't punish me for it - the recognised that a victim is a victim and to be honest their lack of cctv cameras outside the bank was as much to blame as my stupidity such things act as a detertant. The point is that yes education is needed but if banks don't blame victims why should society as a whole.
I couldn't agree with Judy's comments because of the level of presumption - "it wasn't violent" and "there was no bodily harm". Unless she was in the room at the time I am not sure how she has drawn these conclusions so readily.
Once it is suggested that "sometimes it's OK, because of this reason, or that reason...." it sends out very mixed messages, particularly to younger people who are most likely to end up in these situations.
I certainly do not condone the subsequent, predictably abusive reaction towards Judy's family on Twitter and other social media, however. That does not help at all.
The phrase two wrongs don't make a right comes to mind doesn't it - Chloe Maddeley's done nothing wrong why should she have to put up with this rubbish.
My point is very simple. Judy viewpoint is not so out of touch with mainstream opinion on this subject as you might believe. Liberals like yourself can have your view on this subject and it is totally valid but until such time as mainstream opinion shifts then the conviction rate for 'date rape' is not going to rise significantly. Juries are made up of 12 everyday folk from all walks of life, different life experiences and opinions. They come together to reach a decision on guilt or not of rape. The guilty verdicts are not coming through so there must still be a majority (in this instance 10 out of 12) who do not see these cases as rape. Or are not sufficiently convinced beyond reasonable doubt that it is. You are dealing with a he said/she said situation which is always going to be difficult.
I agree with the last statement but the point is that the media and those who work in it have a duty to raise the bar in what people think and try to challenge and enlighten people rather than pandering to the preduices they already have - by such is society changed and improved.
People seem to forget that political correctness exists for a reason and that is to try and stop bigots of various stripes from spreading their ill-informed opinion. Mine is that Judy isn't a bigot but her opinion is ill-informed. Rape can contain a lot of grey areas - my understand that it often happens when either both or one of the protagonist or the victim is in their cups so to speak and I guess that makes sense as your judgement is impaired. However no matter how hammered a victim is and what they argeed to do before the rape and how many times they consented to sex in the past either with the perpertrator or with other people - if someone has sex with you when you either don't or unable to give your consent to the act (I'm talking about being passed out rather than the age issue which is a huge grey area that I have views that many would disagree with) then it is rape and it is a disgusting appalling act that will traumatise the victim for life which is why it is supposed to carry a life sentence - there are not 'nicer' ways for it to happen - it's all bad and people who state otherwise are contributing to a toxic culture however well intentioned they are.
100% this. Or we'd have a regressive society that still refers to certain groups of people as 'pakis' 'ni**ers', 'queers' etc.
Talking about the 'PC Brigade' just shows the bigoted and awful views that so many people still have in today's society. People have the right not to be victimized and shamed because of who they are, the colour of their skin and their sexuality. The same goes for rape victims - stop blaming them and blame the rapists who actually rape them.
The phrase two wrongs don't make a right comes to mind doesn't it - Chloe Maddeley's done nothing wrong why should she have to put up with this rubbish.
The stupidity of these people making 'threats' is that what they are saying about Chloe is far worse than Judy's comments on the subject.
They just lost the argument the moment they started directing abuse at her daughter.
She is still entitled to say what she wants whether it's right or wrong and it is up to her to justify them but she can still say them.
And people can disagree with her if they want, especially on something as explosive as saying that that particular rape wasn't violent or anything. Ask any rape victim how they feel about her comments.
Far from being cynical I think this will shake Judy to the core and may be the last we see of her. She clearly had no concept how distressing her comments were, but the bigger shock for her must have been the speed it went across social media. Things have moved on apace even in the 5 or so years since she was on TV.
Indeed. The likes of the infernal Twitter allows the shrill cries of collective outrage to spread rapidly through the great unwashed.
I do understand what she was trying to say she just could have worded it a lot better.
Judy especially, must know the safe way to word a particularly sensitive or difficult topic such as this would be..... "what do you say to those who might say he's done his time?"
Comments
I completely agree, you simply cannot grade rape, definitely not her finest moment.
My main issue with the whole thing though is, the awful backlash she's receiving, I honestly don't believe she meant it to come out the way it did & she apologised immediately which is more than can be said for Philip Schofield & his almighty gaff about sexual abuse to the PM.
As I said in another post, I didn't see it but the last time I saw JF on TV she was very nervous & shaky, did she appear the same?
Yeah Bela, the link I posted is very one sided but for me, there is a lot of truth in it.
It's only a Free country if you agree with everyone and say the right things other than that we have less Freedom than China.
I think she expressed herself very badly indeed, her point was about rehabilitation of offenders and as has been said Jane agreed with her so why all the focus on Judy (and what she looks like)?
Some of the comments about Judy's looks are harsh and unnecessary. She's a woman in her 60's, why should she look any different?
The really shocking thing for me is the number of people who have rushed to sign a petition and abuse Judy on Facebook etc when they obviously have no idea of the facts of the case.
Just to clarify your point - the girl didn't go crying rape - she actually went to the police because she had lost her handbag (she left it in the kebab shop) and they put together the facts of the case - after talking to men involved - and decided that she must have been raped because she didn't remember anything that happened.
I clicked that link to the campaign website, it was very aggressive in criticising the victim. Why would this be if she wasn't even the one who made the complaint?
The receptionist at the hotel could tell there was something dodgy about this situation at the time,and Evans sneaking out of the fire escape gives a fair indication that he knew he had something to hide.
Rape is rape which ever way you look at it. End of.
I've re-read the report and it says that McDonald left the hotel before Evans, telling the receptionist to look out for the girl as she was unwell. It seems he was at the hotel for around an hour so he must have had somewhere else to sleep after all.
People seem to forget that political correctness exists for a reason and that is to try and stop bigots of various stripes from spreading their ill-informed opinion. Mine is that Judy isn't a bigot but her opinion is ill-informed. Rape can contain a lot of grey areas - my understand that it often happens when either both or one of the protagonist or the victim is in their cups so to speak and I guess that makes sense as your judgement is impaired. However no matter how hammered a victim is and what they argeed to do before the rape and how many times they consented to sex in the past either with the perpertrator or with other people - if someone has sex with you when you either don't or unable to give your consent to the act (I'm talking about being passed out rather than the age issue which is a huge grey area that I have views that many would disagree with) then it is rape and it is a disgusting appalling act that will traumatise the victim for life which is why it is supposed to carry a life sentence - there are not 'nicer' ways for it to happen - it's all bad and people who state otherwise are contributing to a toxic culture however well intentioned they are.
I'm guessing he originally meant to stay at the hotel but decided to leave as the girl was being sick and he didn't want to have to wake up with her the next morning in case she thought that represented some sort of commitment. Pretty shabby behaviour I agree, but lots of lads do similar things and don't end up in court.
If the hotel room was just booked for the purposes of sex (which would hardly be a crime let's face it in this day and age) , it seems strange that McDonald was going back alone, and only brought the girl along after he bumped into her and she asked if she could come back with him. He's a good looking bloke with a bit of cash to splash and a moderate amount of fame, if he wanted a girl he wouldn't have to get one drunk and lure her back, plenty of available and willing girls out there.
It strikes me that if McDonald had stayed with the girl and maybe bought her a meal the next day, helped her look for her missing bag, none of this would have happened. They certainly brought a lot of this on themselves by treating her like a piece of meat - but I don't think that necessarily means they are guilty of rape. Making that sort of moral judgement is just like saying a girl asked for it by wearing a short skirt and drinking too much.
We should be doing both actually it doesn't hurt - it's like advising people not to leave bags on the back of chairs in resturants and make sure you pay attention when you're using the cash point - some people are a-holes and you need to look after yourself it doesn't excuse them but you can't do a thing to stop them except to look after yourself and your mates. To use the last analogy - I got robbed at a cashpoint because I was a numpty but the bank didn't punish me for it - the recognised that a victim is a victim and to be honest their lack of cctv cameras outside the bank was as much to blame as my stupidity such things act as a detertant. The point is that yes education is needed but if banks don't blame victims why should society as a whole.
The phrase two wrongs don't make a right comes to mind doesn't it - Chloe Maddeley's done nothing wrong why should she have to put up with this rubbish.
I agree with the last statement but the point is that the media and those who work in it have a duty to raise the bar in what people think and try to challenge and enlighten people rather than pandering to the preduices they already have - by such is society changed and improved.
100% this. Or we'd have a regressive society that still refers to certain groups of people as 'pakis' 'ni**ers', 'queers' etc.
Talking about the 'PC Brigade' just shows the bigoted and awful views that so many people still have in today's society. People have the right not to be victimized and shamed because of who they are, the colour of their skin and their sexuality. The same goes for rape victims - stop blaming them and blame the rapists who actually rape them.
The stupidity of these people making 'threats' is that what they are saying about Chloe is far worse than Judy's comments on the subject.
They just lost the argument the moment they started directing abuse at her daughter.
And people can disagree with her if they want, especially on something as explosive as saying that that particular rape wasn't violent or anything. Ask any rape victim how they feel about her comments.
Indeed. The likes of the infernal Twitter allows the shrill cries of collective outrage to spread rapidly through the great unwashed.
Judy especially, must know the safe way to word a particularly sensitive or difficult topic such as this would be..... "what do you say to those who might say he's done his time?"
Im not sure, but to me she doesn't look very well.