'British' teenagers apparently see Islamic State scum as "pop idols"

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  • Virgil TracyVirgil Tracy Posts: 26,806
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    bollywood wrote: »
    Why did he have to walk around in a tunic when he was little? Children get despised for small things that make them or their families different.

    I gave you the link, in fact two links, that the anger comes first and the religion is the justification. We know that Emwadi was an angry and anti social kid before latching on to radicalism.

    Really you should stop being an apologist for those ignorant people.
  • jediknight2k1jediknight2k1 Posts: 6,892
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    bollywood wrote: »
    Ha, predictable next question. It's not extreme by definition to want sharia law in a place where a conservative form of Islam already exists. To impose it on another society is extreme. That's not to say whether you or I agree with sharia, or like it, but whether it is extreme for that culture. And again, how ISIS is different from sharia.

    Executing women for adultery to non-Muslims is extreme regardless of culture.

    That is the fundamental problem with Islam, death for apostasy, stoning of women and chopping hands off for theft has been the norm for a thousand of years.

    The only difference between Shraria and ISIS are that one is belief and the is physical entity.

    I would find strange if a moderate Muslim doesn't find stoning of women extreme.

    If there is a problem with Islamic fundamentalists then the problem is the fundamentals of the Islam.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    Executing women for adultery to non-Muslims is extreme regardless of culture.

    That is the fundamental problem with Islam, death for apostasy, stoning of women and chopping hands off for theft has been the norm for a thousand of years.

    The only difference between Shraria and ISIS are that one is belief and the is physical entity.

    I would find strange if a moderate Muslim doesn't find stoning of women extreme.

    If there is a problem with Islamic fundamentalists then the problem is the fundamentals of the Islam.

    You are talking about your values, that unfortunately as much as you might want to, you cannot always impose on another culture.

    I can say that the death penalty is extreme, also, but again it doesn't mean that people in Wyoming are all extremists or they are just like ISIS.

    The difference you cite is a huge difference. There are people in the U.S. who want the country to be entirely Christian, or entirely X. They can want that but as long as they aren't acting on it, they aren't extremists.
  • hopeless casehopeless case Posts: 5,245
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    bollywood wrote: »
    Why did he have to walk around in a tunic when he was little? Children get despised for small things that make them or their families different.

    I gave you the link, in fact two links, that the anger comes first and the religion is the justification.
    Yes but your links don't mean that it is so. You get that I'm sure. Opinion articles are not "truth".

    I'm not saying that some jihadists aren't angry first and then get all religious, but to try and generalise is a tad naive.

    Anyway, isn't the point that he feels despised because he is a Muslim? Isn't that where the anger is supposed to come from?
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    Yes but your links don't mean that it is so. You get that I'm sure. Opinion articles are not "truth".

    I'm not saying that some jihadists aren't angry first and then get all religious, but to try and generalise is a tad naive.

    Anyway, isn't the point that he feels despised because he is a Muslim? Isn't that where the anger is supposed to come from?

    Lacking a controlled study of jidhsdists, one does the best one can. Maybe someone could round some up.

    He shouldn't have to feel despised by being Muslim, or Jew or Christian or gay or ethnic looking.
  • exlordlucanexlordlucan Posts: 35,375
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    bollywood wrote: »
    Really you should stop being an apologist for those ignorant people.

    I'm always weary of people in the islamic dress so you won't see me apologising for them.

    Your problem is that where you live you aren't on the receiving end of muslim extremists as much as here in Europe so you don't know what it's like.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    I'm always weary of people in the islamic dress so you won't see me apologising for them.

    Your problem is that where you live you aren't on the receiving end of muslim extremists as much as here in Europe so you don't know what it's like.

    9/11 wasn't extreme then?
  • jediknight2k1jediknight2k1 Posts: 6,892
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    bollywood wrote: »
    You are talking about your values, that unfortunately as much as you might want to, you cannot always impose on another culture.

    Not just my values, but the those of everyone who opposes Sharia Law.
    I can say that the death penalty is extreme, also, but again it doesn't mean that Wyoming are all extremists or like ISIS.

    Wyoming is an irrelevant straw man. The people don't make the law, the government does.
    The difference you cite is a huge difference. There are people in the U.S. who want the country to be entirely Christian, or entirely X. They can want that but as long as they aren't acting on it, they aren't extremists.

    A Muslim who wants Sharia Law and acts on it is an extremest or what the left now call an 'Islamist'.

    The same Muslim could want Sharia but not act on it and isn't an 'Islamist'. The only different between a moderate who who supports Sharia and Islamist is one might wave an ISIL flag.

    Anyone who wants the UK to be under Sharia Law to suit their religious needs is an extremist.
  • hopeless casehopeless case Posts: 5,245
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    bollywood wrote: »
    Lacking a controlled study of jidhsdists, one does the best one can. Maybe someone could round some up.

    He shouldn't have to feel despised by being Muslim, or Jew or Christian or gay or ethnic looking.
    Yes but if he is little, and not walking around in a long white tunic and carrying a Koran for some attention, he's not going to get that "despised feeling" is he?

    As many of out jihadists are good students living within a Muslim community, I wonder where they can have developed that "feeling"?

    My guess would be from the parents, the mosques, the communities telling them that Muslims are oppressed and despised. What's your view?
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    Not just my values, but the those of everyone who opposes Sharia Law.



    Wyoming is an irrelevant straw man. The people don't make the law, the government does.



    A Muslim who wants Sharia Law and acts on it is an extremest or what the left now call an 'Islamist'.

    The same Muslim could want Sharia but not act on it and isn't an 'Islamist' because the don't act on it.

    Anyone who wants the UK to be under Sharia Law to suit their religious needs is an extremist.

    The government makes the law? Who makes the government but officials elected to do the will of the people?

    Okay you add others who oppose sharia law. I oppose it myself but I can't change every country whose norms and values I disagree with. I don't agree with values in North Korea, China, India or a host of other places. That still doesn't mean that ISIS and sharia are the same. Sharia is only one facet of ISIS.

    Here the spokesperson for progressive Islam says that sharia law is man made and not in the Koran:

    "AZ: Yes. MPV has established its positions based on sacred text and traditions. Scholars do not attack us. Young punks who do not know Islam are the ones that do. When we say women are allowed to lead co-ed congregations in prayer, scholars know that the first Imamah was appointed by the Prophet Muhammad and she did so. But we are not taught that. When people claim Sharia law states we should punish people for homosexuality, we push back by asking, “where does it say that in the Quran?” Where is Sharia law coming from? It is man-made."
  • exlordlucanexlordlucan Posts: 35,375
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    bollywood wrote: »
    9/11 wasn't extreme then?

    9/11 was taken into account which is why I said 'as much', it didn't mean you haven't been on the receiving end at all.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    9/11 was taken into account which is why I said 'as much'.

    I'm sure we do have extremists and terror cells. Yet we also have imams who are teaching that only God can decide what to do with nonbelievers.
  • exlordlucanexlordlucan Posts: 35,375
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    bollywood wrote: »
    I'm sure we do have extremists and terror cells. Yet we also have imams who are teaching that only God can decide what to do with nonbelievers.

    Send them over to replace the arseholes here, I fear they may be too late though.
  • jediknight2k1jediknight2k1 Posts: 6,892
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    bollywood wrote: »
    I'm sure we do have extremists and terror cells. Yet we also have imams who are teaching that only God can decide what to do with nonbelievers.

    How does Allah decide what to do about the unbelievers?

    Does he burn them fire ? Does he strike them down with a lightning bolt ?

    Does Allah decide that they are sentenced to death by men.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    How does Allah decide what to do about the unbelieving ?

    Does he burn them fire ? Does he strike them down with a lightning bolt ?

    Does Allah decide that they are sentenced to death by men.

    That is a spiritual question for the imam.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    Yes but if he is little, and not walking around in a long white tunic and carrying a Koran for some attention, he's not going to get that "despised feeling" is he?

    As many of out jihadists are good students living within a Muslim community, I wonder where they can have developed that "feeling"?

    My guess would be from the parents, the mosques, the communities telling them that Muslims are oppressed and despised. What's your view?

    My view is that you don't know the back story of 'good students.' There are serial killers who were 'good students.'

    Some might have parents with a grudge against society, or problems that don't have to do with religion, drinking, drugs, who knows what secrets behind closed doors.
  • jediknight2k1jediknight2k1 Posts: 6,892
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    bollywood wrote: »
    That is a spiritual question for the imam.

    Mohammad, Allah's Apostle, Messanger of Allah, said that those who leave their religion are to be killed.

    What do you presume the literal interpenetration is ?
  • Virgil TracyVirgil Tracy Posts: 26,806
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    Yes but if he is little, and not walking around in a long white tunic and carrying a Koran for some attention, he's not going to get that "despised feeling" is he?

    As many of out jihadists are good students living within a Muslim community, I wonder where they can have developed that "feeling"?

    My guess would be from the parents, the mosques, the communities telling them that Muslims are oppressed and despised. What's your view?

    that would require muslims taking responsibility and criticising islam , apologists won't allow that , everything else must be blamed .

    .
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    Mohammad, Allah's Apostle, Messanger of Allah, said that those who leave their religion are to be killed.

    What do you presume the literal interpenetration is ?

    Did you see my post that the Koran cannot be read literally? That is apparently a myth, as it's impossible to read the entire Koran literally. You would have to determine the context and whether there were counter instructions or hadith to that text, that I believe there are. There are thousands of hadith. That is why if you continue to pick out snippets you will never acknowledge that there is more than one way to interpret the Koran. Why would you promote literalism? Even for those who read the Koran only, there are verses that counter violent ones.

    One source says this:

    The Qur’an is completely silent on any worldly punishment for apostasy and the sole Tradition that forms the basis of rulings is open to many interpretations.
  • Guts and GloryGuts and Glory Posts: 1,739
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    Mohammad, Allah's Apostle, Messanger of Allah, said that those who leave their religion are to be killed.

    What do you presume the literal interpenetration is ?

    Only Islamic "scholars" are able to decipher that riddle.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    that would require muslims taking responsibility and criticising islam , apologists won't allow that , everything else must be blamed .

    .

    Yet what you say isn't true because there are reformers in the US who say they are not being attacked. They aren't criticizing Islam though, they are interpreting it and separating out what is manmade.
  • jediknight2k1jediknight2k1 Posts: 6,892
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    bollywood wrote: »
    Did you see my post that the Koran cannot be read literally? That is apparently a myth, as it's impossible to read the entire Koran literally. You would have to determine the context and whether there were counter instructions or hadith to that text, that I believe there are. There are thousands of hadith. That is why if you continue to pick out snippets you will never acknowledge that there is more than one way to interpret the Koran. Why would you promote literalism? Even for those who read the Koran only, there are verses that counter violent ones.

    You are free to write to the religious authorities in Saudi Arabia who still execute people for apostasy.

    The Koran can be read figuratively. What a shocker. Which country do you think then needs to adopt laws made on common sense.
    One source says this;

    The Qur’an is completely silent on any worldly punishment for apostasy and the sole Tradition that forms the basis of rulings is open to many interpretations.
    3 – What is the ruling on the apostate?

    If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.

    The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).

    Do you think had Islamic scholars have a problem with putting Mohammad and his words in historical context ?

    Who is wrong, those who oppose the draconian laws or those who enact them.
  • bollywoodbollywood Posts: 67,769
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    You are free to write to the religious authorities in Saudi Arabia who still execute people for apostasy.

    The Koran can be read figuratively. What a shocker. Which country do you think then needs to adopt laws made on common sense.


    3 – What is the ruling on the apostate?

    If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.

    The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).

    Do you think had Islamic scholars have a problem with putting Mohammad and his words in historical context ?

    Who is wrong, those who oppose the draconian laws or those who enact them.

    It's not about historical context. It's about context and also any hadith that counter that text. I quoted a source above that says that the Quran is silent on the punishment for apostasy and the tradition on which the law is based, is open to many interpretations.

    One interpretation, based on a hadith, is apparently no punishment if the person does not use their new position to work against the state.
  • jediknight2k1jediknight2k1 Posts: 6,892
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    bollywood wrote: »
    It's not about historical context. It's about context and also any hadith that counter that text. I quoted a source above that says that the Quran is silent on the punishment for apostasy and the tradition on which the law is based, is open to many interpretations.

    One interpretation, based on a hadith, is apparently no punishment if the person does not use their new position to work against the state.

    It's about historical context and always has been.

    Over a 1,000 years he said “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”. The fact that people are still executed for apostasy is solely down to those exact words.

    Sharia Law is not just based on Qu'ran and it's ignorant to think that it is.
  • hopeless casehopeless case Posts: 5,245
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    bollywood wrote: »
    My view is that you don't know the back story of 'good students.' There are serial killers who were 'good students.'

    Some might have parents with a grudge against society, or problems that don't have to do with religion, drinking, drugs, who knows what secrets behind closed doors.
    Quite. All we know about the back story of the good students who have run away to join ISIS are from, in the main, the families. Who all say they were good normal kids with no worries and they had absolutely no idea how they became radicalised and it wasn't anything to do with their religion.

    If this is true, the lifetime of feeling despised seems a tenuous connection. Unless we disbelieve the families that is. What's your view?
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