So when will you accept that Duggan was criminal carrying an illegal firearm who caused a firearms officer to believe peoples lives were in danger and needed to make a split second decision?
Or are you still in the ridiculed stage?
V53 caused himself to believe lives were in danger. W70 had exactly the same view as him and all he saw was a flight risk.
So when will you accept that Duggan was criminal carrying an illegal firearm who caused a firearms officer to believe peoples lives were in danger and needed to make a split second decision?
Or are you still in the ridiculed stage?
I'm at the stage where the above looks like simplistic bollocks :kitty:
V53 says he even had time to re-assess the situation between shots 1 and 2, and still determined that Duggan was holding a gun - even describing it in detail, a description which matched the found article. Yet the inquest jury decided there was no gun in Duggan's hand.
V53 caused himself to believe lives were in danger. W70 had exactly the same view as him and all he saw was a flight risk.
You have clearly never been in any sort of ongoing incident to make a statement like that. No one sees and hears everything that happens exactly the same, and perceptions can vary.
That is why some Officers statements were not the same as others, and negates this ongoing nonsense that they all copy their statements from a flip chart. If they did, they'd say the same wouldn't they?
I'll leave you with this thought before I turn in tonight, Ras Fas. I think it's worth remembering.
The German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, 200 years
ago, said all truth goes through three stages:-
First it is ridiculed
Then it is violently opposed
Finally it is widely accepted as self evident
That makes sense if we are talking about the truth. If the thing being spoken of is nonsense in the first place, or lets give the benefit of the doubt, misunderstood, then that passage is irrelevant.
You have clearly never been in any sort of ongoing incident to make a statement like that. No one sees and hears everything that happens exactly the same, and perceptions can vary.
That is why some Officers statements were not the same as others, and negates this ongoing nonsense that they all copy their statements from a flip chart. If they did, they'd say the same wouldn't they?
Remarkable that no gun was in Duggan's hand at the time he was shot, but V53 was still able to describe the found item in detail before he'd even seen it. Yes, I'm sorry, we're back to inconvenient facts again.
That makes sense if we are talking about the truth. If the thing being spoken of is nonsense in the first place, or lets give the benefit of the doubt, misunderstood, then that passage is irrelevant.
The above is what people who were still at stages 1 & 2 would say.
I'm at the stage where the above looks like simplistic bollocks :kitty:
V53 says he even had time to re-assess the situation between shots 1 and 2, and still determined that Duggan was holding a gun - even describing it in detail, a description which matched the found article. Yet the inquest jury decided there was no gun in Duggan's hand.
Remarkable that no gun was in Duggan's hand at the time he was shot, but V53 was still able to describe the found item in detail before he'd even seen it. Yes, I'm sorry, we're back to inconvenient facts again.
Detail? He described the basic format of a handgun, which covers pretty much all of them.
Duggan had the gun, unless we are back to that conspiracy theory that it was planted.
And, the Police statements differ here, so how does that figure with this theory they all copied their statements from a flip chart?
You have clearly never been in any sort of ongoing incident to make a statement like that. No one sees and hears everything that happens exactly the same, and perceptions can vary.
Exactly! W70 saw a flight risk. V53 saw a threat to life. That's all I'm saying...
That is why some Officers statements were not the same as others, and negates this ongoing nonsense that they all copy their statements from a flip chart. If they did, they'd say the same wouldn't they?
They could hardly all say they saw the gun knowing full well it wasn't there. Credulity was stretched enough when W70 piped up with his 'gun shaped object'.
They all say the taxi was gold. They all say they would have seen the gun if Duggan had thrown it from the taxi. They all say Duggan reached towards his waistband...
Are you denying they all sat in front of a flip chart to write their statements?
Exactly! W70 saw a flight risk. V53 saw a threat to life. That's all I'm saying...
They could hardly all say they saw the gun knowing full well it wasn't there. Credulity was stretched enough when W70 piped up with his 'gun shaped object'.
They all say the taxi was gold. They all say they would have seen the gun if Duggan had thrown it from the taxi. They all say Duggan reached towards his waistband...
Are you denying they all sat in front of a flip chart to write their statements?
It has been explained how this works. They need detail, such as locations etc, because these things don't always happen where everyone involved knows where they are.
Basic scene setting is an aspect, and that is not sinister.
When it comes down to specific areas of evidence, then people can only record what they saw, heard, and did.
In the middle of something as stressful as that, incidental things, such as car colours can be missed. Then if the wrong colour is mentioned, it is jumped on with great delight to prove they are lying.
The fact remains, if they were all copying their statements from a flip chart, as you claim to be common practice, the statements would all be the same.
You continue to say this, despite those of us with actual experience of these things, never having encountered such a system.
Whenever I've been on operations, my statement would relate to what I could say, but talking through it with others would often help me recall bits I'd forgotten, and that's what this is about.
When? Nobody saw it until it turned up on the grass... as predicted by V59!
Yes, we know the conspiracy theory. You've been bleating on for pages about why HF wasn't arrested when he handed over the gun, now you're going back to he didn't have the gun. Which is it?
Yes, we know the conspiracy theory. You've been bleating on for pages about why HF wasn't arrested when he handed over the gun, now you're going back to he didn't have the gun. Which is it?
Don't be facetious. You know full well I think the gun was left in the taxi.
It has been explained how this works. They need detail, such as locations etc, because these things don't always happen where everyone involved knows where they are.
Basic scene setting is an aspect, and that is not sinister.
When it comes down to specific areas of evidence, then people can only record what they saw, heard, and did.
In the middle of something as stressful as that, incidental things, such as car colours can be missed. Then if the wrong colour is mentioned, it is jumped on with great delight to prove they are lying.
The fact remains, if they were all copying their statements from a flip chart, as you claim to be common practice, the statements would all be the same.
You continue to say this, despite those of us with actual experience of these things, never having encountered such a system.
Whenever I've been on operations, my statement would relate to what I could say, but talking through it with others would often help me recall bits I'd forgotten, and that's what this is about.
I know the reasons for doing it. I'm pointing out it is done.
You're trying to suggest it isn't done by pointing to the absurdity of everyone copying everything down word for word. You don't actually think I meant that do you?
Don't be facetious. You know full well I think the gun was left in the taxi.
I said Duggan had the gun, and you said "when, nobody saw it".
Therefore, he had a loaded gun when stopped by Police, which is a dangerous position to be in, especially when you jump out of the taxi for whatever reason.
You may think the gun was left in the taxi, but there is absolutely no evidence of that, apart from a conspiracy theory.
Duggan got out of the vehicle, and threw the gun, to get rid of evidence.
I know the reasons for doing it. I'm pointing out it is done.
You're trying to suggest it isn't done by pointing to the absurdity of everyone copying everything down word for word. You don't actually think I meant that do you?
Well say what you mean then.
You said it is common practice to copy statements from a flip chart. It isn't, and the example you give isn't a statement on a flip chart at all. it is key points, for reference.
A statement is a very different thing to what you showed.
They either copy statements from a flip chart, or they don't. The fact the statements differ show they didn't here, and those with experience of it state it is not common practice at all, which is what you claimed.
Don't be facetious. You know full well I think the gun was left in the taxi.
We have gone through this several times.
For what you are saying to be true all officers would have had to have been in on it. They would have had to do all of this in public view, taken the gun from the taxi and to nearby location. They would have had to do this AND then explain how it had got there.
It would have been much easier for them to plant the gun, near to the body, under the car, or pretty much anywhere than where you suggested.
They wouldn't have been able to discuss it over radio as that's all recorded, so unless they have invented telepathy it would have been difficult for them all to do it.
Ultimately however the very fact that the gun did not need to be in his hand at the time of the shot to justify the shooting means the very argument falls flat.
You said it is common practice to copy statements from a flip chart. It isn't, and the example you give isn't a statement on a flip chart at all. it is key points, for reference.
A statement is a very different thing to what you showed.
They either copy statements from a flip chart, or they don't. The fact the statements differ show they didn't here, and those with experience of it state it is not common practice at all, which is what you claimed.
Up until today I wasn't sure that Rasfas was into conspiracy theories. Until 2 comments used recently.
The first being the statement that officers copying statement from a flip chart is common practise. Several people immediately jumped on that as untrue and have given credible responses to disprove every element of the argument. Only for finally Rasfas to make the statement that he didn't mean it how it initially come across. When you consider several accusations about the flip chart and what was actually written on it have been thrown in as well...
Then was the comment that those of us that disagree attack the posters in order to discredit them in front of the casual readers of this thread, which is possibly the most absurd thing I have ever read on this site.
I said Duggan had the gun, and you said "when, nobody saw it".
Therefore, he had a loaded gun when stopped by Police, which is a dangerous position to be in, especially when you jump out of the taxi for whatever reason.
You may think the gun was left in the taxi, but there is absolutely no evidence of that, apart from a conspiracy theory.
Duggan got out of the vehicle, and threw the gun, to get rid of evidence.
What there is no evidence of is Duggan throwing the gun. We know it was in the taxi, so in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, that's where it remained.
I know the reasons for doing it. I'm pointing out it is done.
You're trying to suggest it isn't done by pointing to the absurdity of everyone copying everything down word for word. You don't actually think I meant that do you?
I do think you meant that, hence once loads disagreed you moved onto the redactions within the flip chart which was also argued as to why that's there.
You completely misunderstood it and rather than just put your hands up and admit you got this one wrong you try multiple ways to use it to support your claims.
What there is no evidence of is Duggan throwing the gun. We know it was in the taxi, so in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, that's where it remained.
There is also no evidence of of any officer planting it either, therefore we cannot assume they did
Comments
V53 caused himself to believe lives were in danger. W70 had exactly the same view as him and all he saw was a flight risk.
I'm at the stage where the above looks like simplistic bollocks :kitty:
V53 says he even had time to re-assess the situation between shots 1 and 2, and still determined that Duggan was holding a gun - even describing it in detail, a description which matched the found article. Yet the inquest jury decided there was no gun in Duggan's hand.
You do the math.
Pretty much everything.
You have clearly never been in any sort of ongoing incident to make a statement like that. No one sees and hears everything that happens exactly the same, and perceptions can vary.
That is why some Officers statements were not the same as others, and negates this ongoing nonsense that they all copy their statements from a flip chart. If they did, they'd say the same wouldn't they?
That makes sense if we are talking about the truth. If the thing being spoken of is nonsense in the first place, or lets give the benefit of the doubt, misunderstood, then that passage is irrelevant.
Remarkable that no gun was in Duggan's hand at the time he was shot, but V53 was still able to describe the found item in detail before he'd even seen it. Yes, I'm sorry, we're back to inconvenient facts again.
The above is what people who were still at stages 1 & 2 would say.
Maths !!! FFS it's Maths !!!
And that is what conspiracy theorists would say. it's easier than accepting that they are wrong.
I like to say it the American way
Detail? He described the basic format of a handgun, which covers pretty much all of them.
Duggan had the gun, unless we are back to that conspiracy theory that it was planted.
And, the Police statements differ here, so how does that figure with this theory they all copied their statements from a flip chart?
Exactly! W70 saw a flight risk. V53 saw a threat to life. That's all I'm saying...
They could hardly all say they saw the gun knowing full well it wasn't there. Credulity was stretched enough when W70 piped up with his 'gun shaped object'.
They all say the taxi was gold. They all say they would have seen the gun if Duggan had thrown it from the taxi. They all say Duggan reached towards his waistband...
Are you denying they all sat in front of a flip chart to write their statements?
When? Nobody saw it until it turned up on the grass... as predicted by V59!
You can throw the word 'conspiracy' around all you like. It doesn't make the evidence go away.
It has been explained how this works. They need detail, such as locations etc, because these things don't always happen where everyone involved knows where they are.
Basic scene setting is an aspect, and that is not sinister.
When it comes down to specific areas of evidence, then people can only record what they saw, heard, and did.
In the middle of something as stressful as that, incidental things, such as car colours can be missed. Then if the wrong colour is mentioned, it is jumped on with great delight to prove they are lying.
The fact remains, if they were all copying their statements from a flip chart, as you claim to be common practice, the statements would all be the same.
You continue to say this, despite those of us with actual experience of these things, never having encountered such a system.
Whenever I've been on operations, my statement would relate to what I could say, but talking through it with others would often help me recall bits I'd forgotten, and that's what this is about.
Yes, we know the conspiracy theory. You've been bleating on for pages about why HF wasn't arrested when he handed over the gun, now you're going back to he didn't have the gun. Which is it?
Don't be facetious. You know full well I think the gun was left in the taxi.
Based on?
I know the reasons for doing it. I'm pointing out it is done.
You're trying to suggest it isn't done by pointing to the absurdity of everyone copying everything down word for word. You don't actually think I meant that do you?
I said Duggan had the gun, and you said "when, nobody saw it".
Therefore, he had a loaded gun when stopped by Police, which is a dangerous position to be in, especially when you jump out of the taxi for whatever reason.
You may think the gun was left in the taxi, but there is absolutely no evidence of that, apart from a conspiracy theory.
Duggan got out of the vehicle, and threw the gun, to get rid of evidence.
Well say what you mean then.
You said it is common practice to copy statements from a flip chart. It isn't, and the example you give isn't a statement on a flip chart at all. it is key points, for reference.
A statement is a very different thing to what you showed.
They either copy statements from a flip chart, or they don't. The fact the statements differ show they didn't here, and those with experience of it state it is not common practice at all, which is what you claimed.
We have gone through this several times.
For what you are saying to be true all officers would have had to have been in on it. They would have had to do all of this in public view, taken the gun from the taxi and to nearby location. They would have had to do this AND then explain how it had got there.
It would have been much easier for them to plant the gun, near to the body, under the car, or pretty much anywhere than where you suggested.
They wouldn't have been able to discuss it over radio as that's all recorded, so unless they have invented telepathy it would have been difficult for them all to do it.
Ultimately however the very fact that the gun did not need to be in his hand at the time of the shot to justify the shooting means the very argument falls flat.
Up until today I wasn't sure that Rasfas was into conspiracy theories. Until 2 comments used recently.
The first being the statement that officers copying statement from a flip chart is common practise. Several people immediately jumped on that as untrue and have given credible responses to disprove every element of the argument. Only for finally Rasfas to make the statement that he didn't mean it how it initially come across. When you consider several accusations about the flip chart and what was actually written on it have been thrown in as well...
Then was the comment that those of us that disagree attack the posters in order to discredit them in front of the casual readers of this thread, which is possibly the most absurd thing I have ever read on this site.
What there is no evidence of is Duggan throwing the gun. We know it was in the taxi, so in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, that's where it remained.
I do think you meant that, hence once loads disagreed you moved onto the redactions within the flip chart which was also argued as to why that's there.
You completely misunderstood it and rather than just put your hands up and admit you got this one wrong you try multiple ways to use it to support your claims.
There is also no evidence of of any officer planting it either, therefore we cannot assume they did