There needs to be some sci-babble reason at some stage why this was okay here and not in general. Quantum fluctuations producing macro-level indeterminacy in the shrinking universe, or whatnot. No biggie.
Actually, I believe my earlier post does this quite nicely. If you basically say that the chances of this kind of causality loop are incredibly small (which could potentially be argued) then you're safe. It doesn't matter how small the chances are in this case because the alternative was that the universe ceases to exist. That means that the only outcome possible for the universe, no matter how improbable, is the one that happened.
It's like the infinite improbability drive
Unless we get another situation which threatens the existence of the entire universe we should be safe from any more such improbabilities
Of course there's the other thing in which the Doctor is not usually allowed to cross his own timeline (certainly not to materially affect it). It's one of the laws of time which the Timelords usually like to enforce to prevent the possibility of a catastrophic collapse of the space-time continuum.
Steven Moffat is interested in the story telling, and is happy to use sci-fi-babble to sort out paradoxes that get in the way of the story telling.
This is wonderful, for the most part, but I think he's fallen into a potential trap with this Pandorica escape. It's the exact equivalent of "and with one bound he was free".
It's a way of resolving a plot line in a way that's nonspecific to the plot.
This means that any DW plot could be resolved this way.
All that torture that David Tennant went through could have been avoided if he'd gone back and told Bernard Cribbins not to go through the door. Etc. etc. etc.
It's a cheat, but it's proof of the writing quality that it didn't feel like one at the time.
There needs to be some sci-babble reason at some stage why this was okay here and not in general. Quantum fluctuations producing macro-level indeterminacy in the shrinking universe, or whatnot. No biggie.
Catseye I respect your view but I've been watching this show on and off for 35 years and the way the Doc escaped is the lamest thing I've ever seen... It amounts to quite simply 'I can get out of this because I can...' sorry but it's not for me and Ste Moffat has blotted his copybook ... As a very intelligent writer he should reflect on that....
Steven Moffat is interested in the story telling, and is happy to use sci-fi-babble to sort out paradoxes that get in the way of the story telling.
This is wonderful, for the most part, but I think he's fallen into a potential trap with this Pandorica escape. It's the exact equivalent of "and with one bound he was free".
It's a way of resolving a plot line in a way that's nonspecific to the plot.
This means that any DW plot could be resolved this way.
All that torture that David Tennant went through could have been avoided if he'd gone back and told Bernard Cribbins not to go through the door. Etc. etc. etc.
It's a cheat, but it's proof of the writing quality that it didn't feel like one at the time.
There needs to be some sci-babble reason at some stage why this was okay here and not in general. Quantum fluctuations producing macro-level indeterminacy in the shrinking universe, or whatnot. No biggie.
It did feel like one to me.
And I wouldn't mind some sci-fi babble, it's what we always get in DW, but it seems to me that now we're more likely to get "close your eyes and wish and it will come true" or similar.
Catseye I respect your view but I've been watching this show on and off for 35 years and the way the Doc escaped is the lamest thing I've ever seen... It amounts to quite simply 'I can get out of this because I can...' sorry but it's not for me and Ste Moffat has blotted his copybook ... As a very intelligent writer he should reflect on that....
yeah i'm sure he;ll have sleepless nights over your opinion.
yeah i'm sure he;ll have sleepless nights over your opinion.
No he won't have sleepless nights because he's too arrogant to care. As long as the BBC keep paying him to write the same old story over and over again he's happy.
Except that entire time loop of the Doctor escaping and rescuing himself is all the same outcome.
That is NOT what I have a problem with. It's what happens before the loop occurs that is the problem.
As for the rest, you are right, the show has its own set of physics. Unfortunately every rule we have been told about it is broken at some point to aid the plot and moreover, sometimes rules are just applied without giving us an explanation at all. Hence the reason why some shout "deux ex machina", "plothole", etc.
anyway, I give up. This is just not my kind of show any more, too many things left unexplained and left open to "magic".
As for the rest, you are right, the show has its own set of physics. Unfortunately every rule we have been told about it is broken at some point to aid the plot and moreover, sometimes rules are just applied without giving us an explanation at all. Hence the reason why some shout "deux ex machina", "plothole", etc.
anyway, I give up. This is just not my kind of show any more, too many things left unexplained and left open to "magic".
I can totally get why some people are crying "foul" from a plot-device cop-out point of view but, personally, I just love these sort of time-travel paradoxes.
The first one I encountered was years ago reading one of the Stainless Steel Rat books by Harry Harrison. The protagonist basically went back in time to help his past self do something. I can't remember exactly what it was, a warning maybe, or a providing him with a password which he only knew because his future self had told him what it was. I just thought the whole concept was brilliant.
It's certainly not something that should happen too often in Doctor Who but, as a one off, I think the universe ending was a good enough excuse for the Doctor to break the rules
And I wouldn't mind some sci-fi babble, it's what we always get in DW, but it seems to me that now we're more likely to get "close your eyes and wish and it will come true" or similar.
I agree with allen_who.
Pretty much sums it all up for me!
Mind, it was still enjoyable but hardly brilliant imo.
Overall, I found SM's stories in past series much more brillant than what has come out of this series. Which I generally have rated good, btw. But I am afraid this fairytale theme hasn't been working for me, as such.
Did it really need to end on a poor cliffhanger,and leave todays queen out of it.if you don't like the way its going don't buy the dvds,then the bbc will realise that the fans of all ages want a better show before its fully ruined.
Did it really need to end on a poor cliffhanger,and leave todays queen out of it.if you don't like the way its going don't buy the dvds,then the bbc will realise that the fans of all ages want a better show before its fully ruined.
Okay, it's not a cliffhanger - that would require them to be left in peril, and there was no indication as to which Queen it was.
No he won't have sleepless nights because he's too arrogant to care. As long as the BBC keep paying him to write the same old story over and over again he's happy.
Do you have anything to support your assertion that he's arrogant? Do you know the man personally or something? Because otherwise, this is just you projecting your dislike of the show onto its producer. Which is a little unfair.
I can totally get why some people are crying "foul" from a plot-device cop-out point of view but, personally, I just love these sort of time-travel paradoxes.
The first one I encountered was years ago reading one of the Stainless Steel Rat books by Harry Harrison. The protagonist basically went back in time to help his past self do something. I can't remember exactly what it was, a warning maybe, or a providing him with a password which he only knew because his future self had told him what it was. I just thought the whole concept was brilliant.
It's certainly not something that should happen too often in Doctor Who but, as a one off, I think the universe ending was a good enough excuse for the Doctor to break the rules
The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World, yes? I loved those books. Good old Slippery Jim.:)
I think Blink was such a wonderful story which beautifully exploited the seeming paradox in time trave. We have our pre-conceived ideas of the order of time which are thrown into confusion by the possibility of time travel. The story in blink was a fantastic example of this ... to all intents and purposes a natural conversation occuring ... but occuring over different time points that were linked together by the possibility of time travel and produce outcomes that seem like a paradox.
The Doctor's escape from the Pandorica? I wouldn't class this as a paradox or even a plot-hole as such. To my mind it is just a mistake. I think the writers thought they could appeal to the predestination paradox (and so its not a plot-hole or one of those Deus Ex thingies) but they just cocked it up. The Doctor cannot have been outside the box in order to pass on the screwdriver (never mind the fact that the Doctor himself couldn't even open it before when he tried and yet Rory opens it up faster than a tin of tuna) as he needed the screwdriver to be out the box. That sequence of events cannot happen if the only way he would be out the box is via the event that is caused by him being out the box.
What could have been plauisble is some random event that allowed him to be out the box temporarily and so he could head back and pass on said screwdriver. That would then lead to the paradox in its standard form. Otherwise I think the writers have tied themselves up in knots and made a mistake.
I think Blink was such a wonderful story which beautifully exploited the seeming paradox in time trave. We have our pre-conceived ideas of the order of time which are thrown into confusion by the possibility of time travel. The story in blink was a fantastic example of this ... to all intents and purposes a natural conversation occuring ... but occuring over different time points that were linked together by the possibility of time travel and produce outcomes that seem like a paradox.
The Doctor's escape from the Pandorica? I wouldn't class this as a paradox or even a plot-hole as such. To my mind it is just a mistake. I think the writers thought they could appeal to the predestination paradox (and so its not a plot-hole or one of those Deus Ex thingies) but they just cocked it up. The Doctor cannot have been outside the box in order to pass on the screwdriver (never mind the fact that the Doctor himself couldn't even open it before when he tried and yet Rory opens it up faster than a tin of tuna) as he needed the screwdriver to be out the box. That sequence of events cannot happen if the only way he would be out the box is via the event that is caused by him being out the box.
What could have been plauisble is some random event that allowed him to be out the box temporarily and so he could head back and pass on said screwdriver. That would then lead to the paradox in its standard form. Otherwise I think the writers have tied themselves up in knots and made a mistake.
Completely agree! Predestination wot not! It can't be if he never got out! He can't change events if he never gets out to change them. That being said, it didn't spoil my enjoyment of the episode.
Let's just pretend someone (ie River) placed the time vortex manipulator in the Pandorica, which the Doctor activated a second before it closed & he went into stasis. There, problem solved!
I wouldn't mind but an easy and plausible alternative to what they did would be quite simply for Rory to go back down to the Pandorica to find the Doc but can't find him anywhere but he does find the Doc's sonic screwdriver on the floor.
He starts fidgeting with the sonic and turns it on... at this point Doc sends a telepathic message to Rory to point it at the Pandorica (or if you don't like this then Rory just points it as the Pandorica anyway.)
Yes, I know the Sonic was in the Doc's pocket but it would be easy to just say he dropped it as the Autons dragged him into the Pandorica...
Completely agree! Predestination wot not! It can't be if he never got out! He can't change events if he never gets out to change them.
He can, according to the most commonly accepted theories of time travel. This kind of paradox is not a new idea, it's a common one in science fiction and has been for decades. I don't understand why people are having such a problem with it.
He can, according to the most commonly accepted theories of time travel. This kind of paradox is not a new idea, it's a common one in science fiction and has been for decades. I don't understand why people are having such a problem with it.
I'm sure it is, but I haven't come across it before. It's a rubbish get out clause. There will never be any suspense in a 2 parter again if this is what he can do, without properly getting out of the trap/situation! "Oh don't worry, I got out later and freed myself earlier". I'm not being anal about it, it is just a plot hole (IMHO), but I haven't lost any sleep over it, or enjoyed it any less
He can, according to the most commonly accepted theories of time travel. This kind of paradox is not a new idea, it's a common one in science fiction and has been for decades. I don't understand why people are having such a problem with it.
I'm inclined to agree with this.
I do think, however, that this should probably be the last time that Moffat should incorporate an ontological paradox in his stories.
This time around, it seems the majority quite liked it, where as some probably didn't mind it as an 'idea', but perhaps not as a cliffhanger get-out device.
But the next time, and the time after that?
It just strikes me as something that could get very tedious and very annoying, very quickly...
He can, according to the most commonly accepted theories of time travel. This kind of paradox is not a new idea, it's a common one in science fiction and has been for decades. I don't understand why people are having such a problem with it.
It really jarred in this episode, and whether or not is a common theory of time travel, it simply doesn't work.
the doctor would needed to have escaped eventually to come back and tell Rory to help him escape now rather than later.
It was extremely lazy writing.
The other time paradoxes used before in Blink and The Lodger were ok as these are plausible. The Big Bang was not.
This series started off badly, showed promise towards the end, set up the last episode fantastically with the Pandorica Opens, and then shows an element of writer's block with the worst resolutions in Doctor Who's history.
I won't be buying the boxset this year, as quite frankly I don't think this series has been worth the money.
(never mind the fact that the Doctor himself couldn't even open it before when he tried and yet Rory opens it up faster than a tin of tuna).
He never tried to open it. He was attempting to discover what was inside (without opening it) wasn't he? It started to open itself as soon as he (of Amy) touched it.
It really jarred in this episode, and whether or not is a common theory of time travel, it simply doesn't work.
the doctor would needed to have escaped eventually to come back and tell Rory to help him escape now rather than later.
It was extremely lazy writing.
Using an accepted plot device that ost sci-fi fans would be familiar with from a dozen other examples is not 'lazy writing'.
The other time paradoxes used before in Blink and The Lodger were ok as these are plausible. The Big Bang was not.
er, it was (in theory) exactly the same as the one used in Blink...
This series started off badly, showed promise towards the end, set up the last episode fantastically with the Pandorica Opens, and then shows an element of writer's block with the worst resolutions in Doctor Who's history.
I won't be buying the boxset this year, as quite frankly I don't think this series has been worth the money.
Comments
Actually, I believe my earlier post does this quite nicely. If you basically say that the chances of this kind of causality loop are incredibly small (which could potentially be argued) then you're safe. It doesn't matter how small the chances are in this case because the alternative was that the universe ceases to exist. That means that the only outcome possible for the universe, no matter how improbable, is the one that happened.
It's like the infinite improbability drive
Unless we get another situation which threatens the existence of the entire universe we should be safe from any more such improbabilities
Of course there's the other thing in which the Doctor is not usually allowed to cross his own timeline (certainly not to materially affect it). It's one of the laws of time which the Timelords usually like to enforce to prevent the possibility of a catastrophic collapse of the space-time continuum.
Oh wait...
Regards
Julian
Catseye I respect your view but I've been watching this show on and off for 35 years and the way the Doc escaped is the lamest thing I've ever seen... It amounts to quite simply 'I can get out of this because I can...' sorry but it's not for me and Ste Moffat has blotted his copybook ... As a very intelligent writer he should reflect on that....
It did feel like one to me.
And I wouldn't mind some sci-fi babble, it's what we always get in DW, but it seems to me that now we're more likely to get "close your eyes and wish and it will come true" or similar.
I agree with allen_who.
Is it not clockwise???? I thought it would be some kind of clever paradox animation but it seems straight forwards enough?
No, you can make it go either way if you try.
Sometimes it changes on its own if you watch it long enough.
I shall try my dear... I think it's brilliant if people see it different ha ha
yeah i'm sure he;ll have sleepless nights over your opinion.
That's why I'm on here, to give an opinion. And I don't believe I've been disrespectful to him. A tact you might wish to learn, no?
No he won't have sleepless nights because he's too arrogant to care. As long as the BBC keep paying him to write the same old story over and over again he's happy.
as i am. just bemused as to why you think he should 'reflect on' your opinion . why should he give a stuff what you think .
That is NOT what I have a problem with. It's what happens before the loop occurs that is the problem.
As for the rest, you are right, the show has its own set of physics. Unfortunately every rule we have been told about it is broken at some point to aid the plot and moreover, sometimes rules are just applied without giving us an explanation at all. Hence the reason why some shout "deux ex machina", "plothole", etc.
anyway, I give up. This is just not my kind of show any more, too many things left unexplained and left open to "magic".
I can totally get why some people are crying "foul" from a plot-device cop-out point of view but, personally, I just love these sort of time-travel paradoxes.
The first one I encountered was years ago reading one of the Stainless Steel Rat books by Harry Harrison. The protagonist basically went back in time to help his past self do something. I can't remember exactly what it was, a warning maybe, or a providing him with a password which he only knew because his future self had told him what it was. I just thought the whole concept was brilliant.
It's certainly not something that should happen too often in Doctor Who but, as a one off, I think the universe ending was a good enough excuse for the Doctor to break the rules
Mind, it was still enjoyable but hardly brilliant imo.
Overall, I found SM's stories in past series much more brillant than what has come out of this series. Which I generally have rated good, btw. But I am afraid this fairytale theme hasn't been working for me, as such.
Okay, it's not a cliffhanger - that would require them to be left in peril, and there was no indication as to which Queen it was.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AndTheAdventureContinues
The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World, yes? I loved those books. Good old Slippery Jim.:)
I think Blink was such a wonderful story which beautifully exploited the seeming paradox in time trave. We have our pre-conceived ideas of the order of time which are thrown into confusion by the possibility of time travel. The story in blink was a fantastic example of this ... to all intents and purposes a natural conversation occuring ... but occuring over different time points that were linked together by the possibility of time travel and produce outcomes that seem like a paradox.
The Doctor's escape from the Pandorica? I wouldn't class this as a paradox or even a plot-hole as such. To my mind it is just a mistake. I think the writers thought they could appeal to the predestination paradox (and so its not a plot-hole or one of those Deus Ex thingies) but they just cocked it up. The Doctor cannot have been outside the box in order to pass on the screwdriver (never mind the fact that the Doctor himself couldn't even open it before when he tried and yet Rory opens it up faster than a tin of tuna) as he needed the screwdriver to be out the box. That sequence of events cannot happen if the only way he would be out the box is via the event that is caused by him being out the box.
What could have been plauisble is some random event that allowed him to be out the box temporarily and so he could head back and pass on said screwdriver. That would then lead to the paradox in its standard form. Otherwise I think the writers have tied themselves up in knots and made a mistake.
Completely agree! Predestination wot not! It can't be if he never got out! He can't change events if he never gets out to change them. That being said, it didn't spoil my enjoyment of the episode.
Let's just pretend someone (ie River) placed the time vortex manipulator in the Pandorica, which the Doctor activated a second before it closed & he went into stasis. There, problem solved!
He starts fidgeting with the sonic and turns it on... at this point Doc sends a telepathic message to Rory to point it at the Pandorica (or if you don't like this then Rory just points it as the Pandorica anyway.)
Yes, I know the Sonic was in the Doc's pocket but it would be easy to just say he dropped it as the Autons dragged him into the Pandorica...
Job done....
He can, according to the most commonly accepted theories of time travel. This kind of paradox is not a new idea, it's a common one in science fiction and has been for decades. I don't understand why people are having such a problem with it.
I'm sure it is, but I haven't come across it before. It's a rubbish get out clause. There will never be any suspense in a 2 parter again if this is what he can do, without properly getting out of the trap/situation! "Oh don't worry, I got out later and freed myself earlier". I'm not being anal about it, it is just a plot hole (IMHO), but I haven't lost any sleep over it, or enjoyed it any less
I'm inclined to agree with this.
I do think, however, that this should probably be the last time that Moffat should incorporate an ontological paradox in his stories.
This time around, it seems the majority quite liked it, where as some probably didn't mind it as an 'idea', but perhaps not as a cliffhanger get-out device.
But the next time, and the time after that?
It just strikes me as something that could get very tedious and very annoying, very quickly...
But I'm sure Moffat realises that already.
Regards,
Cypher
It really jarred in this episode, and whether or not is a common theory of time travel, it simply doesn't work.
the doctor would needed to have escaped eventually to come back and tell Rory to help him escape now rather than later.
It was extremely lazy writing.
The other time paradoxes used before in Blink and The Lodger were ok as these are plausible. The Big Bang was not.
This series started off badly, showed promise towards the end, set up the last episode fantastically with the Pandorica Opens, and then shows an element of writer's block with the worst resolutions in Doctor Who's history.
I won't be buying the boxset this year, as quite frankly I don't think this series has been worth the money.
Ah, well.